Who are the most complex/layered characters in the Marvel Universe?

[Crossfist]

Who in the Marvel Universe would you say offers some of the most character depth, progression or complexity?

[K7P5V]

Here's a countdown for My Top 3 choices...

3. Helmut's Baron Zemo





2. Thanos





1. Dr. Doom

[Tony Stark]

Tony Stark/Iron Man

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Daredevil.

[etrumble]

Here's a countdown for My Top 3 choices...

3. Helmut's Baron Zemo





2. Thanos





1. Dr. Doom

Can't argue with those.

Perhaps throw Magneto in there somewhere?

Not sure what it says when the villains seem to have greater complexity/depth/progression. At least the complexity portion falls to the villain side.

[Crossfist]

Where is that Doom panel from?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

In general, Marvel Comics is not the place you go to find realistic believable psychology, and obviously it varies from story to story and writer to writer.

Let's assume a spectrum exists between 1 to 10, with 1 being say Mark Millar's run on The Ultimates which has no realistic psychology or believable characters anywhere and 10 being Moore and Gibbons' WATCHMEN...I don't think any Marvel Comic makes it to 10. Watchmen is the only comic with superheroes in them which has characters and complexity that rivals the best movies and best literature and theater and no comic with superheroes since then -- not Marvel, not DC, not anyone, not even Moore -- has come close. The classic Marvel era of the '60s generally have characters making it past 5 (or as Moore himself said, two-dimensional characters).

So in the solid middle between say 7-9

(In no order)
Doctor Doom -- in Triumph and Torment, where Victor's two sides, his heroic and villainous nature are so mixed as to be inextricable, his damnation is the same as his apotheosis. Good and evil really war inside Doctor Doom's inner being in a way that's always fascinating.

J. Jonah Jameson -- no other character in the Marvel Universe has taught people more about the complexity of real people than Jonah. Jameson is a crusty bad boss but he's also somehow fun to watch and be around. He makes mistakes but he also makes great acts of heroism. He's a miser but he's also incredibly generous. Jameson's complexity is illustrated best in the Lee-Ditko era, in ASM#91-92, in ASM#246, and in Chip Zdarsky's recent masterpiece single issue "My Dinner with Jonah", Spectacular Spider-Man #6. J.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man -- Peter is that rare thing, a really rounded complex picture of an entirely good person. And there are many stories that convey that. The best one I think is ASM#248 -- "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man" which is not just a tearjerker story, or a human interest story, but it's also a deep exploration of who Peter Parker is as a person, and the great difficulty and price you pay for being a good man in a world that too often punishes it.

Mary Jane Watson -- The Love Interest as a character has fallen by the wayside because so many, rightly, see it as a kind of prop for male characters or a prize, and without agency. That's been true for a lot of ladies in comics, and definitely the case with Lois Lane. In either case, Mary Jane Watson is the most complex, layered, and interesting version of that trope...to the point that she's not just a love-interest for Peter, but the second most important character in Spider-Man after Peter Parker. So many writers (Conway, Stern, DeFalco, Michelinie, Fraction, JMS) and in Ultimate Marvel (Bendis) have dove deep and unlocked shades in her. She was the most complex and best written female character Stan Lee ever made (not that that's saying much) but she became so much deeper after that in later hands. The epilogue in ASM#122 is still today one of the most impressive feats of pencilling (by Romita Sr.) in terms of nonverbal communicating of interior character growth.

Emma Frost -- Grant Morrison's run is famous for making one lasting permanent addition to the X-Mythos, the redemption of Emma Frost...where somehow without dialing down Emma's snobbism, her b---hiness, her arrogance...he gets readers to care about her. The moment in his New X-Men run where Emma breaks down and admits to Wolverine that she loves Cyclops is one of the most emotional moments in X-men. And Emma's complexity is on full display in Hickman's HOX/POX and Gerry Duggan's MARAUDERS where altruistic motives and mercantile ones are always intermixed.

