Female action movies from a Males's perspective only

[Steel Inquisitor]

When I said ''I think'' I was talking about Stewart in Charlie's Angels. The rest was me speculating what turns men off from female action films.

There is a general conception of masculinity and femininity that plays into movies. Let's not pretend Angelina Jolie was cast as Lara Croft in the late 90s because for her acting alone. She was one of the most beautiful actresses at that time and that was a seller. She was though looking but still feminine.

That's what all women in Hollywood have to go through to sell movies, and it was less progressive than it was today.

Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder in movies unless you are Jennifer Lawrence painted Blue playing Mystique and even that character admitted she was not attractive to men. Have we ever seen a 200 pound woman playing an action role or acting as the love interest? 95% of every action girl I see in a female action or male action film is physically very attractive and feminine looking.

In-universe Beast falls in love with her, she hates that form because she can't hide that she's a mutant and absolutely no-one implies or says that she's an ugly monster in that form. Which she isn't. In DOFP she makes a joke about the Vietnamese general not finding her sexy, but we don't get his opinion - he's in shock since this is an out of context situation from his perspective, then she attacks him.

Out of universe, both Mystique's are sex symbols.

[Powerboy]

When I said ''I think'' I was talking about Stewart in Charlie's Angels. The rest was me speculating what turns men off from female action films.

There is a general conception of masculinity and femininity that plays into movies. Let's not pretend Angelina Jolie was cast as Lara Croft in the late 90s because for her acting alone. She was one of the most beautiful actresses at that time and that was a seller. She was though looking but still feminine.

Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder in movies unless you are Jennifer Lawrence painted Blue playing Mystique and even that character admitted she was not attractive to men. Have we ever seen a 200 pound woman playing an action role or acting as the love interest? 95% of every action girl I see in a female action or male action film is physically very attractive and feminine looking.

Unfortunately, yes. I think Harrison Ford was older when he first played Indiana Jones than Angelina Jolie was the last time she played Lara Croft. While many men are playing action stars when they are so old it takes them a half hour to get out of a chair (with all due respect to Sean Connery, people in the theater were smirking at how slow moving he was in his last movie, the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen), no woman that old will ever get cast as an action star. We will never see Jolie play Croft again even if she wanted to. As long as the people who have the most control are men, there will always be that tendency to see and cast women through the lens of the male perspective and male desires.

[CliffHanger2]

Unfortunately, yes. I think Harrison Ford was older when he first played Indiana Jones than Angelina Jolie was the last time she played Lara Croft. While many men are playing action stars when they are so old it takes them a half hour to get out of a chair (with all due respect to Sean Connery, people in the theater were smirking at how slow moving he was in his last movie, the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen), no woman that old will ever get cast as an action star. We will never see Jolie play Croft again even if she wanted to. As long as the people who have the most control are men, there will always be that tendency to see and cast women through the lens of the male perspective and male desires.

I think in the case of Jolie she just isn't interested or maybe has health issues. Theron is the same age and still doing action movies and so Jennifer Garner. Garner is 48!Women are getting cast older these days.

[Vakanai]

That is a very broad and very inaccurate generalization.

*You* might not like women taking on traditionally male roles, but there are plenty of guys who do.

Also, 'traditional' is not an excuse to continue a particular way of thinking. It is often used as justification for people to continue to put forth sexist/racist/ageist ideas that are outdated. The world evolves, and tradition can be used to try to stop or ignore that evolution. It was traditional, for example, for women not to have credit cards because the man handled all the money.

That changed in the 70s, but it took that long because of 'traditional' male-led households. People realized how ridiculous it was and changed with the times.

Likewise, nurses and teachers and secretaries/assistants were once 'female only' roles, but then that barrier got broken down as well.

'Old-fashioned' and 'outdated' gender roles are constantly growing and changing, and that applies to films and television. We only now just got the first black woman anchoring a prime time news show as of last week when 'traditionally' desk anchors were a male-only field. Barriers are still being broken and the walls delineating what is 'male' and 'female' in media are changing with it.

From my decades of experience, the majority of men that I know just want a well-made, well-written and well-acted movie experience, gender be damned.

Okay, I only watch certain news shows, but I'm going to call bull on just getting a primetime news anchor who is a black woman last week - PBS News Hour is national primetime and that had a black woman as news anchor, the late great Gwen Ifill, for years (RIP).

