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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    You brought up the laws.
    There’s more to it than that. The “law,” if we can even call it that because it’s barely a constitution or justice system, only applies to people is arbitrary. Sabretooth technically didn’t break the law since he did that crimes before those laws were in place and this ignores how his actions weren’t by himself. The fact Apocalypse was legally allowed to do what he did shows how paper thin the law is in Krakoa and Xavier’s reaction just went further in normalising it. It’s not like he reconvened the Quiet Council to make new laws to make sure Apocalypse can’t do it again without punishment. Rogue may as well have been a toy from Apocalypse toy collection which he broke while playing it by how Xavier reacted to her predicament. That’s how little he cares about his former students’ safety around one of his greatest enemies these days. Apocalypse was going to do something like that because it’s in nature, and Xavier failed both in not protecting his students legally he allowed that to be the status quo with no hesitation. No wonder Apocalypse loves Krakaoa, he’s allowed to do whatever he wants like in the old days before the X-men ruined his plans. Xavier himself loved what Emma did, so of course he’s not going to do anything about it.


    Lmao at straw man. You need to stop hiding behind straw man accusations, that's lazy debating, isn't it. You're still here canonizing Scarlet Witch everyday but you cannot get past the fact that Emma helped Krakoa and mutants with that little tp push.
    I will when it stops happening, and we’re right back to it within the same paragraph – with a dash of gaslighting.

    Everything comes off as great when the focus is on why something is done, rather than the action itself. How did you feel about Purple Man using his powers like this?



    It's not true that the X-Men only used tp in combat situations.
    Is this going somewhere?

    You're the one who didn't even bother to read Dark Reign or Secret Empire or bring their whole context into a convo. And you completely missed who the Russian Ambassador was, whom she was allied to and what Russia is doing to mutants. Without the TP push and the UN recognizing Krakoa, the X-Men wouldn't have had the power to help mutants and humans all over the world. Why do you think Russia was voting against Krakoa? Have you seen what they're doing to mutants?
    Their context absolves nothing I said. Who didn’t see Osborn betraying mutants for his own twisted schemes because he’s an unhinged super-villain? Emma Frost and the Dark X-men is who. I never thought she’d be so out of touch with who Osborn was to fall for something like that so easily, but here we are. Maybe next time she’ll make a deal with Mephisto.

    Completely ignored what I said to continue a conversation we never had because that argument fails against what I’m actually saying. We’re not allowed to focus on what methods Krakao uses to get its agenda accomplished, too many awkward questions.

    If Xavier’s agenda was so politically weak at that stage he shouldn’t have announced Krakao so soon until he had his alliances settled so he knew the outcome was in his favour before risking it all on Emma brainwashing a vote at the last second. Unless he was waiting for her to act, it’s not something out of character for him to think she’d do. It’s not like Jean Grey did this. That’s why Xavier’s leadership decisions are so bizarre. Part of leadership is making sure all bases are covered, and this Xavier’s choices are constantly tainted with acts like this.

    What Marvel Russia is doing to mutants is wrong, that didn’t make every underhanded move against them ok. Krakoa’s supposed to be the good guys here, not just another bad guy.

    You're here defending the real villains to keep this black and white morality thing going.
    I’m not doing anything of the sort, I just have standards.

  2. #272
    Amazing Member Rakurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post

    Their context absolves nothing I said. Who didn’t see Osborn betraying mutants for his own twisted schemes because he’s an unhinged super-villain? Emma Frost and the Dark X-men is who. I never thought she’d be so out of touch with who Osborn was to fall for something like that so easily, but here we are. Maybe next time she’ll make a deal with Mephisto.

    Actually the comics itself shows us that Emma was a double agent, she was spying on Osborn with Namor, so she (and the X-Men) would know what was going on there. So yeah, you really think it didn't matter?

