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  1. #226
    Astonishing Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    As a boy it did, as an adult he became what he hated. Every single death by his hands made it harder for mutant kind to be accepted. People don't like it when their loved ones are murdered by another group - this is the hypocrisy Eric became as a super-villain. Magneto doesn't speak just with words, he actively kills scores of people in horrifying ways. Including mutants who oppose him or are "sacrificed" to cow the world into giving him wants, which often leads to conquering a country or the world. And as you know Magneto's just one person, there are scores of mutant and who commits acts of terror in his name. This is especially bad for a marginalised sub-group who are oppressed around the world, since he isa big part of how they are represented to the world. Magneto made that himself, it's not like they voted him in to that position.
    This reads a lot like when racists post about crime in chicago and use it to imply that black people are inherently violent or something. The actions of Magneto or Apocalypse or whoever have zero to do with how accepted mutants should be.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    This reads a lot like when racists post about crime in chicago and use it to imply that black people are inherently violent or something. The actions of Magneto or Apocalypse or whoever have zero to do with how accepted mutants should be.
    Exactly could you imagine if the situation was different and people were like i will never trust a white person because of hitler, jeffrey dahmer, Donald Trump (^_^). it's absurd.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  3. #228
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Everyone knows this and nobody's saying it's not true or that crating a mutant nation in response is bad. However, what this does do is move the goal posts away from Krakao itself, don't question Krkao look at the outside world isn't a compelling argument. The context for Krakoa is that its a dictatorship filled with super-villains who barely have any restraints and has no moral high ground on human governments.
    Headcannon - There is literally zero evidence for Krakoa being a dictatorship. The supervillains explicitly are restrained, citizenship in Krakoa and gaining the human governments approved amnesty requires adherence to Krakoan laws. The context of the current run explicitly protects regular humans better than any before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    The mansion's dead, don't go back to it like it's the status quo. Mother Mold;s in outer space, not in Xavier's backyard. Except many mutants living in or working in the highest positions in government have done those things and very recently, some have spent millennia doing it.
    Your arguments here don’t make any sense, I didn’t mention the mansion, never went back to it, you brought it up all on your own.
    Mother Mold was in space and was also explicitly part of a plot to exterminate mutant-kind, you are aware of that right? Pretending otherwise is either disingenuous or you have no idea what is going on in the books.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Yes, the Russia are the bad guys in this status quo and? Ethics isn't simply about anything goes because it's someone you don't like, it's about the act itself. It has nothing to do with what genes they have have or what group they belong to.
    Where has there been anything even remotely like “Anything Goes”? The very first action of the Krakoan government was to begin establishing laws and punishing Sabertooth for killing humans. They are operating under the accepted rules of international relations (with some comic book encouragement), those used by existing governments. It was explicitly spelled out in both HoX/PoX and later at Davos that they are operating by the same rules that other governments do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Don't conflate all mutants with krakoa, that shields the monsters in the ranks which they so eloquently shield from prosecution and no, I'm not talking about sabre tooth. It's incredibly hypercritical to only count one side's bad deeds while ignoring the other for the very same crimes.
    I’m not sure you understand the concept of Amnesty. You know the one agreed to by human governments. No one’s pretending that what mutants did pre-Krakoa didn’t happen (See Gambit/Jubilee and Apocalypse), its about attempting a fresh start for the betterment of all, and so far its been remarkably successful, and with the resurrection protocols they can afford to take risks on the villains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    About the very same victims, even. I'm not talking about Beak here, I'm talking about about the biggest super-villains and their evil organisations who the X-men fought from the 60's. Context being the "current run" not the entirety off canon in Marvel 616. They didn't become redeemed angelic figures between the last X-men issue and House of X/Powers of X. They're the same people. But let's ignore what they did not humanity and non-mutants for a minute, what about all the crimes they committed on mutant kind? Why do they get the privilege of ignoring all their past crimes, and there are many which are gruesome, over their mutant victims? Some of which they share seats on the Quiet Council with.
    Yeah and? No one claimed they have been redeemed. Amnesty was granted, forgiveness for past actions in order to foster peace.

