Best and worst power changes?

[Tzigone]

Or power creep, whichever you prefer. Some got entirely new powers, sometimes the powers they already had changed, and sometimes they lost some powers. I'm only referring to lasting changes here, not one-offs or new powers that quickly disappeared.

So, what you some that you think were good and bad ideas?

Superman is the classic case. I'm so mired in his later powersets, that I can only sort of look at the older, lesser ones in an almost academic sense. I was introduced to Superman through movies, cartoons, and general pop culture from birth, so it is to some degree, just what he's supposed to be. Besides that, though, I can say there are certain types of stories that his higher power level enabled, and other types of stories - or at least actions - that didn't work anymore after he got powerful enough.

Raven is another one who got more powers. While I watched the Teen Titans cartoon, I've mostly forgotten it, and was reintroduced to the character through reading the 1980s series, and I think she works better with powers she had when I was introduced to her. You'll see that theme a lot from me. But I don't think I'd call her increased powers anywhere near the worst.

Kon - now there's one where I'll say his increased powers were a severe detriment. To me they are part and parcel of making him a Clark clone (rather literally, at least 50%), which I dislike a lot. But also his original power of TTK was a lot more unique and fun to read as something different and it enabled some vulnerabilities, which I think is a good idea.

I'll go opposite on Fire, and pick after Invasion. Perhaps because I haven't read much of Bea before the changeup. I admit, my preference on this is mostly because I like the visual. My feelings are not strong on the matter, though.

Very much against speed thief, electrokinesis , and scouts. They're already really, super powerful because of their speed, and don't need more additions.

[Gaius]

I'd put Batman's "prep time" power under the worst changes.

[caj]

Nice thread idea, Tzigone

I remember in Justice League of America back in the Satellite era (JLA 191), Zatanna's powers were reduced to her only having magic powers that were element based or something like that.

While I admit that she was becoming too powerful, the reduced powers were sort of a letdown at the time.

[Riv86672]

Not powers, but Green Arriw ditching his trick arsenal for traditional arrows under Mike Grell was pretty cool.

Speed steal for the Flash I’ve always found ridiculous (if only for how overused it’s become on versus forums). He’s already the fastest man alive. It would be like the Hulk developing strength drain.

[HandofPrometheus]

Fire- The nostril flame thing was stupid and ridiculously corny. I wouldn't have a problem if her Fire was still mystical but the whole breathing thing looked dumb. Plus, she looks visually appealing and stands out with her modern day powers.

[achilles]

It's largely forgotten now, well, like a lot of Power Girl stuff, but way back in the day before she was restored to her rightful place as a Kryptonian, her powers...sometimes changed, without explanation. There was a one off power that allowed her to fly other people...alongside her, without touching them, which she used in a very early issue of BOP to fly Black Canary. She also exhibited a power shown in the art, but not referred to in dialog where she somehow generated an explosion. Another one off power. Then there were the sudden new unexplained weaknesses that PAD gave her after being forced to by DC for some reason. All pretty bad since they were unexplained, and largey either one offs, or used for about two issues.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I'd put Batman's "prep time" power under the worst changes.

Is that a change when that guy used to have shark repellant for the right occasion?

[The Darknight Detective]

Is that a change when that guy used to have shark repellant for the right occasion?

Batman has always been about prep time to some level. To not be would be asinine, IMO.

[NaVi]

Is that a change when that guy used to have shark repellant for the right occasion?

Before it was anti sharks, now it is anti gods.

[Korath]

The Signal's current dark powers. They aren't bad per se, and are fitting for a Bat-family meta... but they are a downgrade for me compared to his light powers which made him more unique and linked to many an Immortal, which opened plenty of possibilities for Duke as a solo character.

[Adekis]

Or power creep, whichever you prefer. Some got entirely new powers, sometimes the powers they already had changed, and sometimes they lost some powers. I'm only referring to lasting changes here, not one-offs or new powers that quickly disappeared.

So, what you some that you think were good and bad ideas?

Superman is the classic case. I'm so mired in his later powersets, that I can only sort of look at the older, lesser ones in an almost academic sense. I was introduced to Superman through movies, cartoons, and general pop culture from birth, so it is to some degree, just what he's supposed to be. Besides that, though, I can say there are certain types of stories that his higher power level enabled, and other types of stories - or at least actions - that didn't work anymore after he got powerful enough.

This is a really cool thread idea.

Alright, I'm a huge Superman fan. He's the single DC character I'm most invested in, and the one whose power fluctuations I'm most familiar with. There's a commonly stated untruth that Superman was weaker in the Golden Age, and he was in some ways, but the fact is, nothing could hurt him back then. He might not be able to breathe in space or time travel at will yet, but he could tank a nuclear explosion without any worries except how to stop being radioactive afterward. The more contemporary trend of him getting slugged and going flying more often than he tanks a hit, was decades away. Superman's powers increased slowly over the years to keep pace with the trend that he can take anything, do anything, so he got stronger over time, and yeah, during the Silver Age, sometimes it was to the point of ridiculousness, but overall I liked it.