  3. #273
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakurai View Post
    Actually the comics itself shows us that Emma was a double agent, she was spying on Osborn with Namor, so she (and the X-Men) would know what was going on there. So yeah, you really think it didn't matter?
    Thanks.

    That's what I meant by context.

    And are you straw man-ing me with that Purple Man thing, Steel Inquisitor? Amazing.

    Is this all trolling? I don't get it.
    Last edited by Veitha; 08-18-2020 at 07:04 AM.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Thanks.

    That's what I meant by context.

    And are you straw man-ing me with that Purple Man thing, Steel Inquisitor? Amazing.

    Is this all trolling? I don't get it.
    Except that was never bought up as context in our conversations, despite many opportunities to say so. Context has to mean something, saying "context" with nothing behind it is not doing anything. What Emma did yet someone else had too, once again, fill in the gaps.

    The rest of my post isn't commented on so I'm going to assume you agree with it.

    Intriguing, when a non-mutant does something Emma did it's no longer acceptable. Why is that? Can't even say what Purple Man did was bad.

  5. #275
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Their context absolves nothing I said. Who didn’t see Osborn betraying mutants for his own twisted schemes because he’s an unhinged super-villain? Emma Frost and the Dark X-men is who. I never thought she’d be so out of touch with who Osborn was to fall for something like that so easily, but here we are. Maybe next time she’ll make a deal with Mephisto.

    Completely ignored what I said to continue a conversation we never had because that argument fails against what I’m actually saying. We’re not allowed to focus on what methods Krakao uses to get its agenda accomplished, too many awkward questions.

    What Marvel Russia is doing to mutants is wrong, that didn’t make every underhanded move against them ok. Krakoa’s supposed to be the good guys here, not just another bad guy.

    I’m not doing anything of the sort, I just have standards.
    1. You "Completely Ignored" the fact that your Dark X-Men argument was totally (Hilariously) wrong, as Emma Frost and Namor were never working for Osborn, or made a "deal" with him. They were "acting" as part of an established plan to locate and free the mutants Osborn had taken captive and force him to leave the mutants alone.

    2. Of course you're free to discuss their methods, however you have to prove what they did was wrong and you haven't yet. This is where context matters, it effects the morality of their actions. You simply stating that what they are doing is wrong isn't sufficient, its an unproven point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Except that was never bought up as context in our conversations, despite many opportunities to say so. Context has to mean something, saying "context" with nothing behind it is not doing anything. What Emma did yet someone else had too, once again, fill in the gaps.

    The rest of my post isn't commented on so I'm going to assume you agree with it.

    Intriguing, when a non-mutant does something Emma did it's no longer acceptable. Why is that? Can't even say what Purple Man did was bad.

    con·text
    the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.

    Context for Emma: A telepath who can read and control minds using her powers to forcible make the representative of a racist hostile power, not approve, but abstain from the vote to establish a safe haven for mutants in the face of genocidal levels of racial oppression. Thus creating a platform for mutants to compete with human nations on a leveled playing field. (Krakoa expressly agreed to operate under the same rules as other UN nations.) Action taken expressly for the purpose of saving lives.

    Context for the Purple Man: A horny, self-obsessed, narcissistic sociopath who can issue commands (but not actually read minds) who's bored. Action taken expressly for the purpose of satisfying personal desires.

    So looking at the context of your examples... What Purple Man did was bad, What Emma did was not bad. There, that was easy, your arguments are really lacking because you are trying to morally equate Emma Frost nudging a hostile (and as later events would prove, villainous) power with a rapist.

    The problem with your arguments are that they are simplistic to the point of absurdity. Context matters, its not just a question of "what" thing was done, "who" it was done to matters, "where" and "when" it was done matters, and "why" it was done is even more important. Frost's actions with the Russian Ambassador are morally grey at worst. Trying to compare her actions to Purple Man is the most absurd type of equivocation. It is, not just a straw man argument, it's a really bad straw man argument.
    Last edited by Kisinith; 08-20-2020 at 12:28 AM.

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