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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    That and at least Chameleon's Boy parentage will obviously become public, but I expect some other reveals. Don't know why but Colossal Boy's on my radar. He too challenged Rokk, seems to held Jon in a very high esteem and all. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out with him. Monster Boy and Shadow Lass are also of much interest to me.

  2. #47
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    I have a very dumb theory about Monster Boy that I would LOVE to be even *remotely* true, so I'll for sure be paying extra special attention to his page. And hearing about New Krypton coming into pay after it being seeded in his Superman run is exciting.

    But my favorite part from the interview you posted was that after issues 7 and 8 we'll be spending the rest of the year "really developing the intricate relationships between everybody." That's music to my ears because this issue was such a good time, and it was all about that. And it honestly felt like Bendis was rewarding himself with a "downtime" issue to do one of the main things he signed onto this book to do: the interpersonal back and forth and internal politics of the team. Mix that stuff with new discoveries and ideas like whatever Oa looks like now, and New Krypton plus their big new threat is totally what I'm here for.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  3. #48
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSman View Post
    He isn't Clark Kent but that doesn't mean he won't have similar attributes to his father, it's the same with any child and parent, the child will come to share some similarities. As for him not being raised by his parents, that's factually incorrect and you know it. He might have spent the latter half of his life on Earth 3, but the former half was with his parents. As for questioning his father's beliefs, why would he? Did Clark question his father's values? A lot of Clark's current beliefs and philosophy came from his parents, which he passed on to Jon. So why wouldn't he follow them as diligently as Clark would?
    There is a difference between having attributes and being a copy.This is bordering on copying.Jon is mischievous, enthusiastic, hyper-energetic, moreexpressive, passionate, quiry, sunny.. Etc.Clark doesn't have the energy the kid used to have. If the kid was to take charge it should have been done differently. That's not incorrect at all. He spent his development year with different people.him as toddle from1 to 5 rarely wouldn't impact how he turns out. Clark and lois effectively spent approximately 5 years or less with his parent. Heck! Damian had more impact on jon as a superson and the guy who made jon embrace superheriocs (darkside and all). Damian has generally served the big brother who is shorter status. Effectively, clark only taught him how to use heat vision. Everything else, the kid had friends to help him out with. Actually, that's a problem with modern superman line. So what if its from the elder kents? Doesn't mean jon kent has to live by those values. Why would he? Simple, he is his own man. Superman's value system is exactly perfect nor can anyone live by what superman thinks.Just because superman and his parents think something doesn't his son has live by them.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-29-2020 at 10:30 PM.

  4. #49
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I don't think they're "poop jokes".

    I think it's a way of sneaking in the fact that unlike his father, Jon has similar biological needs to humans. In issue 23 of Superman Clark tells Doctor Fate that he only actually needs to sleep every couple of years and Martha basically needs to force feed him or he forgets.

    Jon on the other hand seems to absolutely love eating, and may even have a greater biological need than humans to do so given how he seems to be up for some food at any given moment. And at the end of the Unity Saga Jon remarks on how he needed to use the bathroom because he'd been holding it in for a while (something Clark likely has no need of given he hardly eats to begin with).
    I think Bendis uses Clark neglecting his biological functions and Jon embracing them more as marks of youth.

    As an adult with a job and family, Clark lives a busy life and has so many concerns he can often forget to take care of himself. Jon is a child with fewer responsibilities and can live a bit more carefree. Generally, kids eat a lot when they're growing up and Bendis has mentioned that he feels Superman is one of the most adult heroes out there, so it seems he's juxtaposing Clark and his son to further define each of them. Hell, the end of Superman #22 concludes with both Lois and Clark exhausted from their respective days and collapsing with hardly any time to themselves. It's a great issue and drives home just how stressful their lives can be and how strong they are to endure that kind of thing all the time.

    It also sells why Jon doesn't see himself as Superman just yet. His dad has the entire weight of the world on his shoulders and makes it look easy, but he's still trying to figure himself out. No matter how much Clark tries to let his son know that he too has to figure it out every day and it only looks easy, well, his dad is Superman. For what it's worth, Bendis does write that relationship pretty well.


