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  1. #46
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GŁicho View Post
    So my question was to the images where Batman is illustrated somewhat doing the same? Despite not hiving "precognition and radar senses"



    The illustrations given of bullet-timing have been fantastic (well except that manga one).
    Batman should not be conveyed that way.
    Do we have a clear illustrative distinction between
    "bullet dodge", and "aim dodging"? Or whatever Batman is suposedly doing?
    A couple of really clear examples I can think of relate firstly to Cass Cain and secondly to Shang Chi. In both, you clearly see that they do not see the shooter, but see the bullet itself when itís comparatively close to them and still react to it.

    Also, as previously referenced, when Daredevil reacts to move his billy-club or Elektra moves her sai in order to directly intercept bullets; rather than Batmanís Ďhold your arm in front of your face and just block whatever comes towards you because villains are stupid enough to only shoot at one locationĎ; thatís bullet-timing.

    Additionally, even if youíve got radar senses like Daredevil, the fact that you can see bullets from behind you doesnít mean youíre not reacting to them in real-time. Heís not aim-dodging. Heís perceiving bullets in flight (albeit bullets coming from directions all around him, which others without his senses couldnít see) and dodging them.

    Finally, Iíd posit (and Iíve no idea whether others agree on this) that itís very difficult (read as Ďimpossibleí) to aim-dodge automatic gunfire, unless the shooter is only firing in one location. You can block it as a mass of fire, sure; with Capís shield, Batmanís arm *cough*, or whatever; but to specifically either intercept or dodge bullets from automatic weapons means youíre not aim-dodging. Because you might be able to aim-dodge the first shot, but while youíre dodging that one, the second, third and fourth are coming at you, so unless youíre able to react to bullets in real time, youíre getting ventilated eventually.

  2. #47
    BANNED The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Finally, I’d posit (and I’ve no idea whether others agree on this) that it’s very difficult (read as ‘impossible’) to aim-dodge automatic gunfire, unless the shooter is only firing in one location. You can block it as a mass of fire, sure; with Cap’s shield, Batman’s arm *cough*, or whatever; but to specifically either intercept or dodge bullets from automatic weapons means you’re not aim-dodging. Because you might be able to aim-dodge the first shot, but while you’re dodging that one, the second, third and fourth are coming at you, so unless you’re able to react to bullets in real time, you’re getting ventilated eventually.
    Are you saying there is basically no difference between Batman and a bullet timer anyway? Because he has a lot of stuff like that , even lesser street heroes do

  3. #48
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Not really. I do draw a distinction between CBPHers, bullet-timers, etc.

    I’m just saying if you apply sufficient logical analysis to it, the system breaks down with automatic gunfire, unless the bad guys are dumb as a petrified turd.

    Because really, you can’t KEEP aim-dodging that shit.

    But this is what happens when you try and apply logic to comics physics.

    Down that road lies madness. And an abandoned gas station.

  4. #49
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    Personally I dont think we should abandon real world logic quite so much. I think we can say Batman is ridiculously fast without necessarily being able to smile at bullets like Cassandra Cain, who is faster

    But I dont agree with the notion of her being able to "blitz" Batman quite like some people believe.i think it will be a long hard fight like Batgirl 50, ending with Batgirl winning, sure but not like some sort of Flash vs Hulk match

    Precisely because of stuff like "aim-dodging" to a point of silliness. If Batman is slower than a bullet timer, he is not that much slower

  5. #50
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    And apparently stuff like this??
    https://m.imgur.com/a/2WQfm

  6. #51
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    More to the point of automatic fire

    https://m.imgur.com/a/duBsP

  7. #52
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Batman (and Cap, and people of their level) successfully avoid gunfire much of the time by making themselves difficult targets. Bruce uses shadow, his cape, his body armor and his waaaaaaay better than normal human speed and athleticism to make it almost impossible to effectively target him by people slower then he is. He has hundreds of feats of this over the years. But he's never really been portrayed as "faster than the incoming bullet" even if he has a feat or three of that over the years. He never mentally claims that he's faster than a bullet.

    Contrast this to Iron Fist - who, while poisoned, trivially catches a bullet fired from a vastly supersonic projectile from 40 or so feet away, through a plate glass window behind him, reacting after the bullet comes through the glass. He then runs outside and dances through the incoming automatic weapon fire and crosses the distance to OSKO those enemies in the time it takes for them to fire only a handful of rounds - remembering that fully automatic weapons like those have fire rates of 500-1000 rounds per minute.

