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  1. #46
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regnak View Post
    That is because they had great success in the past with Superman and Batman movies. WW is their first big success with a super heroine.
    Might have something to do with the fact that they didn't try with female characters after Supergirl and Catwoman.

    There was, if memory serves, a 20 year gap between SG and CW, and a 15 year gap between Catwoman and Wonder Woman and there isn't a single critic who I ever read who blamed Catwoman's crash and burn on having a female lead. It was a terribly written movie that didn't resemble the character from the previous Batman movies. Supergirl had some seriously hideous dialogue and a lame plot that fell flat. Both movies were complete garbage from start to finish, but so are a lot of male led superhero movies, yet that doesn't stop them from trying again.

    Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel will hopefully turn this around, but I wouldn't put it past movie execs to stop making female led superhero films the minute one tanks.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Btw, out of 25 DVD, Wonder Woman ranked 8th in sales. Hardly a flop, yet it was enough to put the kibosh on any female led animated films for 10 years later when we got a second WW movie.
    I'm not sure how comparable these numbers really are, since that's only home video, and there was a big shift from home video to streaming, since the first movies came out.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    To be fair, budgets aren't the be all - Green Lantern, BvS after word of mouth spread, Justice League...
    It isn't fair that they don't get equal budgets, and that needs to change, but good directors and teams find a way to make a good movie with the money they have.
    Yeah and quite often--you get what you pay for in terms of directors and budgets.

    Quite often you get newbie directors and less experienced teams working on these movies. Maybe you'll get lucky and find the next star, but statistically speaking--you won't.

  4. #49
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Might have something to do with the fact that they didn't try with female characters after Supergirl and Catwoman.

    There was, if memory serves, a 20 year gap between SG and CW, and a 15 year gap between Catwoman and Wonder Woman and there isn't a single critic who I ever read who blamed Catwoman's crash and burn on having a female lead. It was a terribly written movie that didn't resemble the character from the previous Batman movies. Supergirl had some seriously hideous dialogue and a lame plot that fell flat. Both movies were complete garbage from start to finish, but so are a lot of male led superhero movies, yet that doesn't stop them from trying again.

    Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel will hopefully turn this around, but I wouldn't put it past movie execs to stop making female led superhero films the minute one tanks.
    Would Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel had succeeded if they were not associated with a male dominant fan base. Marvel and DC.

    Everyone made a big deal about Wonder Woman. She is the first superhero woman that succeeded beyond expectations after horrible flops of Supergirl, Catwoman, Electra

    I don't think there is any female action film that has made over 200m at the box office. Some have moderate success.

    I used to be a massive Twilight hater but looking back, all women need to appreciate that franchise. it was a chick flick that was making 300 million domestic and 700 mil world wide without having a large male audience unlike Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel.

  5. #50
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    I enjoyed Elektra (there's a huuuge gap between Elektra and Catwoman) and Birds of Prey (despite HQ) a lot more than Captain Marvel (just meh in every way). Just because comic fans weren't pleased with them doesn't mean I can't enjoy them on their own.
    I enjoyed the 80s Supergirl film. It was better than Superman 3 and 4. Supergirl may have fared better if she was a dude.

  6. #51
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titanfan View Post
    Yeah and quite often--you get what you pay for in terms of directors and budgets.

    Quite often you get newbie directors and less experienced teams working on these movies. Maybe you'll get lucky and find the next star, but statistically speaking--you won't.
    There's a lot of great independent directors and actors willing to work for peanuts to catch their big break. Whoever decides who to hire there should do a good job finding the right people who have already proven to make gold on a shoestring budget.

    I agree with you it isn't fair, I just think we can't blame success and failure solely on the budget for the films. Despite a lower budget than their peers, Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel made it work.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Would Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel had succeeded if they were not associated with a male dominant fan base. Marvel and DC.

    Everyone made a big deal about Wonder Woman. She is the first superhero woman that succeeded beyond expectations after horrible flops of Supergirl, Catwoman, Electra

    I don't think there is any female action film that has made over 200m at the box office. Some have moderate success.

    I used to be a massive Twilight hater but looking back, all women need to appreciate that franchise. it was a chick flick that was making 300 million domestic and 700 mil world wide without having a large male audience unlike Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel.
    Hunger Games did over 400 mil domestic. Lucy did about the same globally.