    As for this issue? Loved every panel. President Brand is great. You can see how she commands every room she's in by virtue of turning everything into some degree of a win. The interpersonal drama is pretty solid as well because, quite frankly, both have a point. Rokk is right to feel frustrated that he was made leader simply because the others didn't want to do it and now he's getting flak because he didn't handle it how they wanted. They've essentially turned him into a figurehead to take the fall when Brainy's plans go sideways as its presented... However, Imra is right that he handled it poorly. He comes across as whiny, but at the same time, I can't help but feel for the dude because that's a lot of pressure to take as a teen and justifying any mistakes will come across as whiny to some degree.

    Up until a short while ago, I was very much in a similar position and it sucks real bad. He's essentially completely responsible with zero support. It's easy to dismiss someone as whining when something blows up in their face, but he never had a chance and was overcompensating by trying to make a show of force, so to speak. Like Clark outing his identity to wrest control back in his life, Rokk wanted to establish that if he's going to be leader, he wants to actually lead-- to live or die by his own merits, not just let his smart colleague run the place with him acting as his shield. Not that either are wrong, but it's clear the Legion never communicated how they wanted to operate and were content letting Rokk be a figurehead and nothing more, which isn't fair to someone they consider a friend.

    Also, they're teenagers, so the petty argument felt very authentic. "I find you reading my mind offensive" is so damn dumb, because it's highly unlikely that's the first time she's ever done it, but it's coming up now because he wants to be angry at something so he's likely grasping at anything that he can hang her out to dry for. I don't think either are supposed to come across as "the good guy," even though Imra is ultimately right on what she's calling him out on-- which Brainy highlights.

    I do love that Jon basically Noped himself out of the running. I like the Legion a lot, but I like even more that Jon's willing to take a step back and really just take in everything... And as much as I love that kid, I really want the Legion's book to be their own.

    This is quickly becoming one of my favorite iterations of the Legion.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    There is a difference between having attributes and being a copy.This is bordering on copying.Jon is mischievous, enthusiastic, hyper-energetic, moreexpressive, passionate, quiry, sunny.. Etc.Clark doesn't have the energy the kid used to have. If the kid was to take charge it should have been done differently. That's not incorrect at all. He spent his development year with different people.him as toddle from1 to 5 rarely wouldn't impact how he turns out. Clark and lois effectively spent approximately 5 years or less with his parent. Heck! Damian had more impact on jon as a superson and the guy who made jon embrace superheriocs (darkside and all). Damian has generally served the big brother who is shorter status. Effectively, clark only taught him how to use heat vision. Everything else, the kid had friends to help him out with. Actually, that's a problem with modern superman line. So what if its from the elder kents? Doesn't mean jon kent has to live by those values. Why would he? Simple, he is his own man. Superman's value system is exactly perfect nor can anyone live by what superman thinks.Just because superman and his parents think something doesn't his son has live by them.
    Yeah, but Jon also grew up. People change as they get older and most mellow out from their more energetic childhoods. According to my parents, I never walked until I was about 8 years old. I only ran, and yet by high school I mellowed out a lot. It happens. Honestly, the age jump is just about the only thing that can explain the tonal shift in Jon's character. I completely understand not liking the change, and frankly he still shows that he's that kid now and again, but he's matured a lot over his cosmic odyssey and he's now grappling with the reality of being Superman's son. If that doesn't slow someone down, I don't know what would.

    I do agree that Jon can be too much like his dad. I want some more Lois in him (and not just giving him violet eyes, but I'll harp on that until it happens), which means I want to see him have a sharper tongue sometimes and get himself into some trouble like both his parents used to. If nothing else, I want Jon to be a little less idealistic when it comes to giving other people second chances. At times, Clark can hope so much that it works out that unless it's like Lex or Brainiac, he always gives the benefit of the doubt. I'd like for Jon to always give people a chance, but that he needs more time to trust that it sticks as opposed to his father. Not the full benefit of the doubt like his father and not trust-but-verify like Sam Lane, but more where Lois generally sits at. Give them an opportunity to prove it and then see if it sticks.

    It really bugs me when Jon gets written completely as "Young Clark." Too often, the mothers of DC's characters aren't as influential as they should be. From Martha Kent and Wayne to Lois Lane, they really need more impact on their kids other than us saying that Martha Kent is the de facto best mom in DC just because of who her son turned out to be. We need more moments highlighting them and how they impacted their kids. Lois is one of their premier female characters and it's a crime her son doesn't reflect her more.
    Last edited by Robanker; 07-29-2020 at 11:58 PM.