    Daredevil, who detects a round from a sniper rifle when it's perhaps 10 feet behind him and manages to get his head out of the way of it. Daredevil, who, on multiple instances in multiple levels of health has uses his clubs to casually bat away multiple bullets aimed at him from superhuman shooters or multiple shooters at a time, and who sends those bullets back at their shooters with non-lethal-but-crippling accuracy.

    The feat from Shang Chi, above in this very thread.

    Cass Cain, dancing her way out of inbound bullets with a smile on her face.

    Those are all well out of Bruce's "high-end, consistent" paygrade.
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  8. #53
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    make it almost impossible to effectively target him by people slower then he is.
    That's the thing though. Much of the time, "people" aren't targetting him. Here for instance, even a normal person shooting him with 5000 rounds/min would nail Batman at some point at that range unless he managed to suddenly gain Ray Palmer's powers. Bruce is also trying busy trying to save the chopper rather than give his full attention to the shooter

    https://m.imgur.com/a/duBsP

    While it is useful to help identify someone somewhat faster , arguing that there is like a massive difference between what Batman does and what Daredevil does is pushing the point of even comic book logic towards absurdity

    He never mentally claims that he's faster than a bullet.
    https://m.imgur.com/a/2WQfm
    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 08-02-2020 at 03:48 AM.

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    That's the thing though. Much of the time, "people" aren't targetting him. Here for instance, even a normal person shooting him with 5000 rounds/min would nail Batman at some point at that range unless he managed to suddenly gain Ray Palmer's powers. Bruce is also trying busy trying to save the chopper rather than give his full attention to the shooter

    https://m.imgur.com/a/duBsP

    While it is useful to help identify someone somewhat faster , arguing that there is like a massive difference between what Batman does and what Daredevil does is pushing the point of even comic book logic towards absurdity



    https://m.imgur.com/a/2WQfm
    That scan sounds like Batman is saying he can see the bullets in flight, but isn't fast enough to react to them after they've travelled a certain distance. Hence why he notes he can't knock them out of the air, despite this slowed down sensation.

    Someone fast enough to casually knock the bullets out of the air would be faster to the point Bruce would maybe just see a flash/flicker before the strike he has no way of reacting to hits. Like his mind see's the stimuli, but his neurotransmitters can't fire off fast enough to react. That's way BT blitzs non BT
    Last edited by Marvel-Studios Rep; 08-02-2020 at 04:43 AM.

  10. #55
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    Except he then proceeds to dodge those bullets anyway.

    https://i.postimg.cc/R0QW0hHS/image.jpg

    He may not be quite fast enough to knock them out of the air and certainly say Cassandra is faster in that sense but the guy literally talks about seeing bullets in slow motion while dodging them. To say he wouldn't even see a bullet timer punching him is pushing it I think.

    To say nothing of the physical impossibility of dodging automatic fire (many times from multiple sources)

    Are bullet timers faster than him? Definitely. Just I disagree about the degree to which this is overplayed here. And not just for Batman but any peak human

  11. #56
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    Obligatory Captain America quote

    https://m.imgur.com/SktzNMF

  12. #57
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    Regarding automatic fire - automatic weapons don't fire a 'cloud' of bullets, or anything of the sort. They fire at a measured rate, one bullet after the other, in the direction the muzzle is pointed. If Batman has gotten off the line of the barrel for the first shot (aim-dodging), and the shooter can't keep up with his movements, ALL of the bullets will be off-line.

    Even if a gun is horking out 5000 rounds per minute, if Bruce isn't in in the line of fire - even off by a foot - those 5000 rounds are going to miss (at longer ranges one could get into a discussion about dispersion of the bullets, etc, due to a variety of factors, but at closer ranges, especially from a weapon that's on a fixed mount?).

    It would be more difficult to deal with multiple shooters firing from different angles with semi-automatic weapons than a single guy with an automatic rifle, for Batman.

    The monologuing scene where Bruce is talking about bullets 'sucking sound out of the air', there's a whole lot of Bruce waxing poetic in that scene and saying 'it's like you are deaf and everything is in slow motion' and 'I almost feel I could pick these bullets right out of the air, but that's just another part of the slow sensation'. (Emphasis mine)

    And he's talking about 'exposure to gunfire' and not 'I'm so fast'.

    I myself am somewhat iffy on that scan showing anything other than Bruce being very poetic. He doesn't actually DO any bullet-timing, either. But mileage, etc.