Magneto -- Which character has changed as much as Magneto. How did a panto Doom knockoff by Lee-Kirby became a notable and iconic Marvel character, to the point that in the general public, he has outshone Doom himself in fame (at least pending Doom's MCU debut)? Chris Claremont is part of the reason. The main thing about Magneto is that he's always, even today, an unpredictable mixed character tilting between heroism and villainy. He's suffered more than most people should ever experience, so furious and righteous in his cry and yearning for justice that it's legitimately frightening and upsetting. And so tragic and lonely that he deserves a hug. Key stories for Magneto -- UXM#148-150, UXM#199-200, Cullen Bunn's MAGNETO series, and Hickman's HOX/POX. Bunn's Magneto gives a majestic character defining speech:
-- "Anger. Hatred. Fear. These forces...more than any other...have fuelled me...defined who I am...and carved out the legacy I will leave behind...how will I be remembered? Not as a hero...not as a protector of my people. My legend will be that of a mutant boogeyman bent on punishing the sins of the past...a creature driven by cold-blooded vengeance...with the fury and power of a wrathful god at his fingertips. Unstoppable...unrelenting...unforgiving."
— Magneto (2014) #21, written by Cullen Bunn.

Hank Pym -- Hank Pym's downfall in Jim Shooter and Roger Stern's epic 20 issue run (Avengers #211-220) is still today one of the most realistic stories Marvel ever put out. You get to see how a man who started out decently becomes an abuser, and falls to the lowest depths, most of his own making. The self-loathing, paranoia, disgust, and hatred is still a sad and painful cautionary tale where readers get to see in a superhero someone not very different from people they have heard of, or people they know from relationships, either their abusive father, abusive boyfriend, uncle, or loser friend. Hank Pym's off-screen resentment and frustration, i.e. being the weak Avenger and unpopular Avenger, becomes a correlative to a character's frustration of being a supporting character to someone else's story and that sends him on a spiral where he hurts others and hurts himself, before finding not redemption but acknowledgement, a bit like the end of RAGING Bull, where Hank realizes that he's not a superhero and doesn't deserve to be one, and in the process does something heroic:
--- "I did a pretty good job of screwing up my life recently. You just about finished the job for me! You used me, egghead...and you tried to make me a criminal! But you couldn't, you see. I've come to terms with myself in the past month. I know who I am, and who I'm not! I'm not Ant-Man anymore, I'm not Giant-Man...or Goliath...or Yellow-Jacket! I am Henry Pym! And it was Henry Pym who beat the Masters of Evil!"

Sergei Kravinoff, in Kraven's Last Hunt -- Kraven the Hunter somehow became the star of the best Spider-Man story told from a villain's perspective. We come to understand Kraven's worldview, a psychopathic world that sees meaning in a darwinian self against the world struggle where the desire for greatness comes from a fear of death. Kraven's inhuman perspective, leads him to be incapable of understanding the humanity of Spider-Man but value entirely the strength of a warrior. Kraven's success in his own criteria of excellence doesn't win him solace, and ultimately that takes him to suicide.

These characters I would say have had more in-panel and in-page moments of interiority, inner depth and complexity, and shades that always make what they do interesting, with many different layers for their actions at least in the key stories.

[K7P5V]

Where is that Doom panel from?

Namor: The Sub-Mariner #33
(December, 1992)

[Riv86672]

Ben Grimm, Luke Cage, Spider-man all come to mind.

[Crossfist]

In general, Marvel Comics is not the place you go to find realistic believable psychology, and obviously it varies from story to story and writer to writer.

Let's assume a spectrum exists between 1 to 10, with 1 being say Mark Millar's run on The Ultimates which has no realistic psychology or believable characters anywhere and 10 being Moore and Gibbons' WATCHMEN...I don't think any Marvel Comic makes it to 10. Watchmen is the only comic with superheroes in them which has characters and complexity that rivals the best movies and best literature and theater and no comic with superheroes since then -- not Marvel, not DC, not anyone, not even Moore -- has come close. The classic Marvel era of the '60s generally have characters making it past 5 (or as Moore himself said, two-dimensional characters).

So in the solid middle between say 7-9

(In no order)
Doctor Doom -- in Triumph and Torment, where Victor's two sides, his heroic and villainous nature are so mixed as to be inextricable, his damnation is the same as his apotheosis. Good and evil really war inside Doctor Doom's inner being in a way that's always fascinating.