  5. #50
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I think Bendis uses Clark neglecting his biological functions and Jon embracing them more as marks of youth.
    That's a very, very strong observation, and I imagine that has to be part of the intent on some level. Absolutely. But I think it goes deeper than that since we've also just flat out seen Jon hold his stomach and ask "is anyone else hungry". But in Clark's case, like we confirm with his sleep (not needing sleep for years), there doesn't seem to be much of an indication of a biological need for food outside of nourishment from the sun. The way that it's presented as I've documented it over the span of this run doesn't seem to imply it's an aspect that will go away with the onset of adult responsibility.

    Rogol Zaar, who seems to also be another half Kryptonian (possibly Clark's half brother), is shown eating regularly as if out of biological need even though Clark mentions that Zaar seems to always find the power to overcome whatever foe is in opposition to him. Clark guessed that he was powered by the sun like he was (and also assumed that Zaar was new to that power), but then Zaar spends longer in the Phantom Zone than Clark or Zod and yet is able to beat the hell out of both of them at nearly the same time. Clark even remarked how much he needed the sun after. And Zaar remarks to Zod that Zod "needed some sun" before he could hope to face him again, while he was was "freshly fed and rested".

    And we see that even though Jon spent years on Earth-3 and we saw him fail to fly early on there, he was able to fly and regain some form of durability at the end of his stay while fighting Superwoman. And we later hear him remark to Damian (almost randomly) how Earth-3 had such great food while he's having two Olsen dogs to himself.

    I don't know how it all links up or if it goes beyond a coincidence and a quirk, but the frequency of it is certainly noteworthy I feel. It's maybe possibly that similar to how Clark (apparently) incorrectly assumed Zaar needed to be powered by the sun to be on par with him in MOS, Jon has gone his whole life assuming he's powered by the sun because he is his father's son and would've had no other frame of reference to go by?

    I dunno. Food for thought (I'll see myself out lol)

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    President Brand is great. You can see how she commands every room she's in by virtue of turning everything into some degree of a win.
    I agree! She's able to save face and pivot like a politician would. Plays into how Imra saw that she wants control more than anything, and how Cham says that she's ultimately scared above all else.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 07-30-2020 at 02:42 AM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Speaking of Zaar... I'm actually really interested in seeing him return. He's very much the Khan of this LOSH : a super-soldier from a darker, meaner, era who tries and fail at understanding that the world has changed and that his hatred is unfounded. He's very much the demon which led to the birth of the United Planet in a sense. Seeing him return and face Jon (with the possible reveal of his origins? Regarding this character, I hope it'll be done, it's one of the few were I feel it's necessary to tell us that much) could lead to some serious soul-searching, especially for Rimborians who seems to be stuck in constant warfare against themselves, in one way or form.

    That plus Daxamites and New Kryptonians should definitively be really afraid of his return. That guy destroyed the original Krypton. Sure, New Kriptonians and possibly Daxamites lives under a yellow sun (or two, if it's Zod's colony) but they could still be tricked by him and destroyed all the same.

  7. #52
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Speaking of Zaar... I'm actually really interested in seeing him return. He's very much the Khan of this LOSH : a super-soldier from a darker, meaner, era who tries and fail at understanding that the world has changed and that his hatred is unfounded. He's very much the demon which led to the birth of the United Planet in a sense. Seeing him return and face Jon (with the possible reveal of his origins? Regarding this character, I hope it'll be done, it's one of the few were I feel it's necessary to tell us that much) could lead to some serious soul-searching, especially for Rimborians who seems to be stuck in constant warfare against themselves, in one way or form.

    That plus Daxamites and New Kryptonians should definitively be really afraid of his return. That guy destroyed the original Krypton. Sure, New Kriptonians and possibly Daxamites lives under a yellow sun (or two, if it's Zod's colony) but they could still be tricked by him and destroyed all the same.
    Damn, I'm not a Star Trek fan by any stretch of the imagination, but that's a damn fine basic breakdown and comparison that I could get. My immediate thought due to my frame of reference with Zaar was Voldemort from Harry Potter. Like Voldemort was in relativity a self hating half-blood bent on genocide, Zaar is a self-hating half Kryptonian bent on genocide. But I'm really wondering how he ends up in the future and who-- I'm guessing-- sets him free? I also agree with really needing more from his backstory this time around. If the speculation is true and Zaar is in fact Jor-El's son, then that's almost an "I am your father" sort of moment between him and Jon. Good call on the Rimborians too. They want to stand divided with both sides of their planet and kill each other, but Zaar is a true self hating engine of actual genocide with the body count to prove it.