1971's "Kryptonite Nevermore" story was the first big attempt to lessen Superman's powers. It worked okay, but other writers creeped him back up here and there, mostly because they weren't playing ball with the concept of the downgrade. The next was the '86 reboot. After that, you got a lot of writers and editors saying that they were less interested in what Superman could do, than in what he couldn't do. That basically brings us up to now, when Superman's powers are extremely inconsistent and you've got some fans claiming that he's actually the weakest member of the League, and where I thought that Man of Steel and Justice League showing Superman as by far the strongest was a bit of a coup.

I think there's definitely a balancing act. I actually like a relatively scaled back Superman. You'll often find that in pseudo-Golden Age stories like Superman: The Man of Steel # 80-82, early parts of Morrison's Action Comics, the "DCYou" Truth arc, Superman Smashes the Klan, or in Tom DeHaven's super-bildungsroman, It's Superman, but I think that kind of scaled-back Superman doesn't necessarily work in the context of the broader DC Universe. In sharp contrast to the idea some have, that other heroes need to be able to keep pace with Superman, I think Superman always needs to stay ahead of the pack, needs to be the Greatest Super-Hero, because, well, he's Superman. If he's not the strongest, or the fastest, he at least needs to still be able to beat other heroes in a fight. But that said, being that strong isn't necessarily the best thing for him as a character. So... what's the best solution?

I guess I'm gonna go ahead and say there's no easy answer, but I'm still gonna just cop out and point to the DCEU anyway, because they make Superman strong and fast as hell, "stronger than a planet," and it's just awesome to watch.

Kon - now there's one where I'll say his increased powers were a severe detriment. To me they are part and parcel of making him a Clark clone (rather literally, at least 50%), which I dislike a lot. But also his original power of TTK was a lot more unique and fun to read as something different and it enabled some vulnerabilities, which I think is a good idea.

As for Kon, I completely agree. I think that the TTK was a cool and unique element to his character, and I too am less interested in the 50% human Kon than in the "100% human but we tried to fake it" version. It's one of those things I just gotta get used to though, so I'm glad it doesn't bug me that much. I think every version of Kon to make it off the page has followed the "half-Luthor, half-Superman" trend, and so it's pretty ingrained into the character's DNA at this point - no pun intended.

[Tzigone]

There's a commonly stated untruth that Superman was weaker in the Golden Age, and he was in some ways, but the fact is, nothing could hurt him back then. He might not be able to breathe in space or time travel at will yet, but he could tank a nuclear explosion without any worries except how to stop being radioactive afterward.

Well, it depends on when in the golden age. As clearly indicated at first "nothing short of a bursting shell could penetrate his skin." Got knocked off a boat in Action #2 (needed to brace against rail). In Action #4, he indicates a speeding train could kill him. He definitely did have vulnerabilities. Now, they may not have been consistent then, but they aren't now, either.

but I think that kind of scaled-back Superman doesn't necessarily work in the context of the broader DC Universe.

I agree with that, for the most part.

If he's not the strongest, or the fastest, he at least needs to still be able to beat other heroes in a fight.

I really, strongly, dislike pitting the heroes against each other and establishing that one must be able to beat the other. He needs to be one of the more impressive, yes, to evoke the reaction he does in the masses in modern DC. But this idea that he must always, every time, be able to beat every other hero is just not one I agree with. And not one I think needs to be brought up in the comics. I got bored with seeing heroes fight each other long, long ago.

I guess I'm gonna go ahead and say there's no easy answer, but I'm still gonna just cop out and point to the DCEU anyway, because they make Superman strong and fast as hell, "stronger than a planet," and it's just awesome to watch.

Sorry, nope. Even if he's top shelf, I hate planet-moving strength. Mountain-moving is fine. But I don't like a hero that essentially can't be hurt without destroying the entire world.

Just like I hate the notion of a JL that would be better if it was Batman and bunch of Amazos, I dislike one where everyone else is explicitly inferior and Superman could easily handle it all himself. Thought that does bring up the downsides of a shared universe (character that shine in their solo comics suddenly lose skill or intelligence in team comics - one of those solo heroes handled a similar situation all on his/her own a couple months ago, but now it takes a half dozen heroes to accomplish it). Also, less popular heroes are given less page time, and so become perceived by the audience as more useless which cycles around to writers then writing them as basically losers if they use them in future. Even though they were absolutely capable in their rare solo outings before that. Popularity hierarchy becomes in-universe hierarchy, too (at least in DC - been years since I read Marvel, so can't say there), and I don't like that.

[Dred]

Giving any speedster actual lightning powers. The absolutely stupidest thing.

[Sutekh]

Fire- The nostril flame thing was stupid and ridiculously corny. I wouldn't have a problem if her Fire was still mystical but the whole breathing thing looked dumb. Plus, she looks visually appealing and stands out with her modern day powers.

While the fire coming out of her nose was indeed just awful, she could also breathe it out of her mouth, which looked far less silly, and as 'Green Fury' she could breathe hot flame, cold flame, create illusions, change her costume, or fly.

Then Giffen got his hands on her, changed her name to 'Fire' and she could create a six inch tongue of flame from her mouth.

Worst power change, ever.

After that, she got upgraded again, and turned into a green Human Torch. (Catch on fire, fly, shoot fire blasts.) So terribly unoriginal, and, IMO, a huge downgrade from where she started, all those years ago, in Super Friends.

[K7P5V]

For me, the worst would be the "new powers" Jason Todd displayed in...

Nightwing #122