Who are the most complex/layered characters in the Marvel Universe?

[GOLGO 13]

It's done right less than I'd like, but The Sub-Mariner belongs on this list. Arrogant, yet noble and decent. Heroic, but not necessarily a hero in service of the surface world, and not the least hesitant to serve his own people's interests at anyone else's expense. Hot-tempered, but often wise and great hearted. Truly complex since 1939.
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- Guy is the King of the earth's oceans.
- Guy single-handedly takes on the entire FF/Hulk for just looking at him wrong.
- Flirts with Sue right in front of Reed like a Boss.
- Flirts with Emma right in front of Scott like a Boss.
- Takes on the entire Wakanda/BP nation because of whatever.
- Chills with Dr. Doom on a regular.
- Down with the Illuminati

This guy is all over the place & DNGAF what people think of him.

[Iron Maiden]

Janet Van Dyne has evolved nicely since her beginnings.

And then Marvel made her disappear for a while and we got the younger version

[Iron Maiden]

- Guy is the King of the earth's oceans.
- Guy single-handedly takes on the entire FF/Hulk for just looking at him wrong.
- Flirts with Sue right in front of Reed like a Boss.
- Flirts with Emma right in front of Scott like a Boss.
- Takes on the entire Wakanda/BP nation because of whatever.
- Chills with Dr. Doom on a regular.
- Down with the Illuminati

This guy is all over the place & DNGAF what people think of him.

Marvel writers don't always do Namor his proper due IMO. I was very disappointed in how he was treated by Hickman and was treated like sh*t by Thanos. Then Namor was betrayed by Black Bolt and Black Panther when he laid a trap for Thanos & his Cabal.

[The True Detective]

In general, Marvel Comics is not the place you go to find realistic believable psychology, and obviously it varies from story to story and writer to writer.

Let's assume a spectrum exists between 1 to 10, with 1 being say Mark Millar's run on The Ultimates which has no realistic psychology or believable characters anywhere and 10 being Moore and Gibbons' WATCHMEN...I don't think any Marvel Comic makes it to 10. Watchmen is the only comic with superheroes in them which has characters and complexity that rivals the best movies and best literature and theater and no comic with superheroes since then -- not Marvel, not DC, not anyone, not even Moore -- has come close. The classic Marvel era of the '60s generally have characters making it past 5 (or as Moore himself said, two-dimensional characters).

So in the solid middle between say 7-9

(In no order)
Doctor Doom -- in Triumph and Torment, where Victor's two sides, his heroic and villainous nature are so mixed as to be inextricable, his damnation is the same as his apotheosis. Good and evil really war inside Doctor Doom's inner being in a way that's always fascinating.

J. Jonah Jameson -- no other character in the Marvel Universe has taught people more about the complexity of real people than Jonah. Jameson is a crusty bad boss but he's also somehow fun to watch and be around. He makes mistakes but he also makes great acts of heroism. He's a miser but he's also incredibly generous. Jameson's complexity is illustrated best in the Lee-Ditko era, in ASM#91-92, in ASM#246, and in Chip Zdarsky's recent masterpiece single issue "My Dinner with Jonah", Spectacular Spider-Man #6. J.

Peter Parker, Spider-Man -- Peter is that rare thing, a really rounded complex picture of an entirely good person. And there are many stories that convey that. The best one I think is ASM#248 -- "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man" which is not just a tearjerker story, or a human interest story, but it's also a deep exploration of who Peter Parker is as a person, and the great difficulty and price you pay for being a good man in a world that too often punishes it.

Mary Jane Watson -- The Love Interest as a character has fallen by the wayside because so many, rightly, see it as a kind of prop for male characters or a prize, and without agency. That's been true for a lot of ladies in comics, and definitely the case with Lois Lane. In either case, Mary Jane Watson is the most complex, layered, and interesting version of that trope...to the point that she's not just a love-interest for Peter, but the second most important character in Spider-Man after Peter Parker. So many writers (Conway, Stern, DeFalco, Michelinie, Fraction, JMS) and in Ultimate Marvel (Bendis) have dove deep and unlocked shades in her. She was the most complex and best written female character Stan Lee ever made (not that that's saying much) but she became so much deeper after that in later hands. The epilogue in ASM#122 is still today one of the most impressive feats of pencilling (by Romita Sr.) in terms of nonverbal communicating of interior character growth.