    Speaking of New Krypton, isn't it noteworthy that the Kryptonians haven't sent over a representative for the Legion like 30 something other planets have? You'd think what is like the most physically powerful and likely famous race of people in the galactic would've done so. Especially when the UP was created by a half Kryptonian. It's possibly that rule under House Zod and the betrayal of The Circle has left the 31st century Kryptonians as isolationist?
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Damn, I'm not a Star Trek fan by any stretch of the imagination, but that's a damn fine basic breakdown and comparison that I could get. My immediate thought due to my frame of reference with Zaar was Voldemort from Harry Potter. Like Voldemort was in relativity a self hating half-blood bent on genocide, Zaar is a self-hating half Kryptonian bent on genocide. But I'm really wondering how he ends up in the future and who-- I'm guessing-- sets him free? I also agree with really needing more from his backstory this time around. If the speculation is true and Zaar is in fact Jor-El's son, then that's almost an "I am your father" sort of moment between him and Jon. Good call on the Rimborians too. They want to stand divided with both sides of their planet and kill each other, but Zaar is a true self hating engine of actual genocide with the body count to prove it.

    Speaking of New Krypton, isn't it noteworthy that the Kryptonians haven't sent over a representative for the Legion like 30 something other planets have? You'd think what is like the most physically powerful and likely famous race of people in the galactic would've done so. Especially when the UP was created by a half Kryptonian. It's possibly that rule under House Zod and the betrayal of The Circle has left the 31st century Kryptonians as isolationist?
    Regarding the Kryptonians, I'd actually love for them to be "we don't need a representative. We've known for a thousand years that Jon Kent represent both Earth and Krypton" or something like that. As for Zaar... yeah, I'll make a thread on twitter I think xD !

    Edit : and here it is https://twitter.com/GDLThomas/status...96569458880514
    Last edited by Korath; 07-30-2020 at 04:31 AM.

  9. #54
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    That's a very, very strong observation, and I imagine that has to be part of the intent on some level. Absolutely. But I think it goes deeper than that since we've also just flat out seen Jon hold his stomach and ask "is anyone else hungry". But in Clark's case, like we confirm with his sleep (not needing sleep for years), there doesn't seem to be much of an indication of a biological need for food outside of nourishment from the sun. The way that it's presented as I've documented it over the span of this run doesn't seem to imply it's an aspect that will go away with the onset of adult responsibility.

    Rogol Zaar, who seems to also be another half Kryptonian (possibly Clark's half brother), is shown eating regularly as if out of biological need even though Clark mentions that Zaar seems to always find the power to overcome whatever foe is in opposition to him. Clark guessed that he was powered by the sun like he was (and also assumed that Zaar was new to that power), but then Zaar spends longer in the Phantom Zone than Clark or Zod and yet is able to beat the hell out of both of them at nearly the same time. Clark even remarked how much he needed the sun after. And Zaar remarks to Zod that Zod "needed some sun" before he could hope to face him again, while he was was "freshly fed and rested".

    And we see that even though Jon spent years on Earth-3 and we saw him fail to fly early on there, he was able to fly and regain some form of durability at the end of his stay while fighting Superwoman. And we later hear him remark to Damian (almost randomly) how Earth-3 had such great food while he's having two Olsen dogs to himself.

    I don't know how it all links up or if it goes beyond a coincidence and a quirk, but the frequency of it is certainly noteworthy I feel. It's maybe possibly that similar to how Clark (apparently) incorrectly assumed Zaar needed to be powered by the sun to be on par with him in MOS, Jon has gone his whole life assuming he's powered by the sun because he is his father's son and would've had no other frame of reference to go by?

    I dunno. Food for thought (I'll see myself out lol)



    I agree! She's able to save face and pivot like a politician would. Plays into how Imra saw that she wants control more than anything, and how Cham says that she's ultimately scared above all else.
    I've gone nine+ hour work days in a hot warehouse without food or water because I was so busy I didn't realize how thirsty I was. I don't realize it until I'm driving home and have cleared my mind of my duties. It happens. I think their bodies can survive without food or rest under the sun, but just that-- survive. If they want to be at their best, they are shown to need it, else Clark wouldn't be pushed to exhaustion or truly know hunger. I think it manifests, but he's just so busy those needs don't really register and he doesn't run into the ramifications of either because they present themselves extremely slowly. We've seen Clark have food he wants to eat, get hungry, and how much he clearly needs a good night's sleep. Much like a human can absolutely survive in isolation for decades, it's not exactly healthy. I imagine the same is true for Kryptonians. Clark is likely underselling it because of how he was raised. He doesn't see his needs nearly as important as others, so he doesn't need to sleep, eat or so on. His mother needs to feed him A) because mothers always feel like their kids aren't eating well/enough/well enough and B) because he's so busy with a full-time job and being Superman and now a father.