[Vakanai]

Unfortunately, yes. I think Harrison Ford was older when he first played Indiana Jones than Angelina Jolie was the last time she played Lara Croft. While many men are playing action stars when they are so old it takes them a half hour to get out of a chair (with all due respect to Sean Connery, people in the theater were smirking at how slow moving he was in his last movie, the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen), no woman that old will ever get cast as an action star. We will never see Jolie play Croft again even if she wanted to. As long as the people who have the most control are men, there will always be that tendency to see and cast women through the lens of the male perspective and male desires.

I think I remember from the director's commentary on The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen hearing that Sean Connery had like a painful knee thing going on during filming, so it might not have been his age at fault there.

[Gaelforce]

Okay, I only watch certain news shows, but I'm going to call bull on just getting a primetime news anchor who is a black woman last week - PBS News Hour is national primetime and that had a black woman as news anchor, the late great Gwen Ifill, for years (RIP).

I apologize and mispoke.

First black female anchor of a *cable* news show. I meant no disrespect to the late, great Gwen Ifill.

[Vakanai]

I apologize and mispoke.

First black female anchor of a *cable* news show. I meant no disrespect to the late, great Gwen Ifill.

That works. Shame cable news took so long to get more diverse. I watched a lot of News Hour while Gwen Ifill was co-anchor.

[Powerboy]

I think I remember from the director's commentary on The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen hearing that Sean Connery had like a painful knee thing going on during filming, so it might not have been his age at fault there.

That may be though, to his credit, I think he knew it was time to call it quits. They've tried to get him back, sometimes just for cameos, even offering to film the cameo where he lives and he still says no, making it clear that retired includes cameos.

[Midvillian1322]

Captain Marvel had strong help from the boys. The boys who love MCU movies saw her film. Her movie could have bombed like Elektra , Charlie's Angels and Catwoman if she was not part of the MCU. Most female comic films are not good and Captain Marvel was no different.

Wonder Woman may be an iconic character but there was no safe bet her movie was going to be successful. Her movie was quite good though.


Emma Watson's Belle from The Beauty and the Beast Live action was lovely and likeable, the movie was okay not as good as the cartoon. Brie Larson and Captain Marvel was not the best idea.

NoW your talking about your opinion on movie quality, has nothing to do with Men finding them attractive or masculine females not doing well as leading ladies in a action film.

Eh I wouldn't say those characters weren't feminine.

The person I was responding to was calling Kristen Stewsrt in Charlie angels masculine. Captain Marvrl and Furiose are more masculine that that. I'm not saying they aren't feminine at all.

[thwhtGuardian]

Captain Marvel had strong help from the boys. The boys who love MCU movies saw her film. Her movie could have bombed like Elektra , Charlie's Angels and Catwoman if she was not part of the MCU. Most female comic films are not good and Captain Marvel was no different.

Wonder Woman may be an iconic character but there was no safe bet her movie was going to be successful. Her movie was quite good though.


Emma Watson's Belle from The Beauty and the Beast Live action was lovely and likeable, the movie was okay not as good as the cartoon. Brie Larson and Captain Marvel was not the best idea.

Why can't you just admit you were wrong, the stats are right there and the male audience didn't overwhelm the female audience in either of those films.

[Totoro Man]

Many male movies are rubbish and they don't fail. 99% of every female movie considered rubbish fails.

I used to have a male friend that hated Flight Plan. Reason- Jodi Foster was unattractive with masculine features.

wait? what? Jodie Foster might not have been Brooke Shields, Christy Brinkley, or Natasha Kinski but she was still considered conventionally pretty in her youth. sure, she might not be "your type"... but her decades long film career in Hollywood suggest that she's still conventionally attractive to a lot of people.

I mean, if you used to hang out with people that thought like that I guess I can see why you made the opening post... but, I think you'll find that MOST people aren't quite THAT weird. I also believe that your declared list of reasons is mostly wrong. but I'll break out the explanation for that a bit later.

[Totoro Man]

I think in the case of Jolie she just isn't interested or maybe has health issues. Theron is the same age and still doing action movies and so Jennifer Garner. Garner is 48!Women are getting cast older these days.

say... aren't Angelina Jolie, Charlize Theron, and Jennifer Garner all considered... y'know, staggeringly beautiful? pretty sure each one of them have been in that People Magazine "Most Beautiful People in the World" at least once.

sorry, I'm not disagreeing with you... I'm just reminding folks that beautiful, charismatic, and powerful performers (regardless of gender) tend to keep getting work even as they get older if their health and will to continue make allowances for it.

[Totoro Man]

Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder in movies unless you are Jennifer Lawrence painted Blue playing Mystique and even that character admitted she was not attractive to men. Have we ever seen a 200 pound woman playing an action role or acting as the love interest? 95% of every action girl I see in a female action or male action film is physically very attractive and feminine looking.