Emma Frost -- Grant Morrison's run is famous for making one lasting permanent addition to the X-Mythos, the redemption of Emma Frost...where somehow without dialing down Emma's snobbism, her b---hiness, her arrogance...he gets readers to care about her. The moment in his New X-Men run where Emma breaks down and admits to Wolverine that she loves Cyclops is one of the most emotional moments in X-men. And Emma's complexity is on full display in Hickman's HOX/POX and Gerry Duggan's MARAUDERS where altruistic motives and mercantile ones are always intermixed.

Magneto -- Which character has changed as much as Magneto. How did a panto Doom knockoff by Lee-Kirby became a notable and iconic Marvel character, to the point that in the general public, he has outshone Doom himself in fame (at least pending Doom's MCU debut)? Chris Claremont is part of the reason. The main thing about Magneto is that he's always, even today, an unpredictable mixed character tilting between heroism and villainy. He's suffered more than most people should ever experience, so furious and righteous in his cry and yearning for justice that it's legitimately frightening and upsetting. And so tragic and lonely that he deserves a hug. Key stories for Magneto -- UXM#148-150, UXM#199-200, Cullen Bunn's MAGNETO series, and Hickman's HOX/POX. Bunn's Magneto gives a majestic character defining speech:
-- "Anger. Hatred. Fear. These forces...more than any other...have fuelled me...defined who I am...and carved out the legacy I will leave behind...how will I be remembered? Not as a hero...not as a protector of my people. My legend will be that of a mutant boogeyman bent on punishing the sins of the past...a creature driven by cold-blooded vengeance...with the fury and power of a wrathful god at his fingertips. Unstoppable...unrelenting...unforgiving."
— Magneto (2014) #21, written by Cullen Bunn.

Hank Pym -- Hank Pym's downfall in Jim Shooter and Roger Stern's epic 20 issue run (Avengers #211-220) is still today one of the most realistic stories Marvel ever put out. You get to see how a man who started out decently becomes an abuser, and falls to the lowest depths, most of his own making. The self-loathing, paranoia, disgust, and hatred is still a sad and painful cautionary tale where readers get to see in a superhero someone not very different from people they have heard of, or people they know from relationships, either their abusive father, abusive boyfriend, uncle, or loser friend. Hank Pym's off-screen resentment and frustration, i.e. being the weak Avenger and unpopular Avenger, becomes a correlative to a character's frustration of being a supporting character to someone else's story and that sends him on a spiral where he hurts others and hurts himself, before finding not redemption but acknowledgement, a bit like the end of RAGING Bull, where Hank realizes that he's not a superhero and doesn't deserve to be one, and in the process does something heroic:
--- "I did a pretty good job of screwing up my life recently. You just about finished the job for me! You used me, egghead...and you tried to make me a criminal! But you couldn't, you see. I've come to terms with myself in the past month. I know who I am, and who I'm not! I'm not Ant-Man anymore, I'm not Giant-Man...or Goliath...or Yellow-Jacket! I am Henry Pym! And it was Henry Pym who beat the Masters of Evil!"

Sergei Kravinoff, in Kraven's Last Hunt -- Kraven the Hunter somehow became the star of the best Spider-Man story told from a villain's perspective. We come to understand Kraven's worldview, a psychopathic world that sees meaning in a darwinian self against the world struggle where the desire for greatness comes from a fear of death. Kraven's inhuman perspective, leads him to be incapable of understanding the humanity of Spider-Man but value entirely the strength of a warrior. Kraven's success in his own criteria of excellence doesn't win him solace, and ultimately that takes him to suicide.