J. Jonah Jameson -- no other character in the Marvel Universe has taught people more about the complexity of real people than Jonah. Jameson is a crusty bad boss but he's also somehow fun to watch and be around. He makes mistakes but he also makes great acts of heroism. He's a miser but he's also incredibly generous. Jameson's complexity is illustrated best in the Lee-Ditko era, in ASM#91-92, in ASM#246, and in Chip Zdarsky's recent masterpiece single issue "My Dinner with Jonah", Spectacular Spider-Man #6. J.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man -- Peter is that rare thing, a really rounded complex picture of an entirely good person. And there are many stories that convey that. The best one I think is ASM#248 -- "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man" which is not just a tearjerker story, or a human interest story, but it's also a deep exploration of who Peter Parker is as a person, and the great difficulty and price you pay for being a good man in a world that too often punishes it.

Mary Jane Watson -- The Love Interest as a character has fallen by the wayside because so many, rightly, see it as a kind of prop for male characters or a prize, and without agency. That's been true for a lot of ladies in comics, and definitely the case with Lois Lane. In either case, Mary Jane Watson is the most complex, layered, and interesting version of that trope...to the point that she's not just a love-interest for Peter, but the second most important character in Spider-Man after Peter Parker. So many writers (Conway, Stern, DeFalco, Michelinie, Fraction, JMS) and in Ultimate Marvel (Bendis) have dove deep and unlocked shades in her. She was the most complex and best written female character Stan Lee ever made (not that that's saying much) but she became so much deeper after that in later hands. The epilogue in ASM#122 is still today one of the most impressive feats of pencilling (by Romita Sr.) in terms of nonverbal communicating of interior character growth.

Emma Frost -- Grant Morrison's run is famous for making one lasting permanent addition to the X-Mythos, the redemption of Emma Frost...where somehow without dialing down Emma's snobbism, her b---hiness, her arrogance...he gets readers to care about her. The moment in his New X-Men run where Emma breaks down and admits to Wolverine that she loves Cyclops is one of the most emotional moments in X-men. And Emma's complexity is on full display in Hickman's HOX/POX and Gerry Duggan's MARAUDERS where altruistic motives and mercantile ones are always intermixed.

Magneto -- Which character has changed as much as Magneto. How did a panto Doom knockoff by Lee-Kirby became a notable and iconic Marvel character, to the point that in the general public, he has outshone Doom himself in fame (at least pending Doom's MCU debut)? Chris Claremont is part of the reason. The main thing about Magneto is that he's always, even today, an unpredictable mixed character tilting between heroism and villainy. He's suffered more than most people should ever experience, so furious and righteous in his cry and yearning for justice that it's legitimately frightening and upsetting. And so tragic and lonely that he deserves a hug. Key stories for Magneto -- UXM#148-150, UXM#199-200, Cullen Bunn's MAGNETO series, and Hickman's HOX/POX. Bunn's Magneto gives a majestic character defining speech:
-- "Anger. Hatred. Fear. These forces...more than any other...have fuelled me...defined who I am...and carved out the legacy I will leave behind...how will I be remembered? Not as a hero...not as a protector of my people. My legend will be that of a mutant boogeyman bent on punishing the sins of the past...a creature driven by cold-blooded vengeance...with the fury and power of a wrathful god at his fingertips. Unstoppable...unrelenting...unforgiving."
— Magneto (2014) #21, written by Cullen Bunn.

Hank Pym -- Hank Pym's downfall in Jim Shooter and Roger Stern's epic 20 issue run (Avengers #211-220) is still today one of the most realistic stories Marvel ever put out. You get to see how a man who started out decently becomes an abuser, and falls to the lowest depths, most of his own making. The self-loathing, paranoia, disgust, and hatred is still a sad and painful cautionary tale where readers get to see in a superhero someone not very different from people they have heard of, or people they know from relationships, either their abusive father, abusive boyfriend, uncle, or loser friend. Hank Pym's off-screen resentment and frustration, i.e. being the weak Avenger and unpopular Avenger, becomes a correlative to a character's frustration of being a supporting character to someone else's story and that sends him on a spiral where he hurts others and hurts himself, before finding not redemption but acknowledgement, a bit like the end of RAGING Bull, where Hank realizes that he's not a superhero and doesn't deserve to be one, and in the process does something heroic:
--- "I did a pretty good job of screwing up my life recently. You just about finished the job for me! You used me, egghead...and you tried to make me a criminal! But you couldn't, you see. I've come to terms with myself in the past month. I know who I am, and who I'm not! I'm not Ant-Man anymore, I'm not Giant-Man...or Goliath...or Yellow-Jacket! I am Henry Pym! And it was Henry Pym who beat the Masters of Evil!"

