Jeph Loeb controversy over racism on Daredevil storyline

[The Cool Thatguy]

It didn't need to be the Crazy 88 (or the dozens and dozens of them even though they're not actually 88 members). It could've been the Crazy Not-Nearly-As-Many. But more to the point, there was only one "good" Asian in the first movie, Hattori Hanzo, and that was about it. For the most part, the complaint is that Asian people existed in Part 1 for the sole purpose of being killed off. Then there's the implication that most of Japan as we saw it were wannabe samurai gangsters, while the optics of a single white person killing Asians left and right is pretty rooted in colonial history (only tangentially related, but Eddie Izzard has a hilarious but really on-point routine about why American movies tend to portray evil villains with British accents -- that, too, is rooted in colonial history and the deep ingrained desire to show the British our superiority.).

If a foreign country filmed a crime story in America and showed dozens of nameless, generic Americans as violent criminals but only one side character as a good American, and there was a graphic massacre of said-Americans on screen, there'd be an uproar of anti-Americanism. Which in itself would be even odder if it turned out the protagonist of the story learned almost every deadly skill they knew from Americans.

By contrast, consider a film like Beverly Hills Cop. Fish out of water, culturally different Axel Foley goes to Beverly Hills and ends up fighting or killing a lot of white people, almost exclusively. But the movie is also still rich in showing (yes, sometimes in jest) all sorts of people in Beverly Hills, from friends to fellow cops, from the rich to blue collar, even if they're mere extras or side characters, and obviously the vast majority of them are *not* bad guys. A number of them aside from Taggart, Billy, and Bogomil even end up helping Axel. So the film is never ever interpreted as anti-white. The most we get in Kill Bill is folks running away before the big fight, and that's it. Indeed, the folks running away are vastly outnumbered by the Crazy 88 (again, even though that's just a name and not an accurate count).

So, what, the Bride should have killed 30 bad guys, instead of 50?

Complaining about 'only one good Asian', seems to be an odd argument as there was barely only one good character in the movies themselves. The Bride had no sidekick, morality pet, no police detective looking the other way on her behalf. That 'One Good Asian' was 50% of the 'Good Cast', 1/3 of the good characters counting the young daughter.

Slaughtering bad guys left and right is a hero thing. I don't recall any complains about Anti-German sentiment when John threw Hans out of a building, after killing all his men.

[j9ac9k]

Hans actually had a pretty diverse crew...

[The Cool Thatguy]

Hans actually had a pretty diverse crew...

He had two guys not from his unit. The rest were Ze Germans

[Synestra]

It's a little concerning seeing some people in this thread trying to deny and dismiss cultural appropriation, as if it isn't a topic that has been covered on an academic level. One may be able to make a case that certain examples are overblown, but to hand wave the entire topic overall is disrespectful and willfully ignorant.

Tell me, what's difference between cultural appropriation and cultural exchange?

There are any number of sources one can find on this subject via a Google search...

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=cultural+appro...tural+exchange

CliffHanger2's reply is also a good summation.

Didn't both characters appear in The Defenders? I know Gao did, she was one of the coldest characters in the Netflix Marvel shows.

Madam Gao appeared in Defenders, Nobu was decapitated by Stick at the end of Daredevil season 2. And yeah, Gao was by far the most well used member of The Hand. I didn't perceive Nobu's final death as being he was Asian, just that it was the progression to the next villain (especially since Gao appeared across multiple MCU Netflix shows). But if the claims about Loeb are true, that's an abhorrent reason to kill of the character.

[The_Lurk]

Oh no worries. Just to clarify, I was not implying that all white men think the same but a person that is not a part of a racial minority group is not going see certain issues the same because they inherently dont have the same experiences. Thats fine and at that point the most you can do is acknowledge that but be open minded. Its racially insensitive to diminish or dismiss the feelings of another group bc you dont deem the offense as being serious. Its easy to say coming from a place of privilege when you arent the group who's culture is being used as a joke or to make someone look like a fool for a bit. It hits worse for said group especially if they struggle for recognition and respect. My assumption about his race comes from the fact that a minority would understand this because this is our experience. For someone to not get that, I can only assume its bc its not your experience, which I could be wrong about (and would gladly acknowledge), but I dont feel like I was in this case



Marvel's EIC, a white man, pretended to be Asian under a pseudonym, in order to write a several Japanese themed Marvel books. You can read about it here: https://io9.gizmodo.com/marvels-new-...sed-1820809573

As for Loeb, I dont think there is a video available but from what I read about writeups from people in the room, it was part of some weird bit that made people uncomfortable

Oh yeah, he obviously hates Japanese culture so much he writes (subjectively) cool comics about it...