    Regarding Spider-man and Daredevil; Peter is explicitly noted as being super-fast, he has plenty of insane speed-feats outside of bullet-timing, so when he DOES bullet-time it's not questioned. The other stuff that's not explicitly bullet-timing? Sure, he could be aim-dodging in those scenes (Edit: as The Drunken Kid has noted, missed that). Certainly he moves so quickly and erratically that he could be dodging the aim of the shooters, especially with his spider-sense telling him where to move. But the point is that his bullet-time feats and other speed-feats certainly demonstrate him as capable of speed on that level.

    Matt, the same. We seen him parry bullets on many, many occasions, so many that it's a norm for him (and have the classic 'bullet-fired directly at him, shown on panel with shooter AND Matt with Matt not moving as the shot is fired, and he dodges afterward in another panel' or 'bullet shown reflecting in his glasses before he moves'). Whether or not he's aim-dodging in other times where he's illustrated dodging is immaterial; his bullet-time feats, which have been judged as NOT outliers, are sufficient to give him that speed.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 08-04-2020 at 05:05 AM.
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  13. #58
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Regarding automatic fire - automatic weapons don't fire a 'cloud' of bullets, or anything of the sort. They fire at a measured rate, one bullet after the other, in the direction the muzzle is pointed. If Batman has gotten off the line of the barrel for the first shot (aim-dodging), and the shooter can't keep up with his movements, ALL of the bullets will be off-line.

    Even if a gun is horking out 5000 rounds per minute, if Bruce isn't in in the line of fire - even off by a foot - those 5000 rounds are going to miss (at longer ranges one could get into a discussion about dispersion of the bullets, etc, due to a variety of factors, but at closer ranges, especially from a weapon that's on a fixed mount?).
    This was the thing I was going to comment on.

    Even high capacity machine guns don't fire at such speeds that you have more than one bullet in flight very often unless it's over quite a significantl range.

    Let me numbers a bit real quick... so like what? ... 5000 rounds per minute. 83 bullets a second. One bullet every 0.012 seconds. Batman is like 5(?) metres away. Muzzle velocity for a heavy machine gun is like 900 metres/second. First bullet would reach Batman in 0.0055 seconds so... yeah, only one bullet in the air at a time.

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  14. #59
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    This was the thing I was going to comment on.

    Even high capacity machine guns don't fire at such speeds that you have more than one bullet in flight very often unless it's over quite a significantl range.

    Let me numbers a bit real quick... so like what? ... 5000 rounds per minute. 83 bullets a second. One bullet every 0.012 seconds. Batman is like 5(?) metres away. Muzzle velocity for a heavy machine gun is like 900 metres/second. First bullet would reach Batman in 0.0055 seconds so... yeah, only one bullet in the air at a time.
    That's one of the calcs I do a lot for bullet-timers who parry stuff. People go on about how it's so much more impressive when a bullet-timer parries automatic fire. It's not, not really; it's just a precision and stamina thing, not a speed thing. With most automatic weapons, there's more time BETWEEN shots than there is between 'bullet fired, bullet arrives and is parried'. Comparatively speaking, considerably more. Means the parrying person - if they're capable of reacting in the shorter gap in time - actually gets a 'break' between rounds.

    I mean...it's impressive as hell, but I feel parrying multiple incoming shots from different shooters is far more interesting.

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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

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  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    This was the thing I was going to comment on.

    Even high capacity machine guns don't fire at such speeds that you have more than one bullet in flight very often unless it's over quite a significantl range.

    Let me numbers a bit real quick... so like what? ... 5000 rounds per minute. 83 bullets a second. One bullet every 0.012 seconds. Batman is like 5(?) metres away. Muzzle velocity for a heavy machine gun is like 900 metres/second. First bullet would reach Batman in 0.0055 seconds so... yeah, only one bullet in the air at a time.

    I've been doing a lot of calcs lately. Perhaps an effect of quarantine?
    So...if someone could move "just under the speed of sound" they could dodge most bullet's fired from a reasonable range? Or would reaction speed differ compared to how fast they can move their body?

    Crossbow bolts move like a 4th as fast as bullets, I think. And Batman deals with the former with contemptuous ease. CORRECTION: I checked. Crossbow bolts are 8-9 times slower than typical bullets. Pretty big gap.
    Last edited by Marvel-Studios Rep; 08-04-2020 at 08:32 PM.

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