    I actually reread the entire Superman side of the run today and Clark is clearly growing more and more stressed over the course of it until he collapses in #22. It's shown that he absolutely does need to sleep no matter what his physiology may say. He won't be mentally healthy without rest. I think Clark is splitting hairs on what he actually "needs" to do. This is juxtaposed with Jon, who while very polite, is also a much more animated person than his father. He's loud about what he feels and very energetic, even as he's mellowed out. It's not just Unity Day, IT'S UNITY DAY! *Throws fist in the sky for full-page splash* I think him doing the cartoonish tummy rub for hunger is indicative of that-- Bendis is trying to show that this is the same ten year old we remember, just older and missing that cup of noodles he wanted to marry in Super Sons. Jon is a bit more honest with himself because he can afford to be. He doesn't have the same responsibilities and he does have a different personality to his father even if many writers forget that. I just took it more as Jon being very extra as he is wont to do.

    A lot of it really does feel like Bendis making a statement on how relatable Superman really is because the guy has a personal life, a job and a family that he barely can keep together but he makes it look easy. We all have that friend. We've all been that person sometimes, and we've all been the one to make a series of errors once the wrong domino falls (and often a family member is involved). Hell, he absolutely makes stupid decisions because a loved one is involved and he wants to believe they can improve themselves. Who doesn't have that relative? Hell, some of us probably are that relative. If Peter Parker is supposed to be relatable to you in your teens, Clark is more that for adult life. It's just dialed up to the nth degree because he's Superman, hence after a rough day at the office, he smells like Venus instead of cigar smoke or whatever the Daily Planet smells like when Perry is storming the bullpen.

    I could very well be wrong! However, Bendis does write Clark as the most polite man in the room and it rings true that he'd just not be thinking about his needs and downplays them so others don't worry for him, if only subconsciously. You'd worry for Atlas holding the world up on his back if the guy needed some sleep or to use the restroom, but if he doesn't need to do that and says he's got it with a smile? Your worries would significantly drop. Clark seems to radiate that energy and fill that role, so it's probably just his default and he doesn't know when he's doing it.

    Hence why he also makes the world's best and worst father figure for Jon. I can't imagine how long a shadow Superman casts and how intimidating it'd be when he's telling you "you've got this. I know it's hard and I promise I struggle with it every day. That's how I know you can do it, Jon!"

    Instead of making the gap seem smaller, he probably makes it even wider. "That's you struggling? Man, I can't measure up!" Jon will step up (and has in so many ways the kid can't see), but I totally understand how he's absolutely not ready to be called Superman no matter how much Lobo or President Brand insist. Comedian Dave Attell once made the joke "you ever grow up thinking your dad is Superman and then you get old and realize he's just a drunk in a cape?" Jon still sees an idealized version of his father and can't really just look past it and see him as a man yet the same way most sons can't. I really love their relationship in this phase of his life. He's absolutely a good son, but he's clearly grappling with the very real consequences of being the son of two of the most prolific people on the planet.

    Bendis has his missteps, but overall I'm really happy with a lot of how he has handled the Super line. Even Jon's aging up, which I still am not in love with, has lead to strong characterization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    Regarding the Kryptonians, I'd actually love for them to be "we don't need a representative. We've known for a thousand years that Jon Kent represent both Earth and Krypton" or something like that. As for Zaar... yeah, I'll make a thread on twitter I think xD !

    Edit : and here it is https://twitter.com/GDLThomas/status...96569458880514
    Having read Superman 1-23 today and Legion #7, the way Zod thinks he needs to bring all the houses together and how Bendis has been seeding Mon-El's backstory, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's revealed he's a descendant of Jon's kid and Zod's grandkid, living proof of New Krypton also working out in the end. He's certainly very uneasy about his info plate being displayed when Jon's present and doesn't feel comfortable being around him.
    Last edited by Robanker; 07-30-2020 at 04:40 AM.