These characters I would say have had more in-panel and in-page moments of interiority, inner depth and complexity, and shades that always make what they do interesting, with many different layers for their actions at least in the key stories.

I agree with most of your points but I don't know if I can get behind your point of non Watchmen comic book characters not being as complex as characters in other mediums when the role of the Joker has helped 2 actors win an Oscar. I've heard people call Joker America's version of Hamlet. The Dark Knight forced the Academy to expand the number of films eligible for Best Picture, Logan had Oscar buzz for Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart and Black Panther was nominated for Best Picture.

I don't think all of that would be possible if these characters weren't very deep or complex.

[ARkadelphia]

And then Marvel made her disappear for a while and we got the younger version

Well I like Nadia too so I won’t criticise the younger version. We could really use a Wasps book though.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I agree with most of your points but I don't know if I can get behind your point of non Watchmen comic book characters not being as complex as characters in other mediums...

I was trying to establish some criteria for what we mean by "the most complex layered characters". At least for me. Because otherwise it can be misused to apply to "character I like/character I think is cool" and so on and so forth. I think "as complex as Watchmen" is a good safe criteria because all the characters in Watchmen, both the main superhero characters and even some of the civilian characters and supporting cast (Dr. Malcolm Long, Sally Jupiter, Hollis Mason, Bernard) are complexly drawn fully realized characters with interiority and three-dimensional characterization. When I say that, I mean that you have characters with a strong sense of interiority (i.e. personal feelings, thoughts, dreams, ideals, sentiments, biography). Their personalities are formed over a period of time and in reaction to society and the world around them. They are also full of the cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy, and projection that real people indulge in, and nobody is entirely slaves to type or reducible to motivation and idea. Whereas in general most ongoing serial superhero stories taken as aggregate don't have those qualities. Some characters and stories have that in some instances and in some writers and not others.

... when the role of the Joker has helped 2 actors win an Oscar.

1) The Oscars are a sham. Lots of bad movies and bad performances have won Oscars. Not saying that's the case with Ledger and Phoenix, but just because they won awards, that doesn't mean anything by itself.

2) Oscars award performance and not the characterization. Yeah there's a link but you can give a great performance by playing a one-dimensional character. Like Tom Hanks' Forrest Gump is a fairly one-dimensional character and it's an excellent performance (in a movie that is overrated and largely not aged very well).

I've heard people call Joker America's version of Hamlet.

That's too pretentious. Anyway this is a Marvel thread not a DC one. And we are dealing with the comics rather than adaptations. I will say that the two Joker movies in question -- Nolan's The Dark Knight, Joker 2019 -- were done in a style quite divorced from the typical trappings of the comic book genre and the supermovie genre. Neither of them are in any sense faithful to the Joker of the comics and so do not qualify as a vindication of it.

[Huntsman Spider]

Well I like Nadia too so I won’t criticise the younger version. We could really use a Wasps book though.

That would be the best of both worlds, like the She-Hulks miniseries with Jennifer and Lyra about a decade ago.

[maximoffimpact]

Wanda Maximoff/The Scarlet Witch!

Really Wanda is the Iron Lady of Marvel with how much she has had to Rise and Fall and then Rise with how deep, complex and storied her history is;

* A Poor Girl in a Very Hard upbring in the European Cold Mountains with only her Brother!

* Being almost Killed, Save By Magento, Being a Part of the Brotherhood of Mutants then Joining the Avengers to make her life right!

* Being one of the Key Members of the Avengers Storied History!

* Showing True Love can be with any-being with the Vision!

* Have a Family and Kids and then Losing them and having to Rise about it all to make herself strong!

* Learning Magic from Morgan le Fay and being a Key player with Dr. Strange in the Mystical Legion of heroes!

* Learning her Family was originally that of Magneto and then Losing that history and her mutant history and having to refined herself!

* Having to Rising up after the events of House of M going Threw Children's Crusade and AvX to help to right wrong in the past!