Sergei Kravinoff, in Kraven's Last Hunt -- Kraven the Hunter somehow became the star of the best Spider-Man story told from a villain's perspective. We come to understand Kraven's worldview, a psychopathic world that sees meaning in a darwinian self against the world struggle where the desire for greatness comes from a fear of death. Kraven's inhuman perspective, leads him to be incapable of understanding the humanity of Spider-Man but value entirely the strength of a warrior. Kraven's success in his own criteria of excellence doesn't win him solace, and ultimately that takes him to suicide.

These characters I would say have had more in-panel and in-page moments of interiority, inner depth and complexity, and shades that always make what they do interesting, with many different layers for their actions at least in the key stories.

I still have to read Watchmen myself to understand that spectrum, but awesome post regardless.

[CJStriker]

Wanda Maximoff/The Scarlet Witch!

Really Wanda is the Iron Lady of Marvel with how much she has had to Rise and Fall and then Rise with how deep, complex and storied her history is;

* A Poor Girl in a Very Hard upbring in the European Cold Mountains with only her Brother!

* Being almost Killed, Save By Magento, Being a Part of the Brotherhood of Mutants then Joining the Avengers to make her life right!

* Being one of the Key Members of the Avengers Storied History!

* Showing True Love can be with any-being with the Vision!

* Have a Family and Kids and then Losing them and having to Rise about it all to make herself strong!

* Learning Magic from Morgan le Fay and being a Key player with Dr. Strange in the Mystical Legion of heroes!

* Learning her Family was originally that of Magneto and then Losing that history and her mutant history and having to refined herself!

* Having to Rising up after the events of House of M going Threw Children's Crusade and AvX to help to right wrong in the past!

* Being both the Leader of Force Works and the Avengers!

* Learning about Choas Magic, Reality Warping and her Connection to Chthon!

* Bonding with her Lost then Resurrect Children Wiccan and Speed!

* Those and Much More!


These are why I think Wanda is one of the Most Complex and Deep charcters in Marvel!

[macjr33]

Daredevil.

This!

There is so much about Matt that makes him a compelling and complex character. He is a lawyer that is also a vigilante, he is a Catholic who dresses like the devil and beats people within an inch of their life. And while he has enhanced senses that benefit him greatly, he still has a disability that can hinder him. He was one of the few heroes I can think of that got their "powers" through an act of heroism as he pushed the blind man out of the way from the oncoming truck that was carrying the radioactive material. He makes mistakes and he has had to suffer the consequences for them. I like that he grew up poor and that he feels so connected to Hell's Kitchen and the people in it. He feels very human and more relatable than most of the characters in the Marvel Universe. Part of this is because writers are often given the latitude to write him in ways they may not be able to write for other characters.

I am reminded of an interview I saw with Frank Miller (I think it was part of some bonus content for the Daredevil film), where Miller states that Matt should probably be a villain given all that has happened to him in his life. Yet, he finds the strength to persevere, he doesn't give up. That to me makes him a fascinating character.

[Triniking1234]

Peter Parker (Spider-Man), Emma Frost, Magneto

[Personamanx]

The Marvel character with the most complex layers is undoubtedly Paige Guthrie (AKA Husk).

[Sin Nick]

I ain't about to write some essay on the subject, but when I think of complex characters, Wolverine is the first that comes to mind. Especially when you think of how he originated as a character and to where he is now. You wanna talk about layers? The dude is riddled with 'em, many unnecessary IMO. It's almost like every writer(and he has a lot of them) that gets a shot at Wolverine feels the need to add something to his character or history, whether it be good or bad.

Others I'd add are Storm, Gambit, Cyclops(in recent years), and the Hulk(with his ever changing personalities).