Has the world really run out of real racism to fight against or is "lets pick easy targets day"?

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's a little concerning seeing some people in this thread trying to deny and dismiss cultural appropriation, as if it isn't a topic that has been covered on an academic level. One may be able to make a case that certain examples are overblown, but to hand wave the entire topic overall is disrespectful and willfully ignorant.
There are any number of sources one can find on this subject via a Google search...

I neither deny or dismiss it, I simply don't think it applies in every situation of a white protagonist going abroad.

If we were discussing say, Dances with Wolves, then hell yeah. Native Americans have been pushed to the brink of extinction, and their culture crapped all over. Cultures unable to resist the weight of the majority, I see the threat of cultural appropriation, and why we need to careful in how they are presented. Same with Roma and Jewish communities.

With say, Kill Bill, well...Japan is a thriving country, with tens of millions of people and a long history that reaches back at least hundreds of years, if not thousands(I'm too lazy to look it up but I know its a lot). I'm hard pressed to see the impact of tasteless movies. That's not to say that movies like 'Last Samurai' can't be racist, but I don't see any danger of cultural appropriation

[Hypestyle]

we'll see what happens, when Shang Chi comes out, whether portrayals get any more sophisticated than Mr. Shinkoda's critique. Was he invited to be part of that film?

[Havok83]

Oh yeah, he obviously hates Japanese culture so much he writes (subjectively) cool comics about it...

Has the world really run out of real racism to fight against or is "lets pick easy targets day"?

You completely dont even get it. I did not claim racism anywhere in my post. Thats something you just did

[Immortal Weapon]

There is no exchange and if there is it's uneven.-Thats appropriation or more accurately, cultural theft. Taking someone's culture and acting you're the king of it and trying to write them out of history.

How is Loeb doing anything you described by looking like a dork?

[CliffHanger2]

How is Loeb doing anything you described by looking like a dork?

I didn't say he was. I was just answering your question. Some of his comments sound crazy tho.

[Synestra]

I neither deny or dismiss it

Then that part of my post wasn't directed towards you (I never had you or the Kill Bill example in mind when I posted, and I even state some examples could be overblown).

I simply don't think it applies in every situation of a white protagonist going abroad. If we were discussing say, Dances with Wolves, then hell yeah. Native Americans have been pushed to the brink of extinction, and their culture crapped all over. Cultures unable to resist the weight of the majority, I see the threat of cultural appropriation, and why we need to careful in how they are presented. Same with Roma and Jewish communities.

With say, Kill Bill, well...Japan is a thriving country, with tens of millions of people and a long history that reaches back at least hundreds of years, if not thousands(I'm too lazy to look it up but I know its a lot). I'm hard pressed to see the impact of tasteless movies. That's not to say that movies like 'Last Samurai' can't be racist, but I don't see any danger of cultural appropriation

A white protagonist going abroad isn't appropriation, that is an oversimplification and the argument usually runs deeper than that.

With Kill Bill, I don't personally see it as an issue given the context of the story (I can see how some could see it as offensive, and the movie even seems to acknowledge it given O-Ren's comment "Silly Caucasian girl likes to play with samurai swords").

But a "threat" doesn't have to be present for appropriation to be negative, as respecting other cultures is a major factor. Even if Japan is a thriving country that may not suffer any significant damages, that doesn't make it any less insensitive to dress up as a Geisha for Halloween.

[Immortal Weapon]

It's a little concerning seeing some people in this thread trying to deny and dismiss cultural appropriation, as if it isn't a topic that has been covered on an academic level. One may be able to make a case that certain examples are overblown, but to hand wave the entire topic overall is disrespectful and willfully ignorant.
There are any number of sources one can find on this subject via a Google search...

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=cultural+appro...tural+exchange

CliffHanger2's reply is also a good summation.

Madam Gao appeared in Defenders, Nobu was decapitated by Stick at the end of Daredevil season 2. And yeah, Gao was by far the most well used member of The Hand. I didn't perceive Nobu's final death as being he was Asian, just that it was the progression to the next villain (especially since Gao appeared across multiple MCU Netflix shows). But if the claims about Loeb are true, that's an abhorrent reason to kill of the character.

I dismiss it because I never feel people who claim cultural appropriation are sincere about it.

