Jeph Loeb controversy over racism on Daredevil storyline

[CliffHanger2]

I dismiss it because I never feel people who claim cultural appropriation are sincere about it.

In this forum a few years ago had a couple of people accusing Marvel of this when they did the hip hop variant covers. Meanwhile hip hop fans and the artists being homaged loved them. That shutdown that talk real quick. There rarely a genuine appreciation of the culture outside of it so covers were great.

Drake gets accused of this a lot whenever he uses Caribbean music and UK drill in his songs even though he grew up in a multi cultural area of Toronto and actually took the time to understand the nuances of those musical styles and reach out to artists in those fields. They approve of his use of them in his music so what is everyone else problem?

Yea, it's every easy to dismiss when the some of the people acting like cultural gatekeepers know their ass from their elbow from the culture being appropriated.

Just because you don't "feel those people are sincere" doesn't mean it's not a thing. Just totatlly dismissing it is what people who practice it do.

[The_Lurk]

You completely dont even get it. I did not claim racism anywhere in my post. Thats something you just did

... yeah... right...

[Immortal Weapon]

Just because you don't "feel those people are sincere" doesn't mean it's not a thing. Just totatlly dismissing it is what people who practice it do.

My issue isn't that it's not a thing but there doesn't seem to be a line to what is appropriation. Just a term someone wants to throw out when they feel a person shouldn't be using another people's culture. I'll feel better about it if it wasn't abused to cry wolf.

[Surf]

Beyonce can use African cultures to make tons of money in a way African people largely cannot, and that ends up offending most people. Especially if you then consider the dynamic between African Americans and Africans (which I wouldn't get into to not derail the thread).

I'm not here caping for Jigga's wife at all, (not my hive as it goes) but I also don't want it to be misconstrued that, I feel, her 'use' as it was (again project unseen) in large part is a positive depiction. That Black is King trailer is SOOPER black. I'm old enough to remember a time in the late 1970s (even though I was a little one) where in most Black folks households that imagery was very common. Her wealth also can reconnect her in a way the majority of African American's can not. Maybe it's 6 in one hand half a dozen in the other but the root of much of the racism we're aware about has a much larger jealousy component that is ever brought up. Unfortunately yes, there is a unique situation in regards to the way African's may or may not feel about Beyonce's overtly cultural usage. Lion King thing is sticky but that primarily cause of her giant corporate mouse like business partner.

I would add that I would hope those same people that have that major bad energy for this new work, had it for the last HBCU influenced show she put out. Fwiw she gone be rich and that's it's own issue but at least she's sharing space with faces not usually seen in a reach as large as she has.

[Synestra]

As far as Iron Fist, I pretty much agree with Blind Wedjat, and always viewed it more along the lines of the White Savior trope than cultural appropriation, at least within the context of the show. Danny's character didn't seek to learn the secrets of K'un-L'un, he was forced into it and also accepted by its people. He also shows respect and reverence for their culture. Of course, White Savior has its own negative connotations to be addressed, which clearly reflected in the show.

I dismiss it because I never feel people who claim cultural appropriation are sincere about it.

In this forum a few years ago had a couple of people accusing Marvel of this when they did the hip hop variant covers. Meanwhile hip hop fans and the artists being homaged loved them. That shutdown that talk real quick. There rarely a genuine appreciation of the culture outside of it so covers were great.

Drake gets accused of this a lot whenever he uses Caribbean music and UK drill in his songs even though he grew up in a multi cultural area of Toronto and actually took the time to understand the nuances of those musical styles and reach out to artists in those fields. They approve of his use of them in his music so what is everyone else problem?

Yea, it's every easy to dismiss when the some of the people acting like cultural gatekeepers know their ass from their elbow from the culture being appropriated.

First and foremost, I've said in the very post you quoted, that there is a case for overblown examples. But those examples do not invalidate all experiences with cultural appropriation. Second, you're dismissing it based on what "you feel" which invalidates how victims of the actual cultures feel. You aren't an authority and cultural appropriation has been discussed on an academic level. The hip hop variant covers were legitimately meant to be a homage, which implies a level of respect.

What is respectful here?


Dismissing the overall topic is disrespectful when there are legitimate cases.

