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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowfyr View Post
    Female driven means, that a girl has a stalker and is defined all by him? The girls in the Harry Potter movies had more to do and were better written than any of the women in the Twilight movies.
    Watching the first Twilight I wished for a Vampire Hunter to come to town and put an end to the vampire stalking girls in high school(wonder how often he did that before). Buffy or Sonja Blue would have been esp. great for that.

    And you are the only one defining Twilight as action movies. But that is the result of your usual moving the goalposts and grasping at straws to bolster your argument.
    Yeah, I‘d say that “female driven action movies” kind of require the females to be driving the action, not just females being part of the action. So neither HP nor Twilight would really count, as HP is driven by Harry even though Hermione, Mrs. Weasley, and there’s do a lot action themselves, and Twilight does it’s darnedest to keep Bella away from the main action for most of its run, and even having a fake action scene in its final film for the climax when she *is* ostensibly ready to throw down.

    Good rule of thumb to apply: if the main character who matters most to the story is a girl and if she’s the champion of the climactic struggle and it’s an action film overall, than it’s much, much more likely to be a female driven action film.

    Ripley slugging it out with the Xenomorph in Aliens? Female driven action film. The girl with psychic abilities taking down Jason in that one Friday the 13th? Probably not, because it’s a horror film. Black Widow in Avengers? Not a female driven action film because she’s the only girland the dudes are just as big if not more important to the climax.

    Rey in The Force Awakens? Probably counts, because she’s clearly the main champion of the final confrontation with Kylo. Rey in The Last Jedi? Maybe not... because not only is her role diminished in favor of Luke and Kylo, but those two also have the climactic struggle, not her. Rey in The Rise of Skywalker? More likely to be a female driven action film than The Last Jedi, since she *is* the main hero of the final battle with Palpatine... but perhaps less than in The Force Awakens, as the film inserts a “Cinderella” element to the last bit and is trying to make Ben Solo Rey’s equal.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  2. #197
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    I came across this and thought it'd be interesting to people in this thread. Of course they're just focusing one particular film, but they touch on a few of the issues that some of the posters brought up ( plus several other issues ).


  3. #198
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Due to some reason i have liked women in horror more.

    The reason being that they show more then just action. Giving some character and personality to the hero makes it more believable.

    The Bride is one prime example. The fight with Crazy 88 caught my attention. But the sterling performance by Uma Thurman is what sustains it. It could easily have been just an angry deadly woman. Which would have made a fine entry as a revenge flick. But the gamut of emotions she shows throughout her journey of revenge, is what makes her character so unforgettable.

    Ripley and Sarah Conner make some great action ladies. Both started out in horror before an action packed sequel. Characters like these makes me think that they make action guys redundant. What can you do with the guys? Most of the time its some invincible superhero, and if you're lucky you would get a good one liner or two. And that's it. Nowadays, people prefer characters who are both vulnerable and bad*ss.

    Horror really gets it going imo. The conceit is that they are under attack and when the tables are turned it often gives a very satisfying experience.

    Grace from Ready or Not became an instant favorite. A lot of it is due to Weaving's incredible performance. I think one of the reasons it works really well for me is that even though she is resourceful and brave she is just another person. I am not a guy who would pick up a gun and become a bad*ss instantly. She got lucky, had help but her victory is well deserved and satisfying.

    On the opposite end is Erin from You're Next. And she's great in her own way. What you need is just a line about her survivalist upbringing. Rest is in the creative and satisfying ways she kills the intruders. Its so satisfying to see a capable final girl. In horror most people die due to their stupidity.

    Characters like these highlight the reason why action works. At least for me. You can be in awe only for so long. But mix it with a bit of vulnerability, some character and if needed comedy and you have action for the ages. Not unlike Jackie Chan.

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Yeah, I‘d say that “female driven action movies” kind of require the females to be driving the action, not just females being part of the action. So neither HP nor Twilight would really count, as HP is driven by Harry even though Hermione, Mrs. Weasley, and there’s do a lot action themselves, and Twilight does it’s darnedest to keep Bella away from the main action for most of its run, and even having a fake action scene in its final film for the climax when she *is* ostensibly ready to throw down.

    Good rule of thumb to apply: if the main character who matters most to the story is a girl and if she’s the champion of the climactic struggle and it’s an action film overall, than it’s much, much more likely to be a female driven action film.

    Ripley slugging it out with the Xenomorph in Aliens? Female driven action film. The girl with psychic abilities taking down Jason in that one Friday the 13th? Probably not, because it’s a horror film. Black Widow in Avengers? Not a female driven action film because she’s the only girland the dudes are just as big if not more important to the climax.

