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  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Default Process of Elimination: Who can we be sure Kindred ain't? SPOILERS

    Ever since Nick Spencer started his run in 2018 (which isn't that long back but owing to the pandemic it feels so very long ago now), his run has centered around a mystery villain called Kindred. And there have been many threads and discussions featuring theories on who Kindred is. Rather than add to that, I realized that as we reach what seems to be a major moment in Spencer's run, i.e. the revelation of the Kindred mystery and/or Spider-Man confronting him, I thought to do something different. A listing out of characters who we can be certain isn't Kindred. A process of elimination.

    Now how can we certain a character isn't Kindred you might ask?
    -- One parameter is we see Kindred interacting with said character or otherwise in the same space as the character i.e. overlooking/staring and so on. If we see Kindred and [INSERT CHARACTER NAME] separately in the same time and space, we can be sure we are dealing with two different characters.
    -- If we see Kindred summoning the spirit of a dead character (as in the Sins' Rising prelude) we can be certain we are dealing with two different characters.

    So based on that we can rule out:
    -- A substantial chunk of the rogues gallery we have seen in Spencer's run: Kingpin, Mendell Stromm, Boomerang, Gog, Kraven, the Sinister Six led by Lady Beetle, Doctor Doom, Arcade, Vulture, The Gibbon, Felicia Hardy, The Thieves' Guild, Overdrive, Chance, Mysterio, Lady Electro, Norman Osborn.
    -- We can also rule out characters featured in satellite titles: Venom, Carnage, Doctor Octopus.
    -- The following members of Peter's supporting cast: J. Jonah Jameson, Norah Winters, Randy Robertson, Robbie Robertson, Aunt May, Teresa, Mary Jane Watson, Carlie Cooper (as of ASM#45, where before she was a semi-known theory).
    -- We can also rule out Miles Morales and his extended family and supporting cast owing to his status as a satellite.
    -- Assuming Kindred is someone dead, we can rule out definitively Jean DeWolff as not being Kindred (based on Sins' Rising).

    So where does this process of elimination leave us.
    -- A good chunk of the living and active cast of ASM are ruled out. The major exception is Harry Osborn who we haven't seen on page since the penultimate Slott issue. Not my favorite theory, but the fact is he hasn't been ruled out.
    -- Among the dead characters, the following aren't ruled out entirely -- George Stacy, Gwen Stacy, Ned Leeds, Flash Thompson, and that's among the prominent dead supporting characters. Technically speaking Nathaniel Lubensky hasn't been ruled out so he qualifies as still being on paper. So one can add almost any dead character to the list and claim it qualifies.

    So the pool of suspects is larger among dead characters (hmm...almost like a dead pool...RJ you are a genius) than living.

    The only character who explicitly seems to know who Kindred is, is Norman Osborn at least in one of his addled states as in the Absolute Carnage tie-ins.

    You are all free to add/subtract/correct/qualify me on this.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 07-29-2020 at 08:43 PM.

  2. #2
    Fantastic Member Grapeweasel's Avatar
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    I hope it's Steve Ditko.

  3. #3
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    I feel safe in saying that it's not Galactus, Howard the Duck, or NFL SuperPro.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Ever since Nick Spencer started his run in 2018 (which isn't that long back but owing to the pandemic it feels so very long ago now), his run has centered around a mystery villain called Kindred. And there have been many threads and discussions featuring theories on who Kindred is. Rather than add to that, I realized that as we reach what seems to be a major moment in Spencer's run, i.e. the revelation of the Kindred mystery and/or Spider-Man confronting him, I thought to do something different. A listing out of characters who we can be certain isn't Kindred. A process of elimination.

    Now how can we certain a character isn't Kindred you might ask?
    -- One parameter is we see Kindred interacting with said character or otherwise in the same space as the character i.e. overlooking/staring and so on. If we see Kindred and [INSERT CHARACTER NAME] separately in the same time and space, we can be sure we are dealing with two different characters.
    -- If we see Kindred summoning the spirit of a dead character (as in the Sins' Rising prelude) we can be certain we are dealing with two different characters.

