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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    I wouldn't call them as fast as Wally.
    Er, what about your GL scan suggests they're travelling through time via speed?

  2. #17
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    One more example. Post Crisis Mon-El travels through time via speed.

    https://postimg.cc/mzSwHSvS

    Mind you, this version of Mon El got beaten up by Byrne era Superman.
    This shows Mon'El already in "the time stream," pushing the other Legionaires who are in their time machine. I don't think his speed is really involved here.
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  3. #18
    Fantastic Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Your entire presence in this thread is to argue this is an inferior performance, so no, I don't really think you do.
    My position is that Surfer doesn't travels through time but sideways by traveling through a different dimension.

    The Surfer has on other occasions explicitly said that what he does is go ftl and thereby pierces the very veil of time itself, in those words.
    Well sure but that has been shown as travelling through a different dimension rather than Flash type time stream feat.



    And thus Byrne Superman is an FTL planet mover right?
    No.

    That's also not reaaally "post crisis" Mon El, in terms of the Legion's chronological issues.
    What? It's Legion v3 37 where Legion travels through time to meet post Crisis Superman. How's it before crisis?

    But setting that aside

    A speed time travel showing not based in what you're going on about:

    https://imgur.com/a/h65mgNh

    This is the Surfer, explicitly talking about time travel as something he does via speed, and that navigating the currents of time is something he has to do, via speed. It fits just fine
    So does it for The Ray, Mon El and Hal. None of them are as fast as Wally.

  4. #19
    Fantastic Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    This shows Mon'El already in "the time stream," pushing the other Legionaires who are in their time machine. I don't think his speed is really involved here.
    Valid point, Mon El actually takes them via speed.

    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/EoUa5noeD4...9zOewq3Q=s1600
    https://2.bp.blogspot.com/jtOX3ZK24V...gQ8nZ7-4=s1600

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Well sure but that has been shown as travelling through a different dimension rather than Flash type time stream feat.
    Not in the scan I just posted it didn't. He has explicitly referred to such as the timestream while zipping through at that.


    So does it for The Ray, Mon El and Hal. None of them are as fast as Wally.
    Frankly, 2/3 of those scans involve either the Ray hitting ftl, or looking like nothing of the kind, or things going on that you are not aware of.

    What? It's Legion v3 37 where Legion travels through time to meet post Crisis Superman. How's it before crisis?
    Because that's still the pre crisis Legion. It's a mess to explain but I guess we're gonna try

    Because in fact, the very issue you are talking about is about this problem. What they actually do is in this issue is travel back in time to the pocket universe of pocket universe Superboy, a terrible effort to try and reconcile that Superman was never Superboy at this point and that the Legion had this entire time been tricked into travelling back to a pocket universe to interact with pocket universe Superboy.

    https://imgur.com/a/8QL3ucz

    Pocket universe Superboy is Pre Crisis Superboy. Ish. He can do things like go FTL and as a result travel through time by "breaking the time barrier" for instance. Byrne Supes notes he's vastly stronger and faster than him in a later issue and that he's only keeping up due to noticing that Pocket Superboy is massively holding back and that "his heart isn't in what he's doing".
    Last edited by Pendaran; 08-01-2020 at 10:01 AM.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    How if you have access to that full issue to post these scans did you not know it's about Pocket Universe Superboy?

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Anyway thus, it looks like you're talking about Pre crisis Mon El, who was a beast in his own right, a Ray going insanely ftl which is more outlier than anything, and Green Lanterns looking like they are using their rings to travel through time, not speed, given the flares of energy they both emerge from and around said rings.

    There's a scan right for you of the Surfer zotting about the timestream on pure speed.

    So.. whatever point was being made here feels increasingly thin.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 08-01-2020 at 10:04 AM.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    While I'm there, when particularly did that specific Mon El fight Byrne Superman, instead of Pocket Universe Superboy, who was given Superboy's pre crisis stuff?