  10. #55
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    We've seen Clark have food he wants to eat, get hungry, and how much he clearly needs a good night's sleep.
    Maybe in other runs, but we haven't come across anything but the contrast in this one. Regarding sleep, in issue 9 Clark even says "but the yellow sun makes it so I don't have to sleep, even though I clearly do" (he later explains why he sleeps) And then issue 23 expounds on that by saying that Clark does in fact need to sleep every few years. Bendis is clearly going for something more extraordinary when it comes to Clark, and he's going out of his way to have it so Jon is shown sleeping, needing to use the bathroom, and getting hungry.

    Clark is likely underselling it because of how he was raised.
    I think it's both. I take him at his word (which has been reinforced) and as a Kryptonian under a yellow sun he simply doesn't need sleep for impossible stretches of time, but also that he's pushing himself because of stress. In issue 9 (this is the explanation) he says that Batman thinks that the only reason Clark ever has to sleep is because his subconscious needs to have its "stage time". I believe this is shown in issue 22 when after his fight with Mongul we finally see Clark go to sleep, and the very last thing he's thinking about is how much he misses his son. In issue 17 Lois remarks on how Clark still hasn't worked through everything regarding Jon and his dad, and she's worried. So then in issue 23 Clark sees Doctor Fate at Lois' request, and this is where we get the reaffirmation that Clark doesn't need sleep for years at a time, and even then only sleeps, not because of a physical need, because he has a need to dream and allow his subconscious its time. This is also the issue where Clark finally breaks down a bit about how Jon leaving for the Legion has affected him. Something he's been keeping bottled up about.

    But my point is that that's different from what we're seeing with Jon. He just legitimately seems like he needs to do things like sleep, eat, and use the bathroom regularly on a physical level rather than what seems to be more mental for Clark.

    Instead of making the gap seem smaller, he probably makes it even wider. "That's you struggling? Man, I can't measure up!" Jon will step up, but I totally understand how he's absolutely not ready to be called Superman no matter how much Lobo or President Brand insist. Comedian Dave Attell once made the joke "you ever grow up thinking your dad is Superman and then you get old and realize he's just a drunk in a cape?" Jon still sees an idealized version of his father and can't really just look past it and see him as a man yet the same way most sons can't. I really love their relationship in this phase of his life. He's absolutely a good son, but he's clearly grappling with the very real consequences of being the son of two of the most prolific people on the planet.
    I think that's a good point and maybe deeper and more physical than you're asserting here. Clark *does* cast the longest shadow possible, and he does seem perfect and unattainable. So suppose Jon did grow up with *that* as his measuring stick in all things. He starts getting powers, who does he compare them to? He starts acting as a hero, who does he compare it to? Bendis' arc with Jon seems to be one where even though his dad is an inspiration, he's gotta be his own man. That's why him having the idea for the UP is a big character moment for him and contrast to Clark because like Jor-El alluded (in his own blunt way) in Man of Steel, Clark didn't really interject himself into the goings on of his home nor other worlds to this degree, and certainly not with politics. In fact he laughs Martain Manhunter off for suggesting the very same thing his son makes work and he is now helping with. So why couldn't Jon powers and physiology also work a little differently? One would assume so given how much of a fine point Bendis put on Jon being mathematically improbable if not nearly impossible.

    Ultraman did flat out say that maybe Jon found himself on Earth-3 similar to how Clark found himself on Earth to find his true potential. What if the lack of sun shattering the misconception that he needed the sun was the idea similar to Clark going from a red sun to a yellow sun? Maybe the take away is that without that Jon may have gone through life assuming he was *just* like his dad in every regard?
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  11. #56
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    For sure. Bendis has shown time and again that Jon doesn't see himself as his dad and it's definitely a reason he's uneasy just getting called Superman. He wants to succeed his father and make him proud, but he isn't quite sure how to do it yet and is really trying to figure himself out.

    For one thing, he seems drawn to telepaths. I wonder if that's because they can often help him deep dive into his own psyche and sort out things he's having problems with on his own...

    Of course, Imra is pretty and he's seventeen so there's a simple reason he may also be drawn to her. Hah.


    You're likely on to something that Bendis wants to highlight differences in pure/hybrid Kryptonian physiology. I'm so used to writers saying Jon will eventually surpass his father's strength that I suppose I abandoned the notion that he'd potentially not have all his father's advantages. To be fair, Batman postulated that about Jon and Kara, so he probably just relishes any opportunity to tell Clark he's not the strongest guy on the block anymore. Bruce does seem to resent that Clark be better than him at anything under most writers, sadly.