    So based on that we can rule out:
    -- A substantial chunk of the rogues gallery we have seen in Spencer's run: Kingpin, Mendell Stromm, Boomerang, Gog, Kraven, the Sinister Six led by Lady Beetle, Doctor Doom, Arcade, Vulture, The Gibbon, Felicia Hardy, The Thieves' Guild, Overdrive, Chance, Mysterio, Lady Electro, Norman Osborn.
    -- We can also rule out characters featured in satellite titles: Venom, Carnage, Doctor Octopus.
    -- The following members of Peter's supporting cast: J. Jonah Jameson, Norah Winters, Randy Robertson, Robbie Robertson, Aunt May, Teresa, Mary Jane Watson, Carlie Cooper (as of ASM#45, where before she was a semi-known theory).
    -- We can also rule out Miles Morales and his extended family and supporting cast owing to his status as a satellite.
    -- Assuming Kindred is someone dead, we can rule out definitively Jean DeWolff as not being Kindred (based on Sins' Rising).

    So where does this process of elimination leave us.
    -- A good chunk of the living and active cast of ASM are ruled out. The major exception is Harry Osborn who we haven't seen on page since the penultimate Slott issue. Not my favorite theory, but the fact is he hasn't been ruled out.
    -- Among the dead characters, the following aren't ruled out entirely -- George Stacy, Gwen Stacy, Ned Leeds, Flash Thompson, and that's among the prominent dead supporting characters. Technically speaking Nathaniel Lubensky hasn't been ruled out so he qualifies as still being on paper. So one can add almost any dead character to the list and claim it qualifies.

    So the pool of suspects is larger among dead characters (hmm...almost like a dead pool...RJ you are a genius) than living.

    The only character who explicitly seems to know who Kindred is, is Norman Osborn at least in one of his addled states as in the Absolute Carnage tie-ins.

    You are all free to add/subtract/correct/qualify me on this.
    It is a long shot because I would not know his motive and also the calling of Parker Pete is certainly a clue, but Nicholas Lewis ( Crime Master) can be added to the list. He was in the Ditko era, familiar with Osborn, and likely ended up in Hell. He also played a role in the recent original Gwen comic ( which is interesting). I still look at in alphabetical order: Ned Leeds, Harry Osborn and Gwen Stacy as the favorites. But Lewis as Kindred would make a nice curveball to shock the readers, if Spencer decided to go in that direction.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    Hahaha, oh, the memories. I watched that meme be created live as a youngster.

    Damn, I feel old lol.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  7. #7
    Incredible Member xpyred's Avatar
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    I absolutely don't understand where the whole "Ditko era" clue came from. That's something I noticed recently on CBR posts and I may have to go back and read through 45 issues again to see what I missed.

    I don't think it's Ned Leeds considering his clone just died while warning peter about Betty Brant and I don't even think she's come up recently.

    I don't think it's Gwen because that's just beating a dead horse and I don't see shock value in yet another Gwen story.

    This mystery has gone on long enough with no real clues except a random outburst at Peter revealing to Black Cat, two issues of Absolute Carnage and the line "I don't like killing innocents". It's not enough to keep me here trying to figure it out.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Another major clue to remember: Kindred was already in hell when Mysterio died in Guardian Devil, which means if it is someone who died, it has to be someone who died before that point (easiest estimate would be sometime before the start of the 1999 Howard Mackie run). Which would obviously throw Flash out of the running (and would also just be an incredibly terrible idea anyway).

    Also, this is my personal theory, I don't think we need to look at this as just simply being one full being, I believe there is a full possibility that he may be the physical manifestation of a piece of someone's soul. It would help to explain why it could be someone like Harry, who's still alive, or (to a lesser extent) Gwen, who was brought back/doesn't really have a reason to be in hell, Kindred's actually just a piece of them taken form as a vengeful beast. And Spencer himself opened his run with a story about a soul being split in two, so could end up being verrrrry early foreshadowing.

    I also really wouldn't put it above Spencer to make him a deep cut and not some "huge major important character that will completely shape everything", because he's already shown how much he loves integrating all the obscure stuff, so wouldn't put it past him to take the most obscure thing he could think of and make it the most important plot point.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Sonic The Hedgehog, Absolute Carnage, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, Gwenpool Strikes Back, Runaways, The White Trees

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    I absolutely don't understand where the whole "Ditko era" clue came from. That's something I noticed recently on CBR posts and I may have to go back and read through 45 issues again to see what I missed.

    I don't think it's Ned Leeds considering his clone just died while warning peter about Betty Brant and I don't even think she's come up recently.

    I don't think it's Gwen because that's just beating a dead horse and I don't see shock value in yet another Gwen story.

    This mystery has gone on long enough with no real clues except a random outburst at Peter revealing to Black Cat, two issues of Absolute Carnage and the line "I don't like killing innocents". It's not enough to keep me here trying to figure it out.
    Almost every issue of Ditko is worth reading. Take Amazing 31-33 ( the Master Planner Saga and the first appearance of Gwen). My personal favorite story. He introduced readers to not only Spider-Man, but JJJ ( with a clear explanation behind him), Ock, Goblin, Lizard, Kraven, Vulture and Sandman to name a few. He also wrote one of the best Doom stories and created the foundation of MJ.

