What are good alternatives to the police.

[DrNewGod]

Is justice as arbitrary as it was under the medieval lords?

First, justice doesn't exist. It's an abstraction used to legitimize enabling authority to remove people it finds a nuisance from proximity to those authority doesn't find a a nuisance, often for the safety and security of the non-nuisance folk, but sometimes to ensure authority remains authority. The root of the word doesn't refer to fairness, or equity, but wisdom.

The medieval lords varied in arbitrariness. Prior to the Norman Conquest, the Saxon Carls of England were highly legalistic and their traditions and law constrained what could be done, and compelled what must be done in their dealings with their subjects. There were, as you imply, other medieval cultures where law was a reigning aristocrat's whim.

As to the equity of our system, it's pretty slanted. I'd be curious to run the stats on conviction for a non-violent felony common to all socioeconomic sectors, like possession of a controlled substance such as opioids. Penalties can run from small fines to 10 years in the slammer. Once you control for the price of the legal counsel an accused person can afford, I'm willing to bet that you'd find that penalties get stiffer the further down the tax-brackets that you go, and stiffer the darker the defendant.

[Gotham citizen]

First, justice doesn't exist. It's an abstraction used to legitimize enabling authority to remove people it finds a nuisance from proximity to those authority doesn't find a a nuisance, often for the safety and security of the non-nuisance folk, but sometimes to ensure authority remains authority. The root of the word doesn't refer to fairness, or equity, but wisdom.
[…]

So put in jail a murder, a thief, a rapist, a pusher isn't justice? Interesting.
Anyway the root of justice is the Latin word iustus, derived from ius iuris which was the Latin word for law, rights, fairness and equity; in fact ius iuris is also the root of both just than jurisprudence.

[Kirby101]

First, justice doesn't exist. It's an abstraction used to legitimize enabling authority to remove people it finds a nuisance from proximity to those authority doesn't find a a nuisance, often for the safety and security of the non-nuisance folk, but sometimes to ensure authority remains authority. The root of the word doesn't refer to fairness, or equity, but wisdom.

The medieval lords varied in arbitrariness. Prior to the Norman Conquest, the Saxon Carls of England were highly legalistic and their traditions and law constrained what could be done, and compelled what must be done in their dealings with their subjects. There were, as you imply, other medieval cultures where law was a reigning aristocrat's whim.

As to the equity of our system, it's pretty slanted. I'd be curious to run the stats on conviction for a non-violent felony common to all socioeconomic sectors, like possession of a controlled substance such as opioids. Penalties can run from small fines to 10 years in the slammer. Once you control for the price of the legal counsel an accused person can afford, I'm willing to bet that you'd find that penalties get stiffer the further down the tax-brackets that you go, and stiffer the darker the defendant.

Black people are arrested for marijuana at a rate 3.75X that of white people.

https://www.aclu.org/report/tale-two...rijuana-reform

[Mister Mets]

Is that the standards for Republicans? I know they think there should have been no changes since 1787, but do we go that far back to say we have equal justice now?

I believe that was your standard when you said that arbitrary medieval justice is sort of like what we have today.

[MyriVerse]

I know it's not a popular suggestion but I think they should be MPs. The military is trained to be disciplined and when you screw up big you are answerable for your actions. They don't need to have the weapons and vehicles that the military has but they need military discipline.

Um. No. The biggest discipline in the military is coverup.

[Kirby101]

I believe that was your standard when you said that arbitrary medieval justice is sort of like what we have today.

This is the quote I reacted to.

but in both the cases the justice were administrated in a very arbitrary way, so at a certain point of their history every civilizations solved that problem creating a Police Force

Do you think today's Police force has solved the problem of arbitrary justice? Do you disagree that there is a big disparity on how justice is served for black vs white or rich vs poor?

Or do you think the wide difference on everything from Marijuana arrest to the death penalty is true equal justice?

[skyvolt2000]

Coleman Huges, Larry Elder, the ex Police Officer Brandon Tatum and I could go on.

Yes you could go on. However there is an issue with our justice system that needs to be looked at.

I would NEVER support defunding the police. But I would support a complete and review and revamp of police policies and systems.

Why????

I lost a cousin at the hands of a cop. My cousin was chasing a thug who robbed his house a SECOND time with his mother and wife there. Cop shots him and LOL the thug was never arrested.

I have a cousin who IS a cop and got shot at July 7th-a few years back. If what happened to Philando Clark did NOT happen-he doesn't get shot at.

To piggyback on what Kirby said-

Why are black folks the main ones going to jail for drug offenses? Sometimes at LONGER jail sentences and sometimes a LONGER jail sentence than killing another black person.

I have had students MURDER other black males and got jail sentences below 5 years. Some got longer sentences for robbery or drugs.

I had one kill a white boy and got LIFE+60 years.

Why are they so quick to send the killers of black males back into the community faster then the white ones?

There needs to be a better way to VENT folks who want to be cops so we don't get bad apples.

We need a better system to protect those who rat out bad cops so we don't get Renege the tv series with Lorenzo Llamas.

[DrNewGod]

So put in jail a murder, a thief, a rapist, a pusher isn't justice? Interesting.
Anyway the root of justice is the Latin word iustus, derived from ius iuris which was the Latin word for law, rights, fairness and equity; in fact ius iuris is also the root of both just than jurisprudence.