  8. #53
    Old school comic book fan WestPhillyPunisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Would Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel had succeeded if they were not associated with a male dominant fan base. Marvel and DC.

    Everyone made a big deal about Wonder Woman. She is the first superhero woman that succeeded beyond expectations after horrible flops of Supergirl, Catwoman, Electra

    I don't think there is any female action film that has made over 200m at the box office. Some have moderate success.

    I used to be a massive Twilight hater but looking back, all women need to appreciate that franchise. it was a chick flick that was making 300 million domestic and 700 mil world wide without having a large male audience unlike Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel.
    Salt did nearly $294 million.
    Avatar: Here's to the late, great Steve Dillon. Best. Punisher. Artist. EVER!

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Point is that there is a serious over reaction when a female led film doesn't do awesome right out of the gate, but male heroes get try after try after try.
    Not really, the ones that had successfull movies they try to reboot after some time, the ones that failed usually not (or only after a really long time) unless the studio needs to do a movie to keep the rights.

    Just take Green Lantern as an example, why do you think he was not part of the DCEU Justice League movie?

  10. #55
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestPhillyPunisher View Post
    Salt did nearly $294 million.
    Salt is one of the few exceptions. Jolie back then was a huge draw. if you swap her character with a man, the box office would increase by another 200.

    Jolie is very attractive too.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliffHanger2 View Post
    Hunger Games did over 400 mil domestic. Lucy did about the same globally.
    Without Twilight there would be no Hunger Games. Hunger Games drew in a lot of men. Twilight was very chick flick.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Might have something to do with the fact that they didn't try with female characters after Supergirl and Catwoman.

    There was, if memory serves, a 20 year gap between SG and CW, and a 15 year gap between Catwoman and Wonder Woman and there isn't a single critic who I ever read who blamed Catwoman's crash and burn on having a female lead. It was a terribly written movie that didn't resemble the character from the previous Batman movies. Supergirl had some seriously hideous dialogue and a lame plot that fell flat. Both movies were complete garbage from start to finish, but so are a lot of male led superhero movies, yet that doesn't stop them from trying again.

    Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel will hopefully turn this around, but I wouldn't put it past movie execs to stop making female led superhero films the minute one tanks.

    That wasn’t because of a female lead.Until Green Lantern the only non Superman/Batman movies were related to them, CW, SG and Steel. Frankly if not for the success of the MCU it would probably still be like that.

  12. #57
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Would Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel had succeeded if they were not associated with a male dominant fan base. Marvel and DC.

    Everyone made a big deal about Wonder Woman. She is the first superhero woman that succeeded beyond expectations after horrible flops of Supergirl, Catwoman, Electra

    I don't think there is any female action film that has made over 200m at the box office. Some have moderate success.

    I used to be a massive Twilight hater but looking back, all women need to appreciate that franchise. it was a chick flick that was making 300 million domestic and 700 mil world wide without having a large male audience unlike Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel.
    Elizabeth Banks is that you?

    Why does demographic matter? Is a female led action movie success not legit unless the audience is predominantly female?

  13. #58
    Fantastic Member Castle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regnak View Post
    That wasn’t because of a female lead.Until Green Lantern the only non Superman/Batman movies were related to them, CW, SG and Steel. Frankly if not for the success of the MCU it would probably still be like that.
    Don't forget MCU dragged out not having any female lead movies. Captain Marvel and Black Widow are coming after 20 movies with male leads.

    It must have a lot to do with faith. Studios believe the movie could flop hard . For those that want to know why Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel had less budget. that's why.

    One of the neat methods they have used to get around selling female action movies is get a very high prolific director. Quentin Tarantino's Kill Bill. Uma Thurman is not the selling point. Tarantino is.

  14. #59
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Would Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel had succeeded if they were not associated with a male dominant fan base. Marvel and DC.

    Everyone made a big deal about Wonder Woman. She is the first superhero woman that succeeded beyond expectations after horrible flops of Supergirl, Catwoman, Electra

    I don't think there is any female action film that has made over 200m at the box office. Some have moderate success.