    From Wikipedia
    “An amnesty may be extended when the authority decides that bringing citizens into compliance with a law is more important than punishing them for past offenses. Amnesty after a war helps end a conflict.”
    Hmmm… what does that sound like… Oh yeah that’s exactly what happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    It's great that Krkaao is doing that for humanity, but it's nowhere near penance for the pain and suffering many of their citizens and government officials have inflicted on the world. Do they even regret this? From what I've seen they don't. They're not doing this for humanity, they've all but given up on being friendly with humanity and completely ignore every other non-mutant race. The only Atlantan they care about is Namor and only because he's a mutant, if he wasn't a mutant they wouldn't be giving him any positive attention. Krakoa isn't about "live and let live" - it's bribing countries to leave them alone while they slowly buy them out financially until mutants own the world. What's irritating is that this isn't necessarily a bad thing but how they go about it you'd think they're auditioning for Blofeld in the next James Bond. Those are separate issues with krakoa.
    You are absolutely right its not fair and they aren’t forcing penance. Again I refer you back to the concept of AMNESTY. Its not a novel concept, its been a part of real world politics for.. well forever. Lots of terrible real world monsters and villains received amnesty because results are more important than forcing the world to align with your own philosophy. Peace and pragmatism are more important than dogmatic adherence to old wounds and crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    They didn't "invite" anyone, they're not guests - they're citizens, government operatives and politicians. Apocalypse has been hurting Excalibur nearly from the start. The Quiet Council unleashed Sabretooth on an American corporation. Shaw murdered Kitty. Just because they're not doing evetything bad right now doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished or not be seen as a potential threat. The X-men weren't this lax with society when they are super-heroes, even when Magneto (and Joseph) joined. These individuals have been the biggest proponents off mutant on mutant crime until very recently, and some are still doing it. This ins't about the X-men, this is about the Krakoa government.
    Actually HoX #5 - Xavier invited the mutant villains to join Krakoa but only if they accept and follow the rules and laws. Apocalypse and Shaw aren’t breaking laws, Sabertooth was punished by the QC, it didn’t exist before. He had been tasked by Magneto and explicitly warned not to kill anyone. Also are you aware of the concept of a hierarchy of importance, Sebastian Shaw is less important than preventing genocide by murder-bot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That it is. Cult sacrifices don't have to be forced, they can be voluntary. Everything around the Crucible's ritual is suspect and in character for Apocalypse. They don't have too die like that to be resurrected, that's the problem. It's theatre, not a medical procedure. We know all the de powered mutants have to do is kill themselves to be "reborn" and they don't need extravagant cult rituals to do it. Krakao knows the outside world wouldn't approve since they're not broadcasting this ritual to the international press, instead everyone must stay quiet about it. Even people who are disturbed by it and keeping their mouths shut about it.
    Yeah and? It’s supposed to be challenging. It’s supposed to be controversial. What is death to a society of immortals? Remove “death” from the equation (they did) and prove its worse than many of the rituals and practices accepted in the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This isn't about characters being interesting, its' about characters being villains and being threats. He's been manipulating people since he joined Krakoa, that's all he'd done in Excalibur. Selene is still being a super-villain in Captain America. Msytqiyue is her same old self, her working with the X-men isn't new she's done it by secretly working as Xavier's assassin, as well as on Rogue's team - who she betrayed to Sinister. You're right this stays quo has created exciting dynamics and storylines but that's what I was talking about. It's really not that hard to agree that anyone who genocide, murder and other crimes which ruins peoples lives is wrong by anyone who does it, this shouldn't be a controversial stance anywhere but here it is. Despite knowing all you know about these characters you still don't call them villains. They're still bad guys, though. Hickman may have made a new spin, but he's repurposed old characterisations and ideas not but everything from the ground up.
    Ummm… have you even read the post you responded to? I unambiguously referred to them as villains. They are being used in new and interesting ways but they are still antagonists, just more complex and less mustache-twirling, cartoonishly simple black hats. If the concept of complex, nuanced villains with sympathetic motives isn’t to your taste then perhaps you are reading the wrong books as its been a hallmark of the series since Claremont’s first run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    And again continuing to ignore the plights of people outside the X-books. Would be interesting to see the mutants from Slovenia giving the Quiet Council a piece of their mind when they stood by and did nothing while Ultron killed them all.
    lol, really? Ignoring the plight of mutants around the world?
    The history of the X-Men has been about helping and protecting mutants around the world. In the current run 2 and a half of the main books are all about helping mutants around the world (Marauders, X-Force, and occasionally New Mutants).
    Last edited by Kisinith; 08-11-2020 at 04:26 PM.

