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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    I guess this means we'll never get Katar and Shiera Hol as independent heroes. I hate all the reincarnation garbage.

    They don't even have to call them Hawkman and Hawkgirl. Just give me Katar and Shiera from Thanagar.
    I’m with you 100%.
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  2. #17
    Fantastic Member Hol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Carter was lost in the Dark Multiverse, he had been turned into the new Dragon of Barbatos. Yes, it's insane.
    lol oh god. Is that from Metal?

  3. #18
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    I don't think it's really that much of a problem.

    Thanks to Venditti's latest continuity tweak, Hawkman and Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman are only as complicated as the story needs them to be.

    If you want to highlight that Hawkman & Hawkgirl are reincarnated lovers from ancient Egypt, you can do that without having to mention anything else.

    If you want to focus on Hawkman & Hawkwoman as space cops from planet Thanagar, you can also do that without bringing up the reincarnation stuff.

    And if you want to use all of that, plus all the various Hawk-themed heroes they've been throughout DC's history (or invent some new ones), you can also do that without having to worry about screwing up or negating any previously established stories because Hawkman & Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman have been reincarnating across time and space for billions of years.

    The Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman split makes sense for the time being, since they both have different names and backstories, but they could easily be combined if the stories call for it.

    Considering how small an audience these characters have, limiting what stories can or can't be told with them would be a particularly bad idea. The character's backstories are no longer confusing since they can be summed up in one single sentence "winged warriors who have been reincarnated countless times across time and space". That really isn't confusing.

    Again, if you don't like the reincarnation angle, it can be easily ignored in favor of focusing on their sci-fi incarnation if that's what the story requires.

    It's not like every Green Lantern story requires an explanation of the various Lantern Corps or every previous ring-bearer. All you need to know is they're space cops with rings powered by power batteries shaped like lanterns. All the other stuff is just extra material that could be used in future stories, or ignored completely.

    That said, it's abundantly clear that Hawkman isn't a big enough draw to support a solo book. DC has tried over and over again and he's always remained a B-lister, which isn't a knock as there are plenty of great B-listers who can't support a solo book.
    Last edited by Bored at 3:00AM; 07-28-2020 at 11:16 PM.

  4. #19
    Incredible Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    DC probably decided to stick with the reincarnation origin because it's more unique than the space cop origin. Personally I love both versions and would've preferred to go back to Earth 1/Earth 2 split with Thanagarian Katar and Shayera on one Earth and reincarnated Carter and Shiera/Kendra on another. But I don't particularly mind the current status quo either. It's basically "every version Is canon, don't think too much about it".

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I don't think it's really that much of a problem.
    For me, and I'd guess for some other people, problem is that this basically says that space cop Hawkman is just a "version" of the character, while I'd prefer if it was real deal that we focused on.

  6. #21
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    For me, and I'd guess for some other people, problem is that this basically says that space cop Hawkman is just a "version" of the character, while I'd prefer if it was real deal that we focused on.
    But he was always just a version of Hawkman. The Silver Age incarnation wasn't the original Hawkman, it was the Golden Age Hawkman. Since neither the Golden Age reincarnated Egyptian prince Hawkman nor the Thanagarian space cop Hawkman have ever proven popular enough to sustain solo books for very long, it made sense to combine them in the hope that there'd be enough readers to make that successful.

    Again, you don't need to focus on the reincarnation stuff if you want to ignore it, but you can't pretend that Katar Hol was somehow the real deal when he is visually identical to Carter Hall, who predates him by two decades.

    Besides, they're both rip-offs of Alex Raymond's Hawkmen from Flash Gordon anyways

    I understand that fans have favorites when it comes to all the various incarnations of long-running characters, but there's market realities that also need to come into play. For instance, there are multiple Green Lanterns that don't get much attention, which sucks, but there isn't a whole lot of evidence that a Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner, or Simon Baz solo book would sell very well these days.

    You can wish that it was 1960 again and Katar Hol was the one and only Hawkman, but that only lasted for a few years before Earth-2 reintroduced Carter Hall again, Katar's solo book got combined with Atom, then got cancelled. Or, if you'd prefer the 90's, the Truman/Ostrander version similarly struggled to maintain any kind of sizable audience before getting cancelled and getting shuffled off to comic limbo for being too radioactive to continuity.
    Last edited by Bored at 3:00AM; 07-29-2020 at 02:20 AM.

  7. #22
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I don't think it's really that much of a problem.

    Thanks to Venditti's latest continuity tweak, Hawkman and Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman are only as complicated as the story needs them to be.

    If you want to highlight that Hawkman & Hawkgirl are reincarnated lovers from ancient Egypt, you can do that without having to mention anything else.

    If you want to focus on Hawkman & Hawkwoman as space cops from planet Thanagar, you can also do that without bringing up the reincarnation stuff.

