what makes a good Superman villain?

[ngroove]

I second this.

My question for this thread: What makes a good Superman villainess?

Superman has so few. Batman has better & more villainesses than most heroes...except Wonder Woman. Superman's been around the longest of all superheroes...where are his distaff foes?

A Good Villain should be just a Good Villain, period - whether be man - or if it can be pulled off - woman.

Whenever one thinks up traditional, crooked, rotten, remorseless, even murderous, "bad guys", that's what it is, bad guys.

However, it would take far more creativity and effort to make a credible lady criminal on a male hero title - simply because she would or could provide "tension" - see Catwoman in Batman, or Star Sapphire in Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), or as far back as Harlequin in Green Lantern (Alan Scott), or the "Femme Fatales" of the Spirit, who just as "plays" with him as much as they try to kill him.

For one, for starters, sooner or later, conscience could be placed in her.

I suppose, Superman's got Livewire, but she's always been one-dimensional as a supervillain, hot tempered and electrical powers. And when given up to three dimensions, she's walked the path of becoming a hero, even valuable ally of Superman, thus the conscience.

Another I've always felt was flat, one-note when as a villain, or more like a walking ancient curse, Silver Banshee; but was much more enjoyably read to me as three-dimensional, actually felt like a person, when she, Siobhan Smythe the human, manages control of the curse, even became Supergirl's friend in New 52 Supergirl.

[Kuwagaton]

If you squint and smudge, sure, you can group them all by something like how they contrast with aspects of his personality. But that's a small box. Admittedly Flash, Spider-Man, and chiefly Batman prove that a small box can be great. You can weave Joker, or R'as and Scarecrow simultaneously, into the origin story. Or you can team up in many combinations. You don't have to worry about a mold breaker like Mxy and you can elevator pitch a Sinister Six or Rogues group with an ease unknown to even Johns' Commercial Revenge Squad.

I like Superman villains because when they're on, they can make the box seem too big to see the walls. The one obvious trait they need is persistence: what happens when you go head to head with Superman and lose? How do you answer a man who has everything and does anything? With recurring villains the plots can be extravagant and nutty. They often morph in order to change their threat. Some have the ability to just reinvent their approach even if they don't change themselves. The top ones can do both well.

Power levels can be high but I think that's more likely to limit the villain. That's not really an interesting kind of persistence. I'd rather see a writer use a buffoon they just enjoy.

[marhawkman]

If you squint and smudge, sure, you can group them all by something like how they contrast with aspects of his personality. But that's a small box. Admittedly Flash, Spider-Man, and chiefly Batman prove that a small box can be great. You can weave Joker, or R'as and Scarecrow simultaneously, into the origin story. Or you can team up in many combinations. You don't have to worry about a mold breaker like Mxy and you can elevator pitch a Sinister Six or Rogues group with an ease unknown to even Johns' Commercial Revenge Squad.

I like Superman villains because when they're on, they can make the box seem too big to see the walls. The one obvious trait they need is persistence: what happens when you go head to head with Superman and lose? How do you answer a man who has everything and does anything? With recurring villains the plots can be extravagant and nutty. They often morph in order to change their threat. Some have the ability to just reinvent their approach even if they don't change themselves. The top ones can do both well.

Power levels can be high but I think that's more likely to limit the villain. That's not really an interesting kind of persistence. I'd rather see a writer use a buffoon they just enjoy.

I think this is why Zoners have been used so often. They have the power, and they are in other dimension where Superman often can't get at them. they're also effectively immortal since they don't age in the Zone.

[manwhohaseverything]

I fairly certain superman villains can be each equated to a deadly sin.
Pride=lex
Wrath=doomsday, superman
Gluttony =parasite
Envy=metallo
Lust=maxima(as villainous)
Greed=mongul. Admittedly superman does have lack of this.Greed can be for anything. Love, admiration, family, money... Etc anything. Superman doesn't want anything for himself. Which just makes him, a messiah.
Sloth=superman himself,because i can't find anyone else.You could say mxy because he seems to be wasting time playing around.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

But what makes a good Superman foe? there really doesn't seem to be much of a thru line with Superman rogues.

Firstly the so-called "through line" of Batman villains did not arrive fully formed, it evolved over time like everything. The same is with Spider-Man.

Writers have gone back and rounded up the rogues of Batman and Spider-Man over the years. Bad guys like Vulture never got an origin till the '80s. Octopus never got an origin till the '90s. In the case of Batman rogues, Joker's personality changes and alters decade-by-decade and similar stuff with other rogues.

The important quality that makes a villain good has nothing to do with the story or how much they serve as 101 Psych Term Papers. It has to do with design, with concept, with powers, how versatile they are, how much of a challenge (mental/physical/moral) they pose to the hero.

My favorite Superman enemies are Mr. Mxyzsptlk, Brainiac, and Bizarro. Those three villains pose the most versatile threat to Superman, you can do endless variations of different kinds of plots and schemes with any of them. They also are capable of challenging Superman on multiple levels. Conceptually and design wise, all three have got big appeals.

[PCN24454]

I second this.

My question for this thread: What makes a good Superman villainess?

Superman has so few. Batman has better & more villainesses than most heroes...except Wonder Woman. Superman's been around the longest of all superheroes...where are his distaff foes?

That's mostly because Superman was created before major villainesses were common. Newer superheroes like Danny Phantom and Ben 10 tend to fight female characters more regularly.

Even now, the reason why we don't consider the female villains that he has no good is because they're new.

[Ra-El]

A good villain should be able to challenge the hero without the need of some contrived reason why the hero don't solve the situation right away. What I mean is that the villains should be more Brainiac and less Luthor.