  4. #229
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    This reads a lot like when racists post about crime in chicago and use it to imply that black people are inherently violent or something. The actions of Magneto or Apocalypse or whoever have zero to do with how accepted mutants should be.
    I disagree: it certainly doesn’t help…

    Anyway, it’s the authors’ decisions: if they want the people in MU don’t find a satisfying solution, they won’t. It’s not science…

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    This reads a lot like when racists post about crime in chicago and use it to imply that black people are inherently violent or something. The actions of Magneto or Apocalypse or whoever have zero to do with how accepted mutants should be.
    Did you experience 9/11? That terrorist attack killed thousands and gift wrapped an event to George W Bush for his administration to marginalise Muslims and throw innocent people in Guantanamo. Osama bin laden wasn't half as dangerous as those two are.

    They're mutant terrorists who spout about mutant supremacy and have large bodycounts committed to serve that purpose. Every time they do something like this it sets mutant relations back years. You don't think peoe would connect their actions to them being mutants? It's not exactly a secret.

    Now those two are legitimate faces of the Krakoan government.

  6. #231
    BANNED misty101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Did you experience 9/11? That terrorist attack killed thousands and gift wrapped an event to George W Bush for his administration to marginalise Muslims and throw innocent people in Guantanamo. Osama bin laden wasn't half as dangerous as those two are.

    They're mutant terrorists who spout about mutant supremacy and have large bodycounts committed to serve that purpose. Every time they do something like this it sets mutant relations back years. You don't think peoe would connect their actions to them being mutants? It's not exactly a secret.

    Now those two are legitimate faces of the Krakoan government.
    Ok, i now firmly believe that this is a joke account deliberately trolling, no one can be that ridiculous.

  7. #232
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Did you experience 9/11? That terrorist attack killed thousands and gift wrapped an event to George W Bush for his administration to marginalise Muslims and throw innocent people in Guantanamo. Osama bin laden wasn't half as dangerous as those two are.

    They're mutant terrorists who spout about mutant supremacy and have large bodycounts committed to serve that purpose. Every time they do something like this it sets mutant relations back years. You don't think peoe would connect their actions to them being mutants? It's not exactly a secret.

    Now those two are legitimate faces of the Krakoan government.
    Who have not touched so much as a single hair on a single innocent human head since they became those legitimate faces of said government.

    Those of us actually discussing what is actually in the books are aware of that, and don't really doubt that people are connecting the above reality to them being mutants.

    Never mind the whole "Drugs That Are Revolutionizing How Human Quality Of Life..." thing.

    Lots of humans are probably connecting them to that action as well.

  8. #233
    Astonishing Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Did you experience 9/11? That terrorist attack killed thousands and gift wrapped an event to George W Bush for his administration to marginalise Muslims and throw innocent people in Guantanamo. Osama bin laden wasn't half as dangerous as those two are.

    They're mutant terrorists who spout about mutant supremacy and have large bodycounts committed to serve that purpose. Every time they do something like this it sets mutant relations back years. You don't think peoe would connect their actions to them being mutants? It's not exactly a secret.

    Now those two are legitimate faces of the Krakoan government.
    Boy, wait til you find out how many deaths American presidents are responsible for.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Already been addressed in jane foster book. Death was dying because of it and she took mutants off her list and was healed up by the end of the issue. So if death has already moved on and the clock is still ticking then it's cool. I suspect when time catches up mutants won't even need to resurrect anymore because death has taken them off the list. Now wake up kitty.
    I read the issue, there's no mention about Death removing Mutants "from her list". Even Gods like Thor or Zeus are in Death's list, and they resurrect. Besides, this only proves my point.

    Mutants are violating Life and Death's rules with the Resurrection's protocols, the same can happen with the Green Door of the Hulks. If this continues, we could end up in a world without Death, and although that may sound good for anyone missing someone, it can actually turn into a living nightmare: a Cancerverse! As horrible as Death can be, a Cancerverse in a INFINITELY WORSE OPTION. Mutants have to be stopped before they cause a major damage with this. And not only Mutants, but also the forces behind the Green Door, and even "cloning scientist" like the Jackal. (You know, by the Inheritors and "Dead No More").