"beauty is not in the eye of the beholder?" really? are you a practicing plastic surgeon, or something? do you have some mathematics to back up that claim?

while it's true that there are culturally accepted norms... there's still plenty of room for variant opinions. I feel like I'm the only person I know that finds Kim Kardashian to be a fairly unattractive woman... I find her rather appalling, to be honest.

when "news articles" have plastic surgeons declaring that Bela Hadid is the most beautiful woman in the world I find myself quoting Aku from Samurai Jack: I DISAGREE! I mean, I guess she's not ugly... but I would be hard-pressed to declare her the MOST beautiful. although I can see why a plastic surgeon might think so! ;-)

as for the complaint of "when do we see a 200-pound female love interest"? honestly, this is a Hollywood thing. it's probably never going to change. it reminds me of a woman complaining on her blog about a plus-sized woman being on the cover of the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue. her complaint? "oh, but she's still conventionally pretty in spite of being a plus-size model! when are overweight and ordinary looking women going to be on the cover of a magazine?"

my answer to that is this: magazine covers are typically reserved for attractive and/or exceptional people. they might not LOOK exceptional but they have DONE something exceptional to merit attention. this is true of men as well. magazine covers and Hollywood are very much alike. people will pay money to see attractive people. now, if an otherwise overweight and attractive woman founds a multi-million dollar company THEN she'll be put on the cover of a magazine.

even in the realm of CEOs and start-up companies people that can be considered conventionally attractive are going to do better than people that are not. it's just a fact of life. people are prejudiced to favor attractive people unless they have compelling motivations to the contrary. it starts when we're little kids... and unless persistent action is taken to correct against it... it never goes away. human beings are naturally inclined to be drawn towards beautiful human specimens.

But people did find Jennifer Lawrence and Rebecca Romijn attractive as Mystique...

as ed2962 and Steel Inquisitor already pointed out: if people ALREADY find Jennifer Lawrence or Rebecca Romijn to be beautiful then covering them up with blue body paint, make up, and prosthetics isn't going to stop people from thinking that they're STILL attractive.

I mean, if people think that Zoe Saladana and Karen Gillan are beautiful it's not huge stretch of the imagination for them to also decide that Gamora and Nebula in GOTG was an attractive females as well.

all four of those women are very easily categorized as being "beautiful" or "conventionally pretty" by the general public.

going back to the OP. the opening post makes a fairly large number of assertions that I believe are generally true of older men. we're talking about people that are over 40 years of age.

I think you're wrong on every point overall. but, if we're talking about grumpy old men over 50 that are still anchored to gender norms in the most old-fashioned and parochial way... I suppose you have a point.

a lot of these excuses for female led action movies failing seem like that... excuses.

Castle... we know of your undying contempt for Disney and the MCU... I'm sure you have your reasons... but, geez, Captain Marvel was a successful film by any measure.

[Totoro Man]

Why do female driven action movies fail? From a Man's POV. What is it about female driven action, superhero or science fiction films that makes you less interested. I have some ideas that could be wrong.
Men don't find women believable as action stars

beyond the basic implication of sexism... the suspension of disbelief required for action movies to 'work' is typically incredible. even here, a lot of important world-building and thoughtful choreography is required.

oh, and Asia has been pumping out female led action movies for decades. maybe that's because some Asian cultures seem to have noticeably different cultural expectations for their narratives. it's okay for women to be action movie leads when the time calls for it. [of course, just like Hollywood, the movies will do better if the main characters are attractive... because, to put it bluntly, people like watching good looking people on film]

that women are physically weaker than men, on average, is incontestably a fact of reality. they're typically smaller and typically do less to cultivate and strengthen their muscle mass. however, a good choreography would know this and plan accordingly.

obviously there are athletes where this is the exception to the rule. but we have gender segregated sports to help work past those differences. it's why I'm never going to be as strong as a co-worker who's 6-ft tall and weighs 270 pounds. less height, muscle, and pure body mass means I can't do as much heavy lifting. it's purely about the mechanics of the human body.

and this gets me back to choreography. a good fight choreography will find interesting and creative ways to work with what they have and MAKE things as believable as possible in the context of the film.

the choreography needs to consider what is possible within the context of the world being depicted. people could believe that Trinity could do these things in "the Matrix" because the world setting allowed her to bypass the normal laws of physics. "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" allowed people to do insanely ridiculous things... but they were consistently portrayed as doing such throughout the movie - and it's based so heavily on the wuxia tradition that people just rolled with it. [they also saved the really crazy stuff for near the end of the film]

