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  1. #256
    Amazing Member braddocks's Avatar
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    Nearly every team in the MU have welcomed former villains.
    There are protocols in place to ensure those on Krakoa obey the laws. Xavier made Apocalypse swear to do so.
    And if they do wrong, then off to the Pit. It’s not like Krakoa is inviting them and saying ‘definitely go do some murder!’

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by braddocks View Post
    Nearly every team in the MU have welcomed former villains.
    There are protocols in place to ensure those on Krakoa obey the laws. Xavier made Apocalypse swear to do so.
    And if they do wrong, then off to the Pit. It’s not like Krakoa is inviting them and saying ‘definitely go do some murder!’
    True, except what Krakoa's doing isn't the same.
    Apocalypse raved those protocols were pathetic, they didn't stop him harming people and he wasn't even given a slap on the wrist for what he's done to Excalibur. The lying, the manipulating, the physical abuse is all tolerated and Excalibur are his minions now. Krakoa's laws are very thin, and their justice system is a joke. Way back when Xavier would have ripped Apocalypse lungs out for daring to harm Rogue.
    Apocalypse wasn't sent to the pit, and neither was Emma Frost for mentally controlling someone against their will. Instead they were encouraged by it. They can do anything short of murder, though - including trying to bend the universe to their whims and taking over countries. Going to be exciting seeing how the Quiet Council reacts to what Beast did in X-force, fifty fifty Xavier just asks Beast where his loyalties lie than let's him go about his business.

  3. #258
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    ^ none of what you said broke any law.

    And lmao at the mind control thing again. Half the X-Men should be in the Pit if that's the standard. But God forbid we ask someone who committed multiversal Genocide to stand before a jury!

    And again, no context, always on brand.

  4. #259
    Amazing Member braddocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Way back when Xavier would have ripped Apocalypse lungs out for daring to harm Rogue.
    Rogue wasn’t harmed though. She says herself she was fine. Her powers were fixed, even.
    Excalibur are willing to work with Apocalypse.

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    So it was resolved. If the MU goes to the cancerverse it won't be because of mutants because that was already resolved. Thank goodness the MU humans are there to pick up the slack with death. So if it does happen it will be because of homo novissima. Humans better get it together.
    it wasn't solved at all, it was only "given some time". If people keeps resurrecting like this, Death could once again get "ill" and die, making the universe potentially becoming a cancerverse. So, Mutants are a big problem yet with their Resurrection Protocols and have to be stopped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Magneto was persecuted before he was even a mutant… as his family was persecuted…
    He should feel empathy for everyone that is persecuted for whatever reason and not just for being a mutant.
    Claremont’s Magneto was less a bastard in that aspect.
    Magneto was always a Mutant, but his powers didn't manifest until puberty. And as much as I feel sorry for Magneto as a survival of the Holocaust, his Mutant's powers made him become what he hated: a fascist. He believes Mutants are "Superior Race" and must be rulers, that sounds a lot like Hitler's phylosophy. I mean, "Homo Superior", can they be more arrogant?

    Someone mentioned here that no one deserved to be crushed by a giant robots designed to kill it. Well, and does anyone deserve to be killed by a superpowered freak just because he sees you as a "weak species"? Because that's what Magneto and many of his followers have done through the years, kill innocent humans because they are humanity's superiors.

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    ^ none of what you said broke any law.
    Morality isn't equal to the law. Slavery was legal, didn't make it right. But you're right, there are no laws of note in Krakoa including endangering colleagues in schemes by super-villains - the days of Xavier caring about his former foes hurting his students is over.

    And lmao at the mind control thing again. Half the X-Men should be in the Pit if that's the standard. But God forbid we ask someone who committed multiversal Genocide to stand before a jury!
    Context. It's not like Emma was in battle when it happened. Straw man. Please, had Apocalypse done that he'd get a standing ovation lol

    And again, no context, always on brand.
    Projection.

  7. #262
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Morality isn't equal to the law. Slavery was legal, didn't make it right. But you're right, there are no laws of note in Krakoa including endangering colleagues in schemes by super-villains - the days of Xavier caring about his former foes hurting his students is over.

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    True, except what Krakoa's doing isn't the same.
    Apocalypse raved those protocols were pathetic, they didn't stop him harming people and he wasn't even given a slap on the wrist for what he's done to Excalibur. The lying, the manipulating, the physical abuse is all tolerated and Excalibur are his minions now. Krakoa's laws are very thin, and their justice system is a joke. Way back when Xavier would have ripped Apocalypse lungs out for daring to harm Rogue.

    ...
    It's not like someone else brought up "Laws..."

    This whole "Throw The Pasta Up Against The Wall, And See If Any Of It Will Stick..." bit is why no one takes much of this very seriously.

  8. #263
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Morality isn't equal to the law. Slavery was legal, didn't make it right. But you're right, there are no laws of note in Krakoa including endangering colleagues in schemes by super-villains - the days of Xavier caring about his former foes hurting his students is over.
    You brought up the laws.



    Context. It's not like Emma was in battle when it happened. Straw man. Please, had Apocalypse done that he'd get a standing ovation lol
    Lmao at straw man. You need to stop hiding behind straw man accusations, that's lazy debating, isn't it. You're still here canonizing Scarlet Witch everyday but you cannot get past the fact that Emma helped Krakoa and mutants with that little tp push.

    It's not true that the X-Men only used tp in combat situations.

    Projection.
    You're the one who didn't even bother to read Dark Reign or Secret Empire or bring their whole context into a convo. And you completely missed who the Russian Ambassador was, whom she was allied to and what Russia is doing to mutants. Without the TP push and the UN recognizing Krakoa, the X-Men wouldn't have had the power to help mutants and humans all over the world. Why do you think Russia was voting against Krakoa? Have you seen what they're doing to mutants?