  9. #24
    BANNED The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    The earliest examples of Surfer time travelling clearly show him do so on speed alone not dimensional travel

    https://i.postimg.cc/rmzydvh5/image.jpg
    https://i.postimg.cc/C1thbmtX/image.jpg
    https://i.postimg.cc/5yCxg8W0/image.jpg
    https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/up...s%20origin.jpg

  10. #25
    Fantastic Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Not in the scan I just posted it didn't. He has explicitly referred to such as the timestream while zipping through at that.
    Sure, but that can be explained as going in from the dimensional barrier as well. Another version of Surfer and Dawn actually appeared and talked to Dawn.




    Frankly, 2/3 of those scans involve either the Ray hitting ftl, or looking like nothing of the kind, or things going on that you are not aware of.
    I really doubt that.



    Because that's still the pre crisis Legion. It's a mess to explain but I guess we're gonna try
    It really isn't. There is no pre crisis Legion per say. All of Legion stories before zero hour are actually canon. Great Darkness Saga was referenced multiple times and Booster Gold actually traveled to the daxamites invasion after Infinite Crisis.

    Because in fact, the very issue you are talking about is about this problem. What they actually do is in this issue is travel back in time to the pocket universe of pocket universe Superboy, a terrible effort to try and reconcile that Superman was never Superboy at this point and that the Legion had this entire time been tricked into travelling back to a pocket universe to interact with pocket universe Superboy.
    Pocket universe saga is retconned away. All of pre crisis stories for Legion is canon for pre Flashpoint legion.

    https://imgur.com/a/8QL3ucz

    Pocket universe Superboy is Pre Crisis Superboy. Ish. He can do things like go FTL and as a result travel through time by "breaking the time barrier" for instance. Byrne Supes notes he's vastly stronger and faster than him in a later issue and that he's only keeping up due to noticing that Pocket Superboy is massively holding back and that "his heart isn't in what he's doing".
    Pocket universe Superboy no longer exists after Infinite Crisis. Main universe Superboy replaced him. Even in Glorithverse, it was Mon-El and Andromeda who replaced Superboy and Supergirl.

  11. #26
    Fantastic Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    How if you have access to that full issue to post these scans did you not know it's about Pocket Universe Superboy?
    Ermm, what? Even after Pocket Universe Superboy was erased from existence after Mon-El killed Trapper, we see Mon-El and Andromeda trying to break time trapper's barrier showing they could travel in time physically.


  12. #27
    Fantastic Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    While I'm there, when particularly did that specific Mon El fight Byrne Superman, instead of Pocket Universe Superboy, who was given Superboy's pre crisis stuff?
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  13. #28
    Fantastic Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Anyway thus, it looks like you're talking about Pre crisis Mon El, who was a beast in his own right, a Ray going insanely ftl which is more outlier than anything, and Green Lanterns looking like they are using their rings to travel through time, not speed, given the flares of energy they both emerge from and around said rings.

    There's a scan right for you of the Surfer zotting about the timestream on pure speed.

    So.. whatever point was being made here feels increasingly thin.
    That sounds more like rationalization to show Surfer as Wally level speed than anything else.

    I'm curious as to what actual speed feats other than flying really fast on his surfboard has Surfer performed that he is Wally level in speed? Can he run that fast then?

  14. #29
    Fantastic Member Superfan90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    You can see SS v3 retconned that.

  15. #30
    Prince of Duckness Beadle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfan90 View Post
    You can see SS v3 retconned that.
    Or it didnít and they just clarified a bit of the mechanics, in the same way that DC speedsters access the Speed Force to time travel, which itself is kind of also a... yíknow... other dimension in its own rights, accessible by speed.

    But thatís like totally different, right?

    I mean how could the two speed-based time travel methods operate slightly differently? Itís almost like theyíre two companies with two separate fictional universes that each have separate laws of physics and spacial/chronal mechanics or something.

    But thatís crazy talk.

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