The most important thing, imo, are memorable stories, that when someone thinks about the villain they will remember those stories, and that is what a lot of Superman villains are lacking. But Superman himself, for past few years, or decade, is lacking some memorable stories. His enemies are more used by other heroes than on Superman comics while he is locked on endless and dull versions of the same crap with Lex.

[marhawkman]

That's mostly because Superman was created before major villainesses were common. Newer superheroes like Danny Phantom and Ben 10 tend to fight female characters more regularly.

Even now, the reason why we don't consider the female villains that he has no good is because they're new.

I'd say it's more that his most influential ones aren't. Female Zoners have been a thing since the Zone was created. But they never caught on as a main threat. Like Superman 2, three Zoners; Zod, Non, and Ursa, Zod is most memorable.

[Vordan]

A good villain should be able to challenge the hero without the need of some contrived reason why the hero don't solve the situation right away. What I mean is that the villains should be more Brainiac and less Luthor.

The most important thing, imo, are memorable stories, that when someone thinks about the villain they will remember those stories, and that is what a lot of Superman villains are lacking. But Superman himself, for past few years, or decade, is lacking some memorable stories. His enemies are more used by other heroes than on Superman comics while he is locked on endless and dull versions of the same crap with Lex.

He’s had some good ones, or at least ones that were well-recurved like Superman Smashes The Klan or Up in the Sky relatively recently.

[Jim Kelly]

Firstly the so-called "through line" of Batman villains did not arrive fully formed, it evolved over time like everything. The same is with Spider-Man.

They have a "through line?" I did not know that.

[Ra-El]

He’s had some good ones, or at least ones that were well-recurved like Superman Smashes The Klan or Up in the Sky relatively recently.

Oh yes, Superman Smashes The Klan is a great story, but I was talking more about in continuity, or at least in set up that more similar to the main universe. Something more like Court of Owls or The Trench. Also it doesn't help that almost every times one of his villains make a big appearance is in a JL story or event where Superman isn't important, like in the No Justice, when they used Brainiac and Superman is mostly wallpaper.

[Jim Kelly]

That's mostly because Superman was created before major villainesses were common. Newer superheroes like Danny Phantom and Ben 10 tend to fight female characters more regularly.

Even now, the reason why we don't consider the female villains that he has no good is because they're new.

You think so? There were some heroes in the 1940s that had strong female adversaries--the Spirit for one. The Man of Steel had a number of one-off femmes fatale over the years, never invited back for a return visit.

When the Ultra-Humanite became Delores Winters, that's when things started to get good. But they dropped Ultra as soon as that happened (maybe the new editor Whitney Ellsworth didn't like the implications). I think the Blonde Tigress--part of the League to Destroy Superman arc in the newspaper dailies--would have made a great continuing villainess.

Were they skittish about Superman beating up on women because of some internal editorial policy? Or maybe because Lois and Lana presented such challenges to the Action Ace, that didn't leave room for very many other women. I think Lois could easily have become Superman's number one foe, rather than his ally, if they had the nerve to insist on that.

[Vakanai]

What does Darkseid, Lex Luthor, and Brainiac all have in common? No hair on top of their head. Sure not all of his most notable foes are bald, but enough are.

[godisawesome]

I honestly think it’s simple: a good Superman villain has to challenge Superman. They have to take a character who’s got a good amount of his appeal in both power fantasies and wish fulfillment, and still somehow put him through his paces. That’s why the longest lasting villains in the modern era are either power fantasy-level villains or ruthless geniuses... and that’s why the more formulaic defeating them becomes, the more you see even these threats recede in popularity.

Basically, you need a villain who can provide a genuine conundrum that’s not stupid at the same time.

There’s a reason why STAS managed a pretty compelling episode and conflict out of a killer cop framing an innocent party and trying to cover it up.

We’re in a day and age where most people would roll their eyes and sigh at the old Silver Age standbys of making some goofy cover for a comic and having the writer desperately try and explain a it, usually by needless charades and red Kryptonite.

...But Clark Kent is a reporter, and honestly, we could use a few more mysteries in Superman to help make villains and antagonist stand out more.

[ngroove]

You think so? There were some heroes in the 1940s that had strong female adversaries--the Spirit for one. The Man of Steel had a number of one-off femmes fatale over the years, never invited back for a return visit.

When the Ultra-Humanite became Delores Winters, that's when things started to get good. But they dropped Ultra as soon as that happened (maybe the new editor Whitney Ellsworth didn't like the implications). I think the Blonde Tigress--part of the League to Destroy Superman arc in the newspaper dailies--would have made a great continuing villainess.

Were they skittish about Superman beating up on women because of some internal editorial policy? Or maybe because Lois and Lana presented such challenges to the Action Ace, that didn't leave room for very many other women. I think Lois could easily have become Superman's number one foe, rather than his ally, if they had the nerve to insist on that.

The problem with lady villains, is that usually (A) they could easily and probably will be used to seduce the male heroes, (B) That old "Cannot hit a lady" that would be made look bad to do if done so, (C) Defeating a lady by humiliation or "putting them in their place" would just as look bad to do so, (D) Women are usually not portrayed as evil, ruthless, or murderous as males, (E) are usually eventually turned into heroes or "complicated" vigilantes, based on beliefs that women are softer or has more of a conscience then men, (F) when new lady villains are made, the creators and readers would see them as "Women Villains" like a sensational kinky or pc quota filler, rather than Villains who happens to be women, and (G) Most would eventually quickly fade out, once their "gimmick" of being women criminals wears out.