NOBODY complained that the female leads in "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" were "unbelievable". like every movie... it's more important that the characters are well written and well acted

Men fear the movie will be too much of a chick flick

honestly, the biggest difference between a chick flick and a conventional movie romance is that of emphasis. in common usage a 'chick flick is essentially another short-hand name for a romance narrative... typically, in this scenario the romance is the main plot instead of the secondary plot. otherwise, it's essentially just another story.

of course, you also have 'chick flicks' that focus on death, friendship, loss, etc. like "Thelma and Louise", "the Joy Luck Club", "Beaches", "Steel Magnolias", etc. in each case the movie will succeed or fail on the strength of it's characters, story, and the performances of the people creating the movie.

Fear of romantic male leads

what? you mean there are guys out there who are so insecure that they can't stomach the prospect of watching movies with other men in them? that just sounds mental. when I watched the 2020 version of "Emma" I didn't avoid watching the film because I was afraid of Johnny Flynn! [I still think that Jonny Lee Miller was a better Mr. Knightley, though]

Unconscious sexism that the female gender is weaker or bitchier

I kinda doubt the idea that it's "unconscious sexism" that leads men to think that "the female gender is weaker or bitchier". I've met a lot of guys that have a low opinion of women because women have a low opinion of them. and, in most cases, the lack of respect these women showed towards those men was entirely deserved! I've met a lot of selfish jerks over the years that somehow, against all odds and their own obvious personal character flaws, STILL find a way to blame women for all of their problems in life.

Men cannot relate to female character development or women issues

it really depends on the type of story you're trying to tell and what the audience brings to the story. I saw Greta Gerwig's adaptation of "Little Women" in theaters because I liked the story and the characters. I enjoyed Gerwig's work elsewhere and felt she could do a really nice adaptation. besides, the main character, Jo, is an aspiring writer that wants to tell stories... as a lifelong creator I can very easily identify with the main character of "Little Women" because her primary struggle was to create and sell her work.

they also seriously overhauled Amy's character to make her more modern and appealing and Florence Pugh knocked it out of the park [I'm looking forward to her possibly taking over the Black Widow character... because, honestly, I find her to be a more compelling performer than ScarJo]

The female character is never attractive enough to hold interest.

These are just some of my reasons I believe men are lukewarm to female driven movies.

beyond a certain point: the story and character have to be compelling enough to justify people -finishing- the movie. we could make an example of Luc Besson's "Anna". [yeah, I watched it because I actually like the high fashion modelling and runway work that Sasha Luss has done in the past. hey, high fashion is wearable art... I like art, so it wasn't a huge transition to start appreciating fashion. it doesn't hurt that Sasha Luss is really pretty. I was also expecting Cillian Murphy and Hellen Mirren to be.. more fun than they actually were].

anyways... here is a movie where the main character is supposed to be strikingly beautiful... but the character is so blandly written and poorly defined that critics and audiences just tuned out. the movie was so clunky and by the numbers that I couldn't actually finish it in one sitting! I had to break it up in 30 minute intervals! Sasha Luss, as Anna, was certainly pretty... but her character was badly written and her performance wasn't that great. like Cindy Crawford before her... being a world-class model doesn't turn you into a world-class actor.

you could cast one of the most successful models in the world at that time (aka, look at Kathy Ireland or Cindy Crawford for other examples) and STILL have the movie fail miserably... because it's story and characters were just that badly done.

while your opening assertions maybe true of older men (I'm thinking of guys over 40) it's not necessarily true of younger generations. I've seen a room full of boys and girls all enjoy "the Powerpuff Girls', "Miraculous Ladybug", or even "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic". in this case, you have major characters that are predominantly female - but they are written in a way that everybody in the room can enjoy them. "Ladybug", in some ways, reminds me of the Golden Age Spiderman stories by Lee and Ditko. and it's got those hilariously ridiculous one-shot villains as well.

[CliffHanger2]

say... aren't Angelina Jolie, Charlize Theron, and Jennifer Garner all considered... y'know, staggeringly beautiful? pretty sure each one of them have been in that People Magazine "Most Beautiful People in the World" at least once.

sorry, I'm not disagreeing with you... I'm just reminding folks that beautiful, charismatic, and powerful performers (regardless of gender) tend to keep getting work even as they get older if their health and will to continue make allowances for it.

Yeah I think there are some cases of black listing or stuff like that-like with Mira Sorvino. But if a woman can avoid all that yeah. There's quite a few actresses from the 90s still getting work.