In this forum a few years ago had a couple of people accusing Marvel of this when they did the hip hop variant covers. Meanwhile hip hop fans and the artists being homaged loved them. That shutdown that talk real quick. There rarely a genuine appreciation of the culture outside of it so covers were great.

Drake gets accused of this a lot whenever he uses Caribbean music and UK drill in his songs even though he grew up in a multi cultural area of Toronto and actually took the time to understand the nuances of those musical styles and reach out to artists in those fields. They approve of his use of them in his music so what is everyone else problem?

Yea, it's every easy to dismiss when the some of the people acting like cultural gatekeepers know their ass from their elbow from the culture being appropriated.

[Blind Wedjat]

It's important to note that Peter Shinkoda is repeating what was told to him by writers of the show, who got their instructions from Loeb. He's not directly quoting or paraphrasing Loeb himself. Of course I'm not dismissing what he's saying. Just wanted to make that clarification.

I neither deny or dismiss it, I simply don't think it applies in every situation of a white protagonist going abroad.

If we were discussing say, Dances with Wolves, then hell yeah. Native Americans have been pushed to the brink of extinction, and their culture crapped all over. Cultures unable to resist the weight of the majority, I see the threat of cultural appropriation, and why we need to careful in how they are presented. Same with Roma and Jewish communities.

With say, Kill Bill, well...Japan is a thriving country, with tens of millions of people and a long history that reaches back at least hundreds of years, if not thousands(I'm too lazy to look it up but I know its a lot). I'm hard pressed to see the impact of tasteless movies. That's not to say that movies like 'Last Samurai' can't be racist, but I don't see any danger of cultural appropriation

This is gonna be long, and I apologise.

The thing about Iron Fist is that the character heavily emphasises the 'Mighty Whitey' trope which inherently states that white people are the best at everything, even in the arts and cultures of non-white people. Danny Rand, a complete outsider bests all of K'un-L'un's hopefuls and earns the Iron Fist. He beats people who were born for this entire purpose and come from generations of warriors. It is absurd, and the only reason why he wins is because he's a white protagonist. And the only reason why Danny is white is because he was conceptualised as an audience insert character for a demographic that largely consists of white boys and men. As much as I do like the character, this much is undeniable. Keep in mind that Danny Rand is frequently stated to be the best martial artist in the Marvel Universe, and his styles mainly consists of Asian styles.

The reason why almost no one complains about this trope is that it's just so normalised. Several books, comics, films and TV shows are have elements of this. There almost isn't any martial arts film from the 80s and 90s that didn't have this trope. It's something everyone has grown up seeing, and it's become internalised. The Karate Kid film is an example of this too, and even aside from Iron Fist there are several white male comic book characters that are masters of Asian martial arts such as Batman, Daredevil and Ninjak.

I think the problem the Iron Fist TV show had was that the just wasn't any attempt at trying to at least discuss the character's problematic history. To Doctor Strange's credit (a character that also has elements of the trope as well), the film did try to correct it in some ways by changing the Ancient One's race (which backfired because it was whitewashing -- and there is a bit in the film where Strange initially thought a stereotypically looking Old Wise Asian Master sorcerer was the Ancient One), by changing Mordo's race, by changing Wong's designation from being a man-servant to a very talented sorcerer in his own right, and by showing that all manner of people can learn the ways of the Mystic Arts. It wasn't perfect, but at least there was an attempt and I think that's why the film escaped most of the controversy.

By contrast, Iron Fist never even bothers, thinking that it would go away if it just pretended like it wasn't there. I don't think Finn Jones deserved the hate he got (he was simply showing up for a role that he fit) and the accusations of whitewashing were poorly worded, but it was problematic. Making Danny Rand Asian or part Asian would have solved a lot of problems. It immediately gets rid of the Mighty Whitey trope and can at least handle the culture appropriation aspects better (no matter what anyone says, martial arts are a part of many Asian cultures like any other nation really). Plus, it actually adds diversity to the then Defenders team which was mostly white people with the exception of Luke Cage. And it's not as if Marvel had never done any racebending before, so that wouldn't have been a big deal either. Some people try to defend keeping the character white (mind you, for just an adaptation) by saying it is racist to suggest that Asians should only be reserved for martial arts roles, but almost no one has complained about Shang-Chi and Simu Liu (except for weird nationalist Chinese online trolls that somehow think he's unattractive).

