what makes a good Superman villain?

[marhawkman]

The problem with lady villains, is that usually (A) they could easily and probably will be used to seduce the male heroes, (B) That old "Cannot hit a lady" that would be made look bad to do if done so, (C) Defeating a lady by humiliation or "putting them in their place" would just as look bad to do so, (D) Women are usually not portrayed as evil, ruthless, or murderous as males, (E) are usually eventually turned into heroes or "complicated" vigilantes, based on beliefs that women are softer or has more of a conscience then men, (F) when new lady villains are made, the creators and readers would see them as "Women Villains" like a sensational kinky or pc quota filler, rather than Villains who happens to be women, and (G) Most would eventually quickly fade out, once their "gimmick" of being women criminals wears out.

I've often suspected a sort of misguided chivalry. Lots of guys don't want to write a story where a guy beats up a woman, or where the woman genuinely deserves to be beaten senseless. How many female super have power sets centered around hand-to-hand combat?

[scary harpy]

I've often suspected a sort of misguided chivalry. Lots of guys don't want to write a story where a guy beats up a woman, or where the woman genuinely deserves to be beaten senseless. How many female super have power sets centered around hand-to-hand combat?

Faora 10 characters

[Sutekh]

The ultimate through line with Clark is "when you can accomplish *anything,* it's what you *don't* do that matters."

His villains are a reflection of that; what do people do when they have (ultimate) power?

Or as Vordan said; Absolute power reveals.

On an individual level, the classic rogues represent various facets of Clark, either as a character or as a concept. Brainiac is the scary, evil alien Other set against Clark's friendly version of the alien Other. Lex is humanity at it's most intellectually capable but morally worst, set against Clark's "hands on" blue collar aesthetics and high value morality. Zod is the worst elements of Krypton, Clark's past come back to haunt him with the specter of everything his species did wrong. Bizarro is a reflection of Clark without the ethical barriers to dictate what he does. And so on and so forth.

Yes. I love that Luthor can argue (and convince himself) that if not for Superman's interference, *he* could make the world a better place, and after Superman was gone for a time, he came back, Luthor had been given free reign, and the world was manifestly *not* a better place, because Luthor, given the power he claimed he could use to better the world, instead continued being the selfish egotistical jerk he'd always been, without the 'excuse' of 'but, but, Superman!' to hide behind. Power indeed reveals.

That's the key to some of Superman's key villains, IMO. He's got great power, and has dedicated himself to making the world a better place. His villains, given great power, Brainiac, Luthor, Darkseid, might *claim* they want to 'make the world better' or 'more peaceful' or 'bring about order and give people purpose' or some such self-justifying claptrap, but very much do not want to make the world a better place *for everyone else.* They have zero respect for 'the little people' being able to decide for themselves, and while Superman will show up to save people, and then fly away and leave them to go on living their own lives and making their own mistakes, his villains seem to think they know better how everyone else must live their lives, and end up trying to seize control.

Kal, at the end of the day, represents *freedom* (even if it sometimes gets him criticized for 'not doing enough' to end wars by force, or overthrow dictators and seize control of failing states and go all 'Justice Lords') and his most iconic villains, do not.

[Sutekh]

What does Darkseid, Lex Luthor, and Brainiac all have in common? No hair on top of their head. Sure not all of his most notable foes are bald, but enough are.

Superman's arch-nemesis? Male pattern baldness!

Hmm. Need to get some Dr. Sivana up in here (as part of a plot to give himself Kryptonian powers, or usurp Superman's will and pit him against the Big Red Cheese)!

[ngroove]

Faora 10 characters

To my knowledge, only had ONE story, even with General Zod and the other Phantom Zoners (Jax-Ur, Kru-El, ect) in it, in which she was the main villain - her first.

Subsequent appearances, all still with General Zod and the other Phantom Zoners, Zod was / is, the main villain of the stories.