    To be frank, it's weird to think a half human would be as strong as a pure Kryptonian and feels a bit like we're trying to big up our side of the family, so to speak. Who actually knows? I certainly hope they define his powers a bit differently in the end.
    Last edited by Robanker; 07-30-2020 at 11:24 AM.

  12. #57
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    To be frank, it's weird to think a half human would be as strong as a pure Kryptonian and feels a bit like we're trying to big up our side of the family, so to speak. Who actually knows? I certainly hope they define his powers a bit differently in the end.
    Well, I think it may be a give and take situation. Hybrids like Jon and Zaar seem to be able to have access to their powers based off internal physiology rather than an external power source like the sun, thus allowing them power anywhere. But they are reliant on physical needs like eating, sleeping, and using the bathroom like most other creatures, and unlike a Kryptonian under a the right sun. And given Jon's seemingly boundless appetite, and Zaar's need to eat and rest twice in the span of his fight with Clark and then later Zod (he stops to eat and rest twice while Clark only complied about the lack of sun), it's likely they need to replenish themselves much more frequently at greater volumes than maybe even more than normal creatures like you or I would.

    That said, given the fact that Zaar is so dang powerful that he's able to soundly beat two full blooded Kryptonians two separate times, he may represent what Jon is capable of as a Kryptonian half breed (given the fact that it's seeming like Bendis intends them to be foils). But it seem like they have to be smart about it because they have to fit in feedings and time for rest that they clearly need. Zaar seems like he's aware of this on some level, and has become disciple about it (not chasing after Clark in issue 5 after they were trapped in the Zone, and instead opting to sit down, eat, and rest. Then doing the same later after beating Zod). Jon on the other hand seems to only do it instinctively and when normal food is accessible.

    So, it's taking the shortcoming of being a mortal, and having them fuel/greatly empower them, but also hamper them.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  13. #58
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Well, I think it may be a give and take situation. Hybrids like Jon and Zaar seem to be able to have access to their powers based off internal physiology rather than an external power source like the sun, thus allowing them power anywhere. But they are reliant on physical needs like eating, sleeping, and using the bathroom like most other creatures, and unlike a Kryptonian under a the right sun. And given Jon's seemingly boundless appetite, and Zaar's need to eat and rest twice in the span of his fight with Clark and then later Zod (he stops to eat and rest twice while Clark only complied about the lack of sun), it's likely they need to replenish themselves much more frequently at greater volumes than maybe even more than normal creatures like you or I would.

    That said, given the fact that Zaar is so dang powerful that he's able to soundly beat two full blooded Kryptonians two separate times, he may represent what Jon is capable of as a Kryptonian half breed (given the fact that it's seeming like Bendis intends them to be foils). But it seem like they have to be smart about it because they have to fit in feedings and time for rest that they clearly need. Zaar seems like he's aware of this on some level, and has become disciple about it (not chasing after Clark in issue 5 after they were trapped in the Zone, and instead opting to sit down, eat, and rest. Then doing the same later after beating Zod). Jon on the other hand seems to only do it instinctively and when normal food is accessible.

    So, it's taking the shortcoming of being a mortal, and having them fuel/greatly empower them, but also hamper them.
    That's an interesting way of looking at it! It very much reminds of when they tried to give Wally West a weakness in the form of an incredibly increased calorie intake to justify all the energy his body consumes. It's certainly very possible that's what is going on with Jon. That's an astute observation that Jon doesn't seem as reliant on the sun, either. Perhaps he's still powered by it like his father but retains it more as a function of how he's kept up with his other vital functions, such as eating and sleeping.

  14. #59
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    That's an interesting way of looking at it! It very much reminds of when they tried to give Wally West a weakness in the form of an incredibly increased calorie intake to justify all the energy his body consumes. It's certainly very possible that's what is going on with Jon. That's an astute observation that Jon doesn't seem as reliant on the sun, either. Perhaps he's still powered by it like his father but retains it more as a function of how he's kept up with his other vital functions, such as eating and sleeping.
    Thank you! It's been one of the fun little mysteries of this run that I've working out.