* Being both the Leader of Force Works and the Avengers!

* Learning about Choas Magic, Reality Warping and her Connection to Chthon!

* Bonding with her Lost then Resurrect Children Wiccan and Speed!

* Those and Much More!


These are why I think Wanda is one of the Most Complex and Deep charcters in Marvel!

Wanda definitely belongs on that list of most complexed characters of Marvel comics! She is a character with a tremendous amount of depth and many layers that are nuanced through experiences of life, love, loss, tragedy, spirit, determination, growth, passion and joy.

[Chris0013]

Justice. He isn't a big name but as a character he has been through a lot and been well developed.

[The True Detective]

I was trying to establish some criteria for what we mean by "the most complex layered characters". At least for me. Because otherwise it can be misused to apply to "character I like/character I think is cool" and so on and so forth. I think "as complex as Watchmen" is a good safe criteria because all the characters in Watchmen, both the main superhero characters and even some of the civilian characters and supporting cast (Dr. Malcolm Long, Sally Jupiter, Hollis Mason, Bernard) are complexly drawn fully realized characters with interiority and three-dimensional characterization. When I say that, I mean that you have characters with a strong sense of interiority (i.e. personal feelings, thoughts, dreams, ideals, sentiments, biography). Their personalities are formed over a period of time and in reaction to society and the world around them. They are also full of the cognitive dissonance, hypocrisy, and projection that real people indulge in, and nobody is entirely slaves to type or reducible to motivation and idea. Whereas in general most ongoing serial superhero stories taken as aggregate don't have those qualities. Some characters and stories have that in some instances and in some writers and not others.



1) The Oscars are a sham. Lots of bad movies and bad performances have won Oscars. Not saying that's the case with Ledger and Phoenix, but just because they won awards, that doesn't mean anything by itself.

2) Oscars award performance and not the characterization. Yeah there's a link but you can give a great performance by playing a one-dimensional character. Like Tom Hanks' Forrest Gump is a fairly one-dimensional character and it's an excellent performance (in a movie that is overrated and largely not aged very well).



That's too pretentious. Anyway this is a Marvel thread not a DC one. And we are dealing with the comics rather than adaptations. I will say that the two Joker movies in question -- Nolan's The Dark Knight, Joker 2019 -- were done in a style quite divorced from the typical trappings of the comic book genre and the supermovie genre. Neither of them are in any sense faithful to the Joker of the comics and so do not qualify as a vindication of it.

I know this is a Marvel forum, but dude, you brought up Watchmen (DC characters) first. IMO Wolverine and Professor X from Logan and MCU Killmonger are just as compkex as the characters in Watchmen.

Anyway I just think superheroes are a little more complex than you gave them credit for, but you make very interesting points so I really enjoy hearing what you have to say. You seem to really put time and effort into your posts so I like reading your thoughts even if I don't always agree with you.

[BroHomo]

The Marvel character with the most complex layers is undoubtedly Paige Guthrie (AKA Husk).

This is the one and only truth!!!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I know this is a Marvel forum, but dude, you brought up Watchmen (DC characters) first.

Watchmen is Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons first, and DC a very distant second. I brought up a 12 issue standalone miniseries (entirely separate from and divorced from the mainstream DC Universe) that was intended to be told entirely in the comics medium as a reference for character complexity in discussing what are largely comics characters in an ongoing contained universe.

IMO Wolverine and Professor X from Logan and MCU Killmonger are just as compkex as the characters in Watchmen.

Obviously movies and comics are entirely different mediums. My point in bringing Watchmen was to suggest an ideal for comics storytelling. What can be done with comics, using the same genre material, and what is the most complex characters you can create using that material?

Watchmen fundamentally is made of the stuff of superhero comics it's just done at a very high level. And on the whole Watchmen is much closer to the Marvel Universe than the DC Universe. For one thing it's set in New York City rather than any of DC's knockoffs, it's inspired heavily by Kirby and Ditko in its art and writing.