My issue isn't that it's not a thing but there doesn't seem to be a line to what is appropriation. Just a term someone wants to throw out when they feel a person shouldn't be using another people's culture. I'll feel better about it if it wasn't abused to cry wolf.

But you also just said that you dismiss it... The line may not be clear for you, but that isn't grounds to dismiss it in its entirety.

Keep in mind with that analogy, the boy who cried wolf was telling the truth one of those times. And the topic is more complex than just "crying wolf."

[Havok83]

I compeletly agree with Synestra who eloquently explained the issue

[Blind Wedjat]

I'm not here caping for Jigga's wife at all, (not my hive as it goes) but I also don't want it to be misconstrued that, I feel, her 'use' as it was (again project unseen) in large part is a positive depiction. That Black is King trailer is SOOPER black. I'm old enough to remember a time in the late 1970s (even though I was a little one) where in most Black folks households that imagery was very common. Her wealth also can reconnect her in a way the majority of African American's can not. Maybe it's 6 in one hand half a dozen in the other but the root of much of the racism we're aware about has a much larger jealousy component that is ever brought up. Unfortunately yes, there is a unique situation in regards to the way African's may or may not feel about Beyonce's overtly cultural usage. Lion King thing is sticky but that primarily cause of her giant corporate mouse like business partner.

I would add that I would hope those same people that have that major bad energy for this new work, had it for the last HBCU influenced show she put out. Fwiw she gone be rich and that's it's own issue but at least she's sharing space with faces not usually seen in a reach as large as she has.

I mean I'm not disagreeing with you either and I'm excited for the film, and think it looks cool as hell. I'm just pointing out how people can see things differently.

[Blind Wedjat]

While I don't disagree with your general assessment above, that's more racism than any cultural appropriation, though. We have not just the 'Mighty Whitey' but the whole 'Foreign cultures are magic!' thing goin' on.

Unless I missed something, Iron Fist isn't based on any myth, and his cultural appropriation is within the story itself, not the story itself. Perhaps its splitting hairs, but the racist subtext of the story and how poorly it was thought out is the issue with Iron Fist, not cultural appropriation. Most of the details regarding his origin are Western, really.

And minor nitpick, but I'd say that Finn was screwed by the writing, not the other way around

I'm not saying Iron Fist has a problem with culture appropriation. I'm saying the poor handling of Iron Fist's Mighty Whitey trope and racial stereotyping is what makes Jeph Loeb's antics look even more like culture appropriation. That was my point.

[Surf]

I mean I'm not disagreeing with you either and I'm excited for the film, and think it looks cool as hell. I'm just pointing out how people can see things differently.

Nah for sho. Can and do see it differently I see now. We will see.

[Immortal Weapon]

As far as Iron Fist, I pretty much agree with Blind Wedjat, and always viewed it more along the lines of the White Savior trope than cultural appropriation, at least within the context of the show. Danny's character didn't seek to learn the secrets of K'un-L'un, he was forced into it and also accepted by its people. He also shows respect and reverence for their culture. Of course, White Savior has its own negative connotations to be addressed, which clearly reflected in the show.
First and foremost, I've said in the very post you quoted, that there is a case for overblown examples. But those examples do not invalidate all experiences with cultural appropriation. Second, you're dismissing it based on what "you feel" which invalidates how victims of the actual cultures feel. You aren't an authority and cultural appropriation has been discussed on an academic level. The hip hop variant covers were legitimately meant to be a homage, which implies a level of respect.

What is respectful here?


Dismissing the overall topic is disrespectful when there are legitimate cases.
But you also just said that you dismiss it... The line may not be clear for you, but that isn't grounds to dismiss it in its entirety.

Keep in mind with that analogy, the boy who cried wolf was telling the truth one of those times. And the topic is more complex than just "crying wolf."

I never claimed to be an authority because I'm not dumb enough to do that. Just apprehensive of those claims from situations that were clearly clout chasing. I'll be open to the stuff like the Beyonce stuff that someone here mentioned but I don't see enough of those.

[Jeremi]

It's a little concerning seeing some people in this thread trying to deny and dismiss cultural appropriation, as if it isn't a topic that has been covered on an academic level. One may be able to make a case that certain examples are overblown, but to hand wave the entire topic overall is disrespectful and willfully ignorant.
There are any number of sources one can find on this subject via a Google search...