    I used to be a massive Twilight hater but looking back, all women need to appreciate that franchise. it was a chick flick that was making 300 million domestic and 700 mil world wide without having a large male audience unlike Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel.
    56% of Wonder Woman's audience was female, so it wasn't relying upon the male demo for action movies.

    Btw, your point is rather confusing - you want to know why men won't go see female led movies, but when female led movies succeed, you discount them because men like them?

    As to women led action movies that scored over 200 million ?

    Captain Marvel - $1,128,275,263
    Alice in Wonderland - $1,025,467,110
    Hunger Games Catching Fire - $865,011,746
    Wonder Woman - $821,847,012
    Maleficent - $758,410,378
    Hunger Games Mockingjay Part 1 - $755,356,711
    Hunger Games - $694,394,724
    Hunger Games Mockingjay Part 2 - $658,344,137
    Maleficent 2 - $491,730,089
    Bumblebee - $467,989,645
    Lucy - $458,863,600
    Alita Battle Angel - $404,852,543
    Mad Max Fury Road - $375,211,079
    The Golden Compass - $372,234,864
    Salt - $293,503,394
    Lara Croft: Tomb Raider - $273,703,394
    Tomb Raider - $274,470,394
    Charlie's Angels - $264,105,545
    Charlie's Angels Full Throttle - $259,175,788

    There's more, but I'm bored

    Oh, and that's leaving off the big ones:

    Frozen - $1,280,803,156
    Frozen 2 - $1,450,026,933

    Not to mention Brave, Moana, Mulan, etc.

    So...in summary:

    Your claim that 'many male movies are rubbish and don't fail' vs '99% of female movies fail' is incorrect as per the top 100 list I presented earlier.

    There have been a grand total to date of 5 female led superhero films - Supergirl, Catwoman, Elektra, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel. Hardly a huge sample size to base this on. The fact that when one fails the studios wait 10-20 years before making another one proves my point.

    Btw, Elektra broke even at the box office. It cost (before marketing) 43,000,000 and it made 57,000,000. Not a money-maker, but not technically a flop, either

    Supergirl was a weird one. It was only released in the UK and the US and I couldn't find its budget anywhere. Oddly, the big stars (Peter O'Toole and Faye Dunaway) won Raspberries, but Helen Slater won a Saturn Award.

    Oh, and Birds of Prey broke 200,000,000 on an 85,000,000 budget, so that makes 2 flops, one break even, and 3 successes for female led superhero films. I'm thinking that average will go up with Black Widow and WW84, but I'm not sure how badly Covid is going to screw up the box office.

    I'm a woman and I generally hate chick flicks. So do many of my female friends, but my husband likes them. Pigeon-holing movie-goers by gender is a bad idea. Successful movies appeal to all genders. Twilight was something like 80/20 female to male, but Avengers Endgame? Far from being the opposite was 58/42.

    In other words, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful if it weren't for the women who saw it, and please don't come back with 'but they just went to see it with their boyfriends.' Every one of my female friends who saw it wanted to see it.

    So, in summary:

    1. Female led action movies can be highly successful.
    2. Plenty of female led action movies have made more than $200,000,000
    3. Studios have traditionally refused to give female superheroes the opportunities they've given male superheroes (by a huge margin). It took WB 20 years to try a second one (and their answer to 'how to we save the female superhero film' was Catwoman? Really?) and it took Marvel 14 years to try again after Elektra broke even.
    4. Men and women like female led action movies.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Don't forget MCU dragged out not having any female lead movies. Captain Marvel and Black Widow are coming after 20 movies with male leads.

    It must have a lot to do with faith. Studios believe the movie could flop hard . For those that want to know why Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel had less budget. that's why.

    One of the neat methods they have used to get around selling female action movies is get a very high prolific director. Quentin Tarantino's Kill Bill. Uma Thurman is not the selling point. Tarantino is.
    That was because of misogyny and racism at its highest ranks via Ike Perlmutter. Had Fiege been leading the film division than we'd have gotten those movies sooner. It's also why Maya Hansen was reduced to a glorified cameo in Iron man 3 when she was supposed to be a bigger villain.

    That "faith" is compromised with outdated thinking, who refuse to learn that having female leads isn't bad simply because they're women.

    Uma Thurman's a huge selling point for Kill Bill, she's the face of the franchise not Tarantino.

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