    And if you want to use all of that, plus all the various Hawk-themed heroes they've been throughout DC's history (or invent some new ones), you can also do that without having to worry about screwing up or negating any previously established stories because Hawkman & Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman have been reincarnating across time and space for billions of years.

    The Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman split makes sense for the time being, since they both have different names and backstories, but they could easily be combined if the stories call for it.

    Considering how small an audience these characters have, limiting what stories can or can't be told with them would be a particularly bad idea. The character's backstories are no longer confusing since they can be summed up in one single sentence "winged warriors who have been reincarnated countless times across time and space". That really isn't confusing.

    Again, if you don't like the reincarnation angle, it can be easily ignored in favor of focusing on their sci-fi incarnation if that's what the story requires.

    It's not like every Green Lantern story requires an explanation of the various Lantern Corps or every previous ring-bearer. All you need to know is they're space cops with rings powered by power batteries shaped like lanterns. All the other stuff is just extra material that could be used in future stories, or ignored completely.

    That said, it's abundantly clear that Hawkman isn't a big enough draw to support a solo book. DC has tried over and over again and he's always remained a B-lister, which isn't a knock as there are plenty of great B-listers who can't support a solo book.
    Totally agree with you on almost everything you said.

    I do believe that the Hawkman have the potential to become a more popular character, specially on other media. The character is visually cool, his reincartation background allows for a variety of settings and historical periods to used and also makes it possible for racebending in universe.

    A game adaptation could draw from Assassins Creed, The Witcher, Red Dead Redemption to the Arkham Games. Harley Quinn for example, was popular but only became the hit she is today after the games, imo.
    Last edited by Ra-El; 07-29-2020 at 05:30 AM.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    DC probably decided to stick with the reincarnation origin because it's more unique than the space cop origin. Personally I love both versions and would've preferred to go back to Earth 1/Earth 2 split with Thanagarian Katar and Shayera on one Earth and reincarnated Carter and Shiera/Kendra on another. But I don't particularly mind the current status quo either. It's basically "every version Is canon, don't think too much about it".
    Yeah it works considering the confusing mess that had occurred since Crisis on Infinite Earths to Zero Hour and Beyond. I think it helps that Carter as we have now basically has access to his past memories and lives so say they want to focus on a Katar story they still can because he has those memories.
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  9. #24
    Fantastic Member Alphaxman's Avatar
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    I too tire of the reincarnated mess. I will always prefer the space cop to the reincarnate Egyptian prince. There really could have been a way to have both. Just have an Thanagarian ship crash land in ancient Egypt, still have Hawkman and Hawkgirl (GA) be the reincarnated lovers. But when Hawkman and Hawkwoman (SA) arrive on Earth they looked completely different (more like their Hawkworld looks with the glider-like wings) and then took the GA Hawks as inspirations when they decided to stay and become superheroes, adopting their looks.
    If DC can have three separate Flashes, have their GA (golden age) Green Lantern be completely different than the GL Corps, have the SA Atom be completely distinctive from the GA Atom -- then the Hawks can be separated from each other. Carter can deal with magic, Egypt, and the Black Atom stuff. Katar can deal with the space stuff.
    Northwind can be Carter's legacy and Golden Eagle can be Katar Hol's.
    Kendra can be Shiera reborn and Shayera can be who she is without worrying about some past life on another planet.

  10. #25
    Fantastic Member Hol's Avatar
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    So is the current Carter Hall basically the pre Flashpoint Hawkman? The Johns character?

  11. #26
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hol View Post
    So is the current Carter Hall basically the pre Flashpoint Hawkman? The Johns character?
    Technically? Maybe. I believe he is supposed to be, but with Flashpoint and Rebirth, he is as much the same character as Superman or Wonder Woman is. Anyway, Venditti gives him a different voice than Johns did, imo, and I prefer this new version.

  12. #27
    Fantastic Member Hol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Technically? Maybe. I believe he is supposed to be, but with Flashpoint and Rebirth, he is as much the same character as Superman or Wonder Woman is. Anyway, Venditti gives him a different voice than Johns did, imo, and I prefer this new version.
    Ok cool. Thanks man! I appreciate the info.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    I don't really understand why "reincarnation" Hawkman won. To me Hawkworld was perfect set up and DC botched it completely.
    .

    Absolutely! When I read Hawkworld, I assumed it was a terrific retelling ( with a bit of revamping) of Hawkman's origin and that it too kind place in the past. I was very surprised when they started a new Hawkman series occurring right after Hawkworld, which took place in the present!
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  14. #29
    Fantastic Member Hol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Hausler View Post
    .

    Absolutely! When I read Hawkworld, I assumed it was a terrific retelling ( with a bit of revamping) of Hawkman's origin and that it too kind place in the past. I was very surprised when they started a new Hawkman series occurring right after Hawkworld, which took place in the present!
    That was a great series too. Especially the Escape from Thanagar story.

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