    I'm leaning more towards the idea that that Jon just assumed he was powered by the sun like his dad (and probably still doesn't fully understand how he works (likely a job for Brainy)) because he's never had anything else to compare himself to and he is his father's son. This seems similar to how in Man of Steel when Clark first fights Zaar, he racks his brain with how Zaar can be so power and defy the laws of physics, first assuming it was the staff/ax, and then landing on the idea that Zaar may be solar powered like him. This leads him to become a bit overconfident, and assume that Zaar is new to his solar powers, thus giving him the edge due to his decades of experience. As the run goes on both of Clark's theories are proven wrong, and Zaar continues to soundly dominate Clark (and later Zod) without his staff/ax anywhere near him, and having spent a longer time in the sunless Phantom Zone than Clark or Zod. This leads Clark to go back to wondering how Zaar's strength can be possible and at such a level.

    With Jon in issue 9, Ultraman tells Jon that because there is no sun he has no power, and Jon attempts to fly, but is unsuccessful. Enough time passes that Jon's hair grows and he seems to be in the middle of puberty. Yet he's still able to function inside a volcano, and then later wade his way through lava. This would've been impossible for Clark, Kara, or Zod because in issue 6 Clark remarks that "the sun feels unbelievable. I desperately needed it" after being away from it for what had to only amount to a few hours at most between issues 1-6. And in her book that tied in with the Unity Saga Kara consistently ran out of energy while away from the sun to the point where she'd be bone dry within hours. We even see her modify her suit so that it collects solar energy for her to store it. There's no way any of them could've lasted the amount of time Jon did in the volcano AND THEN busted out.

    My theory is simple: Ultraman didn't feed Jon regularly enough to power him. We see Ultraman come in with whole pigs for Jon to ration out, but we also know for a fact that Ultraman would leave for long periods of time, thus meaning Jon had to make his food last. This only added fuel to the idea in Jon's head that he needed sunlight. Jon had just enough food/energy in him to bust out and heal his injuries. Then once we catch up with with Jon after even longer on Earth as he's storming the Crime Syndicate's base, what do we see? We see him straight up FLY and get smashed through rocks as he runs from Superwoman! How's this possible? Simple. Once out of the volcano he started eating regularly. And Superman issue 16 backs up this assumption because Jon explains to Damian that the food on Earth-3 was amazing because it artificial additives were outlawed on that Earth.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 07-30-2020 at 02:24 PM.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  15. #60
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Yeah, but Jon also grew up. People change as they get older and most mellow out from their more energetic childhoods. According to my parents, I never walked until I was about 8 years old. I only ran, and yet by high school I mellowed out a lot. It happens. Honestly, the age jump is just about the only thing that can explain the tonal shift in Jon's character. I completely understand not liking the change, and frankly he still shows that he's that kid now and again, but he's matured a lot over his cosmic odyssey and he's now grappling with the reality of being Superman's son. If that doesn't slow someone down, I don't know what would.
    Growing up is one thing, replacing your own personality for your father's is another. Some people change, some don't. The kid went through torture by manchester black and didn't change. I guess, it's preference. I just generally don't like "classic" superman . I like hyperactive guys who are always on their toes. Honestly, i didn't want the "mellowing" out thing. It's the same argument used for clark.ofcourse, jon's personality was nothing like goldenage superman's.I wanted jon with that quirkier, sunnier, enthusiastic,more innocent ... Etc to face bad, dark, complicated stuff, keep that energy and optimism high like burning his cat alive, seeing a family get masscred as a child, seeing his mom get her leg cut off... Etc. To actually, evolve his philosophy and work ethics. Not copy and paste Clark's work ethics. As for lois part, the kid has plenty of mischievous attitude, sassness and inquisitiveness. I mean, how do you expect him to give it back to a brat and jerk like damian, by being like clark.i mean, clark generally doesn't give it back to bruce. Bruce himself is not as much of an ******* as damian. So, there is that.

    Honestly, i don't understand second chance, third chance.. Etc comic book logic. It's just window dressing for the soap opera storytelling of comics. So, i don't understand. As for clark's being that "extra compassionate" and stuff. I don't see it. If you mean by naive. Yeah! I think jon should be more instinctive in choices. Not a cynic like batman/sam. He shouldn't be like clark basically doesn't see patterns of behaviour. His motto should be "its fine if you change. I don't care. It not my business,your choice. if you don't and cause trouble. I can kick your ass and i am prepared for it". Jon generally doesn't take **** from anyone. The kid should be first one to jump into action with his energy. Honestly want jon to be good at hand to hand fighting and especially get some kendo training . He has been doing this from childhood. He should have a fare amount of street wisdom and experience, Which a "normal" farmboy from kansas wouldn't have.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 07-30-2020 at 06:04 PM.

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