[marhawkman]

To my knowledge, only had ONE story, even with General Zod and the other Phantom Zoners (Jax-Ur, Kru-El, ect) in it, in which she was the main villain - her first.

Subsequent appearances, all still with General Zod and the other Phantom Zoners, Zod was / is, the main villain of the stories.

Yeah it's not that there are NO super-villains at all it's just that the female supervillains who are bruisers are usually henchwomen.

[Johnny Thunders!]

If you squint and smudge, sure, you can group them all by something like how they contrast with aspects of his personality. But that's a small box. Admittedly Flash, Spider-Man, and chiefly Batman prove that a small box can be great. You can weave Joker, or R'as and Scarecrow simultaneously, into the origin story. Or you can team up in many combinations. You don't have to worry about a mold breaker like Mxy and you can elevator pitch a Sinister Six or Rogues group with an ease unknown to even Johns' Commercial Revenge Squad.

I like Superman villains because when they're on, they can make the box seem too big to see the walls. The one obvious trait they need is persistence: what happens when you go head to head with Superman and lose? How do you answer a man who has everything and does anything? With recurring villains the plots can be extravagant and nutty. They often morph in order to change their threat. Some have the ability to just reinvent their approach even if they don't change themselves. The top ones can do both well.

Power levels can be high but I think that's more likely to limit the villain. That's not really an interesting kind of persistence. I'd rather see a writer use a buffoon they just enjoy.

I do like the idea that Superman villains are dark versions of who he is and I think it works really well from Bizarro to Mxyzptlk to Luthor. Each one represent a distorted take on the Man of Steel. A question I have, Luthor, Ultra Humanite, Mxyzptlk, Metallo, Toy Man, the Prankster, are there any more Golden Age Villains that endured? I know there is one character with a top hat and monocle but I can't remember his name.

[ngroove]

Yeah it's not that there are NO super-villains at all it's just that the female supervillains who are bruisers are usually henchwomen.

Yes, that also applies with Mercy Graves, longtime memorable since her days in Superman TAS, but still primary role is Lex's bodyguard.

[ngroove]

I do like the idea that Superman villains are dark versions of who he is and I think it works really well from Bizarro to Mxyzptlk to Luthor. Each one represent a distorted take on the Man of Steel. A question I have, Luthor, Ultra Humanite, Mxyzptlk, Metallo, Toy Man, the Prankster, are there any more Golden Age Villains that endured? I know there is one character with a top hat and monocle but I can't remember his name.

J. Wilbur Wolfingham, whom after the Golden Age, and an appearance in Mr. & Mrs. Superman setted in the Earth II fifties in the pages of SUPERMAN FAMILY, he matched wits against the Earth I Superman twice, in 1979 then 1984.

These guys are not in any way "Great" or "Enduring" in ways Luthor or Mxyzptlk became, but the Mr. & Mrs. Superman vignettes in Superman Family issues of the late seventies to the early eighties also resurfaced other formely one-time Golden Age criminals Funny Face, Swami Riva, Tycoon of Crime, the Archer, and Metalo.

Metallo, with two Ls, John Corben, was Silver Age, not Golden Age. His first appearance was in the late fifties, Superman the newspaper comic strips first, then the Action Comics issue that was more known for introducing Supergirl.

[Jim Kelly]

A question I have, Luthor, Ultra Humanite, Mxyzptlk, Metallo, Toy Man, the Prankster, are there any more Golden Age Villains that endured? I know there is one character with a top hat and monocle but I can't remember his name.

The first Metalo (note the spelling) only had one appearance in 1942. Then in 1959, a second Metallo (different spelling) appeared, with no connection to the first, but he had the good sense to die in the same issue. Then his brother showed up in 1977 and had a number of appearances before John Byrne retrobooted the 1959 Metallo.

There was a villain called the Puzzler who had a few appearances in the 1940s.