You are correct. I had it mixed up with iudicium, or judgement. That said, justice is an idea, not a fact. Punishment does offer some closure to victims, but there's no making crimes right. The purpose legal consequences is to remove threats from society and hopefully deter future threats. There is no absolute, metaphysical "right". At least, not in anything cooked up by humans.

[Gotham citizen]

So? A few black people who don't agree with the vast majority of black people. And the difference in law enforcement toward people of color is statistically demonstrable. And that is the point, there is a disparity in all parts of the Justice system.

Actually in the video I linked the statistics were used to confute the theory of the systemic racism in the Police.

[Tendrin]

Actually in the video I linked the statistics were used to confute the theory of the systemic racism in the Police.

I just had a big laugh. Thanks for that.

[Mister Mets]

This is the quote I reacted to.



Do you think today's Police force has solved the problem of arbitrary justice? Do you disagree that there is a big disparity on how justice is served for black vs white or rich vs poor?

Or do you think the wide difference on everything from Marijuana arrest to the death penalty is true equal justice?

I believe it's not perfect, but it closer to the ideal than to justice under the medieval era.

[Kirby101]

I believe it's not perfect, but it closer to the ideal than to justice under the medieval era.

Sure but do you agree that the problem has been solved?

history every civilizations solved that problem creating a Police Force

[Jim Kelly]

Vancouver city council passes motion deprioritizing policing in mental health calls and social issues

Vancouver City Council’s Standing Committee on Policy and Strategic Priorities, in a virtual meeting Monday night, passed a motion to shift police priorities and funding away from mental health emergencies and social issues, allowing instead for a community-led approach in dealing with these areas.

An amendment to Councillor Jean Swanson’s motion, as moved by Councilor Pete Fry, calls for “a plan, timeline and budget to deprioritize policing as a response to mental health, sex work, homelessness, and substance use and to prioritize funding community-led groups, non-profit societies and others with the experience and training to deliver harm reduction and safety initiatives in these areas.”

The amended motion also calls for ongoing consultation with individuals with lived experience and specialized community groups for direction on how the city can support existing and future community-based harm reduction and safety services.

[Tien Long]

This is an interesting thread. Over the past two months, I've been researching and studying police as well as the related topics of racism, white fragility, and African-American history. I've learned some things, but I've still a long way to go. I've seen friends on both sides post on social media, whether it's saying "**** you" to anyone who's related to a cop or saying they'd shoot any protester who'd take down a statue. A former student of mine posted that NYTimes opinion piece on abolishing the police. Me, I'm not ready to commit to anything just yet.

There are definitely moments of reflection and reconciliation. Black colleagues at the school where I'm a teacher tell me of the numerous instances that they've been pulled over for doing nothing. Scholarly articles echo what some posters have stated, that the police have always kept order. And, for a long time, order in this country has been (according to articles) about oppressing the poor, the immigrants, and especially Blacks https://plsonline.eku.edu/sites/plso...cing-in-us.pdf

Watched some clips on why the police look like the military (talks about the 1997 North Hollywood shoot out and the "warrior mentality") (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOAOVbyfjA0)

Also learned what defunding the police means https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9w841nrIBg.

At the same time, I remember conversations with ex-cops who became security guards at schools I've subbed at. They tell me how a good day for them is when everyone, the bad guys included, aren't hurt and everyone comes home the way they came. They tell me how the crazies who just get into the force to "shoot the bad guys" are quickly phased out. I know that several of my students' parents, both Black and white, serve on my city's police force.

This clip of a cop shows some of the reasons why he joined the force. It also provides thoughts on other topics.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAPTWTmlc8Q

Personally, I think we should look into the 10 Recommendations given by Campaign Zero, which were formed with suggestions by community leaders, activists, and President Obama's Task Force on 21st Century Policing: https://www.joincampaignzero.org/sol...utionsoverview.

Together, we can reform. Reform should be the aim. Because the next step is revolution. And revolutions are always messy.

Finally, I want to ask your thoughts. Over the few weeks before and during July 4th here in my city, there were a lot of people shooting illegal fireworks. The 4th was especially rough, since people were shooting fireworks on seemingly every block. Some individuals let loose a whole box of fireworks in the middle of the street. It got to the point where one of my neighbors took out his baseball bat and was ready to do something about this. So, in this instance, how could it have been resolved? Under defunding the police principles, would social workers have gone into the streets and deescalated the situation? At the same time, would cops armed in SWAT gear have worked? Building relationships with the community is good, but in that moment, can you build a relationship then? So, what should have been done?

It's a sad situation right now. There's distrust with the police, spurred by a violence to the body that many Blacks are (and have been) familiar with. For a long time. At the same time, I hear how a lot of cops are leaving the force now. Public thinks we're the bad guys? Public says "**** you" if you're related to a cop? An entire life ruined because of a smartphone clip? Well, "**** you" back.

Lots to think about everyone.

[Mister Mets]

Sure but do you agree that the problem has been solved?

Nothing's ever completely solved. Modern medicine, access to public schools, rule of law, and modern policing have made many things significant better than it was generations ago, but there's still room for improvement in all categories.