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    Boy, wait til you find out how many deaths American presidents are responsible for.
    That's not much of a response. Sure America has been responsible for numerous heinous acts, but your argument doesn't condemn either for doing it. Those responsible for this acts impacted negatively how America was seen by the world. For most of his existence Magneto, and the various other individuals, didn't represent nation states they were terrorist groups like Al Queada. Acs like 9/11 didn't improve relations with Muslims in America it did the opposite, and this affected other countries. It gave racists more ammunition for propaganda by using a real event to exploit their agenda off.

    Magneto's actions are entrenched in politics, it's not like w're discussing the Rhino robbing a bank here.

    Do you think what Magneto and Apocalypse did with those acts was right?

    Edit: You didn't answer my question about 9/11, either.

  11. #236
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That's not much of a response. Sure America has been responsible for numerous heinous acts, but your argument doesn't condemn either for doing it. Those responsible for this acts impacted negatively how America was seen by the world. For most of his existence Magneto, and the various other individuals, didn't represent nation states they were terrorist groups like Al Queada. Acs like 9/11 didn't improve relations with Muslims in America it did the opposite, and this affected other countries. It gave racists more ammunition for propaganda by using a real event to exploit their agenda off.

    Magneto's actions are entrenched in politics, it's not like w're discussing the Rhino robbing a bank here.

    Do you think what Magneto and Apocalypse did with those acts was right?


    Edit: You didn't answer my question about 9/11, either.
    Non-issue which has about as much to do with the current run as the nonsensical "9/11" attempted tangent.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    I read the issue, there's no mention about Death removing Mutants "from her list". Even Gods like Thor or Zeus are in Death's list, and they resurrect. Besides, this only proves my point.

    Mutants are violating Life and Death's rules with the Resurrection's protocols, the same can happen with the Green Door of the Hulks. If this continues, we could end up in a world without Death, and although that may sound good for anyone missing someone, it can actually turn into a living nightmare: a Cancerverse! As horrible as Death can be, a Cancerverse in a INFINITELY WORSE OPTION. Mutants have to be stopped before they cause a major damage with this. And not only Mutants, but also the forces behind the Green Door, and even "cloning scientist" like the Jackal. (You know, by the Inheritors and "Dead No More").
    your right and your wrong. This is what death actually says.

    20.jpg

    So it was resolved. If the MU goes to the cancerverse it won't be because of mutants because that was already resolved. Thank goodness the MU humans are there to pick up the slack with death. So if it does happen it will be because of homo novissima. Humans better get it together.

    And the humans keeping her fresh.

    22.jpg
    last page of said issue.
    Last edited by jwatson; 08-11-2020 at 09:19 PM.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  13. #238
    Astonishing Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That's not much of a response. Sure America has been responsible for numerous heinous acts, but your argument doesn't condemn either for doing it. Those responsible for this acts impacted negatively how America was seen by the world. For most of his existence Magneto, and the various other individuals, didn't represent nation states they were terrorist groups like Al Queada. Acs like 9/11 didn't improve relations with Muslims in America it did the opposite, and this affected other countries. It gave racists more ammunition for propaganda by using a real event to exploit their agenda off.

    Magneto's actions are entrenched in politics, it's not like w're discussing the Rhino robbing a bank here.

    Do you think what Magneto and Apocalypse did with those acts was right?

    Edit: You didn't answer my question about 9/11, either.
    Your argument presupposes that the mutants are interested in respectability politics anymore. This isn’t a fight for hearts and minds, it’s a fight for survival.

    And of course I was around for 9/11, what difference does that make? America has done worse.

  14. #239
    BANNED misty101's Avatar
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    Literally nobody is touching this 9/11 analogy because it's completely warped and ridiculous.

  15. #240
    Mighty Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Exactly could you imagine if the situation was different and people were like i will never trust a white person because of hitler, jeffrey dahmer, Donald Trump (^_^). it's absurd.
    Haha, they might have a point. Mengele, Attilla the Hun, Torquemada, Cecil Rhodes, Harold Shipman, Chad Kroeger... I could go on. The saying is that a few bad apples spoils the bunch.

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