And I don't know if those movies can be said to have complex characters. The thing about Watchmen is that it does away with the usual hero/villain dichotomy of the superhero stories...i.e. it's not the end of the world if a bad guy gets away with it, the heroes can and will compromise their beliefs in the face of Armageddon. In the case of Killmonger, wonderfully played by Michael B. Jordan, the movie fundamentally depends on him being the bad guy who should be put down by the hero. (As a sidenote, this is also why the seriously overpraised Watchmen 2019 HBO Show fails, because that story pivots on Lady Trieu as a bad guy to be put down). In the case of LOGAN, it's still a romantic movie about a hero's final quest that leads to a tragic vindication of his myth, and that's as old as King Arthur.

Anyway I just think superheroes are a little more complex than you gave them credit for,

It's no knock on Marvel that they aren't Watchmen. And for what it's worth, Marvel is nearer to Watchmen than DC.

...but you make very interesting points so I really enjoy hearing what you have to say. You seem to really put time and effort into your posts so I like reading your thoughts even if I don't always agree with you.

Thank you. And I appreciate your responses to what I have to say.

[Iron Maiden]

Well I like Nadia too so I won’t criticise the younger version. We could really use a Wasps book though.

Yeah, I do like Nadia but I don't know why that for a while there they got rid of Janet. I suppose that would be confusing to have two Wasps. But then that's why I get annoyed when a new characters is given the code name already has a strong connection to another.

[Iron Maiden]

Watchmen is Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons first, and DC a very distant second. I brought up a 12 issue standalone miniseries (entirely separate from and divorced from the mainstream DC Universe) that was intended to be told entirely in the comics medium as a reference for character complexity in discussing what are largely comics characters in an ongoing contained universe.



Obviously movies and comics are entirely different mediums. My point in bringing Watchmen was to suggest an ideal for comics storytelling. What can be done with comics, using the same genre material, and what is the most complex characters you can create using that material?

Watchmen fundamentally is made of the stuff of superhero comics it's just done at a very high level. And on the whole Watchmen is much closer to the Marvel Universe than the DC Universe. For one thing it's set in New York City rather than any of DC's knockoffs, it's inspired heavily by Kirby and Ditko in its art and writing.

And I don't know if those movies can be said to have complex characters. The thing about Watchmen is that it does away with the usual hero/villain dichotomy of the superhero stories...i.e. it's not the end of the world if a bad guy gets away with it, the heroes can and will compromise their beliefs in the face of Armageddon. In the case of Killmonger, wonderfully played by Michael B. Jordan, the movie fundamentally depends on him being the bad guy who should be put down by the hero. (As a sidenote, this is also why the seriously overpraised Watchmen 2019 HBO Show fails, because that story pivots on Lady Trieu as a bad guy to be put down). In the case of LOGAN, it's still a romantic movie about a hero's final quest that leads to a tragic vindication of his myth, and that's as old as King Arthur.



It's no knock on Marvel that they aren't Watchmen. And for what it's worth, Marvel is nearer to Watchmen than DC.



Thank you. And I appreciate your responses to what I have to say.

I'm one of the few I guess that really doesn't put Watchmen on such high pedestal. I bought the TP in anticipation of the movie that was being hyped at the time. So maybe I was anticipating too much. I did like the Rorschach character though. I think it's mostly because I don't like the darker toned themes. I get enough of that in the RW and still prefer the escapism vibe of the comics medium. IMO It's the kind of book you read once and but have no interest in revisiting it. The movie was a "C" if I were to grade it.

I was thinking about trying the HBO series since it got a slew of Emmy nominations so maybe will pass on that one.

[Chris0013]

Yeah, I do like Nadia but I don't know why that for a while there they got rid of Janet. I suppose that would be confusing to have two Wasps. But then that's why I get annoyed when a new characters is given the code name already has a strong connection to another.

They should give Jan a limited series like they did with Sue Richards. Just giver her an entertaining story with a good artist and see where it goes.