  10. #10
    Fantastic Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Another major clue to remember: Kindred was already in hell when Mysterio died in Guardian Devil, which means if it is someone who died, it has to be someone who died before that point (easiest estimate would be sometime before the start of the 1999 Howard Mackie run). Which would obviously throw Flash out of the running (and would also just be an incredibly terrible idea anyway).

    Also, this is my personal theory, I don't think we need to look at this as just simply being one full being, I believe there is a full possibility that he may be the physical manifestation of a piece of someone's soul. It would help to explain why it could be someone like Harry, who's still alive, or (to a lesser extent) Gwen, who was brought back/doesn't really have a reason to be in hell, Kindred's actually just a piece of them taken form as a vengeful beast. And Spencer himself opened his run with a story about a soul being split in two, so could end up being verrrrry early foreshadowing.

    I also really wouldn't put it above Spencer to make him a deep cut and not some "huge major important character that will completely shape everything", because he's already shown how much he loves integrating all the obscure stuff, so wouldn't put it past him to take the most obscure thing he could think of and make it the most important plot point.
    That's why I think it's Harry/pre-OMD Harry. Sure, it's the seemingly obvious choice but Kindred also says it's not who they are but why/what they're doing that's the important question. Plus all the allusions to OMD that keep popping up throughout Spencer's run so far, Harry's return was also in OMD. The retcon behind Harry surviving was revealed to include Mysterio, which would point to the Mysterio connection- and they were both dead at the same time. Harry has interacted with Kingpin before (the final ASM Stern Hobgoblin story comes to mind, not sure of anything else), and then of course is the Norman connection with him being proud of Kindred. Could be misdirection playing into the longstanding trope of Norman never appreciating Harry to make people think it's too obvious, or it could be the big giveaway on purpose. I also agree that the first story dealing with Peter literally splitting into two beings representing different aspects of him to extremes could be a big thematic setup for Kindred if he turns out to be Harry.
    Last edited by Spidey_62; 07-30-2020 at 07:33 PM.

  11. #11
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Also, this is my personal theory, I don't think we need to look at this as just simply being one full being, I believe there is a full possibility that he may be the physical manifestation of a piece of someone's soul
    That just makes me think of Demogoblin or perhaps Jason Macendale.

  12. #12
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    Sounds crazy, but I don't think we can trust an elimination process for this. I mean, who could have guessed back then that the sick Jane Foster was the new female Thor? Or that the Red Hulk was General Ross, when we saw them "together" once?

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Sounds crazy, but I don't think we can trust an elimination process for this. I mean, who could have guessed back then that the sick Jane Foster was the new female Thor? Or that the Red Hulk was General Ross, when we saw them "together" once?
    Jane Thor was heavily foreshadowed. And features prominently in Aaron’s God of Thunder series which preceded the original Thor2014 series that introduced her. Quite a few fans guessed it to be her.

    Red hulk is not a good example otoh. Not an interesting character.

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    That just makes me think of Demogoblin or perhaps Jason Macendale.
    I've got a soft spot for Macendale as a suspect, just because he is a Ditko creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Sounds crazy, but I don't think we can trust an elimination process for this. I mean, who could have guessed back then that the sick Jane Foster was the new female Thor? Or that the Red Hulk was General Ross, when we saw them "together" once?
    Fair point. There may be some aspects to the character we don't yet understand (IE- an existing character being unaware of a different personality.)
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    That just makes me think of Demogoblin or perhaps Jason Macendale.
    Macendale or as I mentioned before Crime Master are possibilities. I am certainly not Sigmund Freud and I have no idea what is in Spencer’s mind, but I am sure he knows his time writing Spider-Man will be defined by Kindred. I am sure he knows the readers do not want a predictable person like Harry ( unless of course the payoff is Norman having to kill Harry (poetic justice for Gwen), or even worse a bad story like Sins Past or OMD ( ask J. Michael Straczynski about it sometime). If people are unhappy about Gwen shacking up with Osborn can you imagine the reaction if she was Kindred? That is why I do not think it is her. I have been pushing Ned as my main suspect, but I think there is more to the Kindred story then meets the eye. Which is what is Mephisto’s motivation? I know he is pure evil, and I know about him and the Beyonder, but what about Miles? He is not Peter, why do the OMD deal with him? I think there is something else going on.

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