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=cultural+appro...tural+exchange

CliffHanger2's reply is also a good summation.

Madam Gao appeared in Defenders, Nobu was decapitated by Stick at the end of Daredevil season 2. And yeah, Gao was by far the most well used member of The Hand. I didn't perceive Nobu's final death as being he was Asian, just that it was the progression to the next villain (especially since Gao appeared across multiple MCU Netflix shows). But if the claims about Loeb are true, that's an abhorrent reason to kill of the character.

Remember how he killed the Ultimate universe version of Wasp in Ultimatum? When I read about all of this I started to think like has he ever written PoC in his comics in like a bigger role and I think the answer is no lol. Wasp getting cannibalized by the Blob doesn't count.

[Powerboy]

As far as Iron Fist, I pretty much agree with Blind Wedjat, and always viewed it more along the lines of the White Savior trope than cultural appropriation, at least within the context of the show. Danny's character didn't seek to learn the secrets of K'un-L'un, he was forced into it and also accepted by its people. He also shows respect and reverence for their culture. Of course, White Savior has its own negative connotations to be addressed, which clearly reflected in the show.
First and foremost, I've said in the very post you quoted, that there is a case for overblown examples. But those examples do not invalidate all experiences with cultural appropriation. Second, you're dismissing it based on what "you feel" which invalidates how victims of the actual cultures feel. You aren't an authority and cultural appropriation has been discussed on an academic level. The hip hop variant covers were legitimately meant to be a homage, which implies a level of respect.

What is respectful here?


Dismissing the overall topic is disrespectful when there are legitimate cases.
But you also just said that you dismiss it... The line may not be clear for you, but that isn't grounds to dismiss it in its entirety.

Keep in mind with that analogy, the boy who cried wolf was telling the truth one of those times. And the topic is more complex than just "crying wolf."

This pretty much sums it up. "Cultural Appropriation" covers a vast amount of examples from what some would consider trivial to what some would consider very important and covers a range of motives from making fun of to homage.

[Vakanai]

So what's the verdict on Loeb? Racist or just not anti-racist?

[WebLurker]

No clue.

10char

[Mr.Majestic]

As far as Iron Fist is concerned, Iron Fist is a white guy. If we've gotten to the point in society where casting a white guy with a white guy is controversial, then I give up. Given today's triggered social media climate, if Marvel DID make Iron Fist Asian, I'm sure there would have been a whole contingent of people who were insulted that Marvel's first Asian-led series featured a character who was a marital arts expert because that would be stereotypical.

Look making Iron Fist Asian/Eurasian would've solved a lot of problems but the best option was always not making another show about another White Savior.

I shudder to think what he wore when he promoted "Luke Cage"...

He wouldn't have dared.

Does this mean I can't wear a karate uniform ever if I'm not full asian?

No. It means you can't wear a gi on a lark. When you wear your gi in Karate class you're actually showing respect. You can wear a kimono if you're getting married to some Japanese dude not just for shits and giggles at some drunken party.

Tell me, what's difference between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange?

Respect mostly. If I wear a yarmulke to my friend's son's wedding at the synagogue that's respect. If I'm goofing off wearing fake payot and a kippah at some Halloween bash not okay.

Because nothing like that happens in the movies so if he got such a small detail wrong what else did he get wrong?

I believe Shinkoda was expressing that Loeb didn't remember the Blade movies properly.

Oh yeah, he obviously hates Japanese culture so much he writes (subjectively) cool comics about it...

So it's okay to yellowface? What he did wasn't any better than what Scarlett Johansson and et al did. Took a gig from an Asian creator because I guess White writers were under-represented in the Comics industry.

I'm not here caping for Jigga's wife at all, (not my hive as it goes) but I also don't want it to be misconstrued that, I feel, her 'use' as it was (again project unseen) in large part is a positive depiction. That Black is King trailer is SOOPER black.

No disrespect but I've never cared for Jay-Z, never liked his flow, but that goes double for Queen Bey. You guys remember a while back when that wax museum got crap because people said their Beyonce statue was too light-skinned? Maybe it's because I'm in my forties now but I remember her from back in the day when she was in Destiny's Child. Missy has gotten lighter skinned over the years.