Now I think if they were gonna keep Danny white, they should have at least been prepared to have had a discussion about the problematic normalised depiction of white people stealing from non-white people. Or at least in some way, talked about Danny's privilege as a white man. But the show never has that depth or reaches that conversation, and that's why it became such a problem. Danny's characterisation doesn't help, since we know he did end up winning against Davos, took the Iron Fist, only to desert K'un-L'un when they needed him the most to avenge his parents. That's what's revealed in Season 2, but throughout both seasons he repeatedly says he never asked to be the Iron Fist, and treats it like a burden, which contradicts him choosing to win the competition instead. Then you have Davos, someone who knows how to use the Iron Fist properly, wants to be the Iron Fist and protect K'un-L'un, and is a K'un-L'un native, is instead treated as an angry and crazy villain without the sympathy characters like Vulture and Killmonger got with less screen-time. It also doesn't help that the show itself was mostly poorly written, with mediocre acting and terrible fight choreography that made Finn Jones look like an amateur.

I think that's why Jeph Loeb showing up to a comic con in a Karate gi and headband is so offensive. It's just all the insensitivity in the handling of the Iron Fist debacle exemplified in that one act of him being a white man showing up in an attire that's culturally relevant to many Asian people. It's almost like him trying to excuse adhering to a racist archetype by saying "Hey look! I'm not racist! I love Karate!" when that's just a surface level attempt at deflection, instead of discussing and addressing the real problem. It's also why these racist comments (not to say Loeb himself is racist) aren't exactly surprising. Hollywood for as long as we know has been very comfortable using the arts and cultures of Asian people in films and putting white faces in them, only to completely disregard Asian people.

[Blind Wedjat]

I dismiss it because I never feel people who claim cultural appropriation are sincere about it.

In this forum a few years ago had a couple of people accusing Marvel of this when they did the hip hop variant covers. Meanwhile hip hop fans and the artists being homaged loved them. That shutdown that talk real quick. There rarely a genuine appreciation of the culture outside of it so covers were great.

Drake gets accused of this a lot whenever he uses Caribbean music and UK drill in his songs even though he grew up in a multi cultural area of Toronto and actually took the time to understand the nuances of those musical styles and reach out to artists in those fields. They approve of his use of them in his music so what is everyone else problem?

Yea, it's every easy to dismiss when the some of the people acting like cultural gatekeepers know their ass from their elbow from the culture being appropriated.

I think culture appropriation does get thrown around a lot and it is true that most times the people whose culture is apparently being appropriated aren't always as mad about it, and therefore the term is starting to lose its meaning. But simply taking that and acting like culture appropriation doesn't exist, or there aren't any major and legitimate gripes about it, or things can't be a case-by-case basis, or there isn't a power dynamic at play is problematic as well.

Sure, most people approve of Drake doing what he does, but what about Beyoncé? Her curated Lion King soundtrack album which came out last year and contains popular West African and Southern African music, and her Black is King film which contains of a lot of aesthetics from different African cultures are both being heavily criticised for culture appropriation by people of the African disapora (and the latter hasn't even been released yet). It's a long complicated topic and I see both sides of the argument as a person with Nigerian parents, but the reason for the critique is a power dynamic. Beyoncé as an American woman (and a very rich and powerful one at that) has more economic power over many African people. Economic power means influence, and the dynamic between America and Africa isn't equal because one is more powerful than they other, and one can influence the other more than the other way around. Beyoncé can use African cultures to make tons of money in a way African people largely cannot, and that ends up offending most people. Especially if you then consider the dynamic between African Americans and Africans (which I wouldn't get into to not derail the thread).

My point is, culture appropriation is a case-by-case basis, and it's better to look at certain demographic more as individuals rather than a collective. Sure, Drake may get approval for his use of multi-cultural music. But that doesn't mean everyone in that demographic agrees with what he does. And while I think him having a multi-cultural background does matter, how he hops from one to the other and how little he actually contributes to those demographics (in some ways, he takes away from them) deserves to be criticised to.

[The Cool Thatguy]

It's important to note that Peter Shinkoda is repeating what was told to him by writers of the show, who got their instructions from Loeb. He's not directly quoting or paraphrasing Loeb himself. Of course I'm not dismissing what he's saying. Just wanted to make that clarification.



This is gonna be long, and I apologise.

The thing about Iron Fist is that the character heavily emphasises the 'Mighty Whitey' trope which inherently states that white people are the best at everything, even in the arts and cultures of non-white people. Danny Rand, a complete outsider bests all of K'un-L'un's hopefuls and earns the Iron Fist. He beats people who were born for this entire purpose and come from generations of warriors. It is absurd, and the only reason why he wins is because he's a white protagonist. And the only reason why Danny is white is because he was conceptualised as an audience insert character for a demographic that largely consists of white boys and men. As much as I do like the character, this much is undeniable. Keep in mind that Danny Rand is frequently stated to be the best martial artist in the Marvel Universe, and his styles mainly consists of Asian styles.