    You're here defending the real villains to keep this black and white morality thing going.
    Last edited by Veitha; 08-17-2020 at 12:38 AM.

  9. #264
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by braddocks View Post
    Nearly every team in the MU have welcomed former villains.
    There are protocols in place to ensure those on Krakoa obey the laws. Xavier made Apocalypse swear to do so.
    And if they do wrong, then off to the Pit. It’s not like Krakoa is inviting them and saying ‘definitely go do some murder!’
    And by "every team" public offender #1 is the Avengers. Yeesh...

  10. #265
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    it wasn't solved at all, it was only "given some time". If people keeps resurrecting like this, Death could once again get "ill" and die, making the universe potentially becoming a cancerverse. So, Mutants are a big problem yet with their Resurrection Protocols and have to be stopped.



    Magneto was always a Mutant, but his powers didn't manifest until puberty. And as much as I feel sorry for Magneto as a survival of the Holocaust, his Mutant's powers made him become what he hated: a fascist. He believes Mutants are "Superior Race" and must be rulers, that sounds a lot like Hitler's phylosophy. I mean, "Homo Superior", can they be more arrogant?

    Someone mentioned here that no one deserved to be crushed by a giant robots designed to kill it. Well, and does anyone deserve to be killed by a superpowered freak just because he sees you as a "weak species"? Because that's what Magneto and many of his followers have done through the years, kill innocent humans because they are humanity's superiors.
    If Magneto had always been the mutant supremacist you describe, I would agree with you: this one is not sympathetic at all…

    But Claremont had allowed him to evolve and be a better man: he had had human lovers and even a human grand-daughter during a while: he couldn’t give them his “Me big mutant” discourse. At the point that, in Excalibur #3, he looked like an sobered, mild-mannered man who no longer saw the world divided in victims and executioners…

    Alas, this Magneto is not interesting for the modern writers: not crazy, not ambiguous enough…

  11. #266
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Alas, this Magneto is not interesting for the modern writers: not crazy, not ambiguous enough…
    uhhh when has Magneto been "crazy' lately???
    GrindrStone(D)

  12. #267
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    uhhh when has Magneto been "crazy' lately???
    All right. I meant “not crazy enough“. All is relative.

  13. #268
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    If Magneto had always been the mutant supremacist you describe, I would agree with you: this one is not sympathetic at allÂ…

    But Claremont had allowed him to evolve and be a better man: he had had human lovers and even a human grand-daughter during a while: he couldnÂ’t give them his “Me big mutant” discourse. At the point that, in Excalibur #3, he looked like an sobered, mild-mannered man who no longer saw the world divided in victims and executionersÂ…

    Alas, this Magneto is not interesting for the modern writers: not crazy, not ambiguous enough…
    From what I have seen this has three reasons:

    1.- Magneto is quite popular as an anti-hero but thanks to the movies, the ultimate universe and even Claremont´s most popular story " X-Men (2nd series)" he´s popular and more well known as a villain. This means that his characterization tends to go from a extreme version of villain Claremont´s Magneto like Fatal Attractions to a more quiet and grey but not quite heroic Magneto like Cullen Bunn´s or Hickman.



    By logic alone Magneto already had a long and interesting journey back into sanity and humanity during Claremont´s run and should have a characterization according to this development but if writers followed this logic that would mean writting magneto as a more heroic or at least grey figure, Mike Carey wrote an interesting version of this during his X-men and X-men Legacy run, which of course clashes with the preconceived notions of the character as a villain, a bloodthirsty antagonist too set in his ways or an anti-human.



    2.- Another reason I can see is that while grey and anti-hero Claremont´s Magneto was quite liked and well received, his ideas about making him an elder and political figure for the mutant community and teacher of the New Mutants were not so well accepted, Magneto became way too passive for a medium like the comics in which everything has to be a long adventure or thriller, teacher magneto was just not interesting enough for the medium.




    3.- Editorial intervention often makes sure the character stays inside the parameters already travelled that are well known and popular with the fans so sometimes pushes the reset bottom when the character has gone too into the heroic or villain in a point of no return espectrum.

    This used to frustrate me at lot as a fan but I have come to understand that this kind of thing often happens in comics, not only with Magneto but with a lot other characters who get regressed to a point editiorial thinks works better for the characters and their use in the MU despite having been developed in a different and maybe better way by past writers.

    I think Mike Carey had the right idea how to balance Magneto that was still attractive to comics was coherent with his story,Hickman was totally right when he said he was criminally underrated as a X-men writer , I wish he had been given the Uncanny X-men title when he worked for the X-office.

    Now if some rumors about the MCU Magneto are true and he will play a more grey role on the movies, it will be interesting to see if this has an effect if any on the comics.
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 08-17-2020 at 01:56 PM.
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

  14. #269
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucyinthesky View Post
    By logic alone Magneto already had a long and interesting journey back into sanity and humanity during Claremont´s run and should have a characterization according to this development but if writers followed this logic that would mean writting magneto as a more heroic or at least grey figure, Mike Carey wrote an interesting version of this during his X-men and X-men Legacy run, which of course clashes with the preconceived notions of the character as a villain, a bloodthirsty antagonist too set in his ways or an anti-human.
    I appreciated Carey’s work on Magneto and X-men legacy, too…

  15. #270
    Mighty Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Me too I would love for him to come back and write a Moira or a Magneto solo book
    "The time for subtlety is passing. Now is the time for change." [New Mutants (Vol. 1) #38]

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