Not a villain, but an adversary in the early days was Sergeant Casey who made his first appearance in the comic strip in 1940 before migrating to the comic books the next year. Given Superman was considered an outlaw, it was Casey's duty to capture the Man of Might. Later, when Superman was an upstanding citizen, Casey was more of an ally. He had many appearances in the 1940s but saw his last days on the beat in 1948. The copper returns in 1982, in Mr. and Mrs. Superman, as a lieutenant. However, D.C. had a gag cartoon by the immortal Henry Boltinoff, called "Casey the Cop," which you could consider the continuing the adventures of Casey, if you wanted to.

Another gadfly of the constabulary was Inspector Erskine Hawkins of Scotland Yard, who makes his first bow in 1946, set on proving that Clark Kent and Superman are one and the same. He makes a couple more attempts after that, his last bow in 1952.

Hocus and Pocus are the would-be Penn and Teller of the 1940s--down and outers hopeful of getting their magic act some street cred. As low level performers they're apt to get mixed up with flim-flam artists and no-goodniks.

Susie Tompkins is Lois Lane's niece who makes several appearances in the 1940s. She's not a villain by definition, but she certainly can make trouble for the Man of Tomorrow. She returns once more in 1955 and then makes a few more appearances in the Mr. and Mrs. Superman stories between 1978 and 1982.

Likewise, I don't think of J. Wilbur Wolfingham as an out and out villain. He's a charming confidence man, a grifter--in the style of a W.C. Fields character.

These odd fellows that function as antagonists but don't do enough to land them in a prison present a quandary for Superman, as he has to finesse the situation--he can't punch them out, he has no cause to do so, but they do make his life difficult.

I feel the same about Mr. Mxyztplk. The truth is Superman actually likes Mxy, Wilbur, Susie, Hocus and Pocus, Erskine and Casey. That's why dealing with them can be challenging.

[SpideyCeo]

A good villain makes a hero have personal investment and motivation in stopping him rather just putting on a professional face of all moral rightousness, a superman villain has to challenge him as a super rival and make sure hes not too comfortable in his power to solve everything, superman should be against someone who has the ability to mentally and emotionally drive superman to a someone whos super human nature is like a normal humans when wanting to accomplish something that oppresses him.

[Ascended]

Susie also returns in Morrison's Action run, I believe?

[Vordan]

Susie also returns in Morrison's Action run, I believe?

Yep as a Neo Sapien and target for recruitment by Captain Comet. Later she’s drafted by Vyn into his Anti-Superman Army.

[prepmaster]

The concept of Superman seems to be hope & humility. Lex, Brainiac are the opposite of humility, which is why they are among the best Superman villains. In terms of threat level, all those that can bring doom to humanity are Superman villains.

[Nero]

What makes a good Superman villain is to make the antagonist just a good villain in general.

1. The villain needs to look cool (and let's be honest, the same rule also applies to the protagonist): It's not a coincedence that villains that have a striking appearance often are utilized more sufficently usually due to marketing. The look is the first thing that's obviously going to be noticed and if it connects, it's going to further warrant the attention of the observor. Case in point, when I first saw Conduit (who should have returned by now), it made me want to learn more about him thus I followed whichever Superman comics that featured him.

2. There needs to be a stronger connection between Superman and the villain besides "good vs evil": To prevent the villain from being forgettable, the villain needs to make things personal with Superman. The villain has to find a way to not only get inside Superman's head but also create a long lasting impression once they're in there. Luthor does that by the way he controls Metropolis. Brainiac does that through his experiments. Zod does that by the way he uses Kryptonian ancestry as a weapon. For an example, having a villain attempt to drive Superman insane in an attempt to break him from within stands a better chance of cemeting that villain in the rogues gallery than just simply showing up and getting into a physical altercation with Superman.

3. More Boss, Less Stooge: Make it to where the villain is able to stand on their own merits. If the goal especially is to spotlight the villain in his or her entirity then having them share the spotlight with more established villains by working for them will take away from that. You have a better chace of emphasizing that the villain is their own man (or woman) by acting more independent.