The reason why almost no one complains about this trope is that it's just so normalised. Several books, comics, films and TV shows are have elements of this. There almost isn't any martial arts film from the 80s and 90s that didn't have this trope. It's something everyone has grown up seeing, and it's become internalised. The Karate Kid film is an example of this too, and even aside from Iron Fist there are several white male comic book characters that are masters of Asian martial arts such as Batman, Daredevil and Ninjak.

I think the problem the Iron Fist TV show had was that the just wasn't any attempt at trying to at least discuss the character's problematic history. To Doctor Strange's credit (a character that also has elements of the trope as well), the film did try to correct it in some ways by changing the Ancient One's race (which backfired because it was whitewashing -- and there is a bit in the film where Strange initially thought a stereotypically looking Old Wise Asian Master sorcerer was the Ancient One), by changing Mordo's race, by changing Wong's designation from being a man-servant to a very talented sorcerer in his own right, and by showing that all manner of people can learn the ways of the Mystic Arts. It wasn't perfect, but at least there was an attempt and I think that's why the film escaped most of the controversy.

By contrast, Iron Fist never even bothers, thinking that it would go away if it just pretended like it wasn't there. I don't think Finn Jones deserved the hate he got (he was simply showing up for a role that he fit) and the accusations of whitewashing were poorly worded, but it was problematic. Making Danny Rand Asian or part Asian would have solved a lot of problems. It immediately gets rid of the Mighty Whitey trope and can at least handle the culture appropriation aspects better (no matter what anyone says, martial arts are a part of many Asian cultures like any other nation really). Plus, it actually adds diversity to the then Defenders team which was mostly white people with the exception of Luke Cage. And it's not as if Marvel had never done any racebending before, so that wouldn't have been a big deal either. Some people try to defend keeping the character white (mind you, for just an adaptation) by saying it is racist to suggest that Asians should only be reserved for martial arts roles, but almost no one has complained about Shang-Chi and Simu Liu (except for weird nationalist Chinese online trolls that somehow think he's unattractive).

Now I think if they were gonna keep Danny white, they should have at least been prepared to have had a discussion about the problematic normalised depiction of white people stealing from non-white people. Or at least in some way, talked about Danny's privilege as a white man. But the show never has that depth or reaches that conversation, and that's why it became such a problem. Danny's characterisation doesn't help, since we know he did end up winning against Davos, took the Iron Fist, only to desert K'un-L'un when they needed him the most to avenge his parents. That's what's revealed in Season 2, but throughout both seasons he repeatedly says he never asked to be the Iron Fist, and treats it like a burden, which contradicts him choosing to win the competition instead. Then you have Davos, someone who knows how to use the Iron Fist properly, wants to be the Iron Fist and protect K'un-L'un, and is a K'un-L'un native, is instead treated as an angry and crazy villain without the sympathy characters like Vulture and Killmonger got with less screen-time. It also doesn't help that the show itself was mostly poorly written, with mediocre acting and terrible fight choreography that made Finn Jones look like an amateur.

I think that's why Jeph Loeb showing up to a comic con in a Karate gi and headband is so offensive. It's just all the insensitivity in the handling of the Iron Fist debacle exemplified in that one act of him being a white man showing up in an attire that's culturally relevant to many Asian people. It's almost like him trying to excuse adhering to a racist archetype by saying "Hey look! I'm not racist! I love Karate!" when that's just a surface level attempt at deflection, instead of discussing and addressing the real problem. It's also why these racist comments (not to say Loeb himself is racist) aren't exactly surprising. Hollywood for as long as we know has been very comfortable using the arts and cultures of Asian people in films and putting white faces in them, only to completely disregard Asian people.

While I don't disagree with your general assessment above, that's more racism than any cultural appropriation, though. We have not just the 'Mighty Whitey' but the whole 'Foreign cultures are magic!' thing goin' on.

Unless I missed something, Iron Fist isn't based on any myth, and his cultural appropriation is within the story itself, not the story itself. Perhaps its splitting hairs, but the racist subtext of the story and how poorly it was thought out is the issue with Iron Fist, not cultural appropriation. Most of the details regarding his origin are Western, really.

And minor nitpick, but I'd say that Finn was screwed by the writing, not the other way around