    Rey in The Force Awakens? Probably counts, because she’s clearly the main champion of the final confrontation with Kylo. Rey in The Last Jedi? Maybe not... because not only is her role diminished in favor of Luke and Kylo, but those two also have the climactic struggle, not her. Rey in The Rise of Skywalker? More likely to be a female driven action film than The Last Jedi, since she *is* the main hero of the final battle with Palpatine... but perhaps less than in The Force Awakens, as the film inserts a “Cinderella” element to the last bit and is trying to make Ben Solo Rey’s equal.
    Lol. I guess Obi Wan and Anakin don’t count in Attack of the Clones. Since Yoda and Dooku have the climatic struggle not them.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soubhagya View Post
    Due to some reason i have liked women in horror more.

    The reason being that they show more then just action. Giving some character and personality to the hero makes it more believable.

    The Bride is one prime example. The fight with Crazy 88 caught my attention. But the sterling performance by Uma Thurman is what sustains it. It could easily have been just an angry deadly woman. Which would have made a fine entry as a revenge flick. But the gamut of emotions she shows throughout her journey of revenge, is what makes her character so unforgettable.

    Ripley and Sarah Conner make some great action ladies. Both started out in horror before an action packed sequel. Characters like these makes me think that they make action guys redundant. What can you do with the guys? Most of the time its some invincible superhero, and if you're lucky you would get a good one liner or two. And that's it. Nowadays, people prefer characters who are both vulnerable and bad*ss.

    Horror really gets it going imo. The conceit is that they are under attack and when the tables are turned it often gives a very satisfying experience.

    Grace from Ready or Not became an instant favorite. A lot of it is due to Weaving's incredible performance. I think one of the reasons it works really well for me is that even though she is resourceful and brave she is just another person. I am not a guy who would pick up a gun and become a bad*ss instantly. She got lucky, had help but her victory is well deserved and satisfying.

    On the opposite end is Erin from You're Next. And she's great in her own way. What you need is just a line about her survivalist upbringing. Rest is in the creative and satisfying ways she kills the intruders. Its so satisfying to see a capable final girl. In horror most people die due to their stupidity.

    Characters like these highlight the reason why action works. At least for me. You can be in awe only for so long. But mix it with a bit of vulnerability, some character and if needed comedy and you have action for the ages. Not unlike Jackie Chan.
    Aren't women in horror movies always waiting to be saved or are the victims. Horror has never been in my top 3 favourite genre, I prefer women more in fantasy. I think women in fantasy are more believable as heroes if it is about physical feats or intelligence, what most of them lack as of 2020 is decent characterization think no further than Batwoman or Captain Marvel.
    Last edited by Castle; 09-29-2020 at 01:07 PM.

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Aren't women in horror movies always waiting to be saved or are the victims. Horror has never been in my top 3 favourite genre, I prefer women more in fantasy. I think women in fantasy are more believable as heroes if it is about physical feats or intelligence, what most of them lack as of 2020 is decent characterization think no further than Batwoman or Captain Marvel.
    The point in horror is that no one is safe. Everyone's a victim.

    The characteristics of horror can play to its advantage. Jackie Chan is a great analogy. Even though Jackie is skilled, he often is the underdog. His fights have many ebbs and flows. Sometimes he has the upper hand. Other times his opponent has. So, when Jackie wins it feels satisfying.

    Most of it is down to great performances and writing. I haven't bothered mentioning characters like Sidney (Scream), Starling (Silence of The Lambs) or Tree (Happy Death Day) as we are discussing action. Also, the fact that there is a lot of material. For every Ripley there are dozens of useless female characters.

    Action roles for female characters was already rare because of how society was. And when they tried, they did terrible jobs with the likes of Supergirl and Catwoman.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Aren't women in horror movies always waiting to be saved or are the victims. Horror has never been in my top 3 favourite genre, I prefer women more in fantasy. I think women in fantasy are more believable as heroes if it is about physical feats or intelligence, what most of them lack as of 2020 is decent characterization think no further than Batwoman or Captain Marvel.
    It may run against your bias but a lot of people think Captain Marvel had a lot of characterization. Certainly more than your "female driven action movie" Twilight

  8. #203
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    I feel Batwoman might have suffered some in characterization due to the acting. As mentioned before, acting is a big deal in these types of movies. A lot of the best action movies didn't have a lot of character-driven scripts, but the actors and actresses can display emotion and nuance of their characters at the same time.

    Captain Marvel had characterization! All those dream sequences, her finding out who she was finding her life, etc. You learned a little bit more about her as she also discovers herself. Her bit at the end where she just blasts the guy instead of fights him in hand to hand combat. It wasn't a standard "I have this gaping character flaw" type of arc, but it also made sense, she was a well put together person before she became Captain Marvel.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by titanfan View Post
    I feel Batwoman might have suffered some in characterization due to the acting. As mentioned before, acting is a big deal in these types of movies. A lot of the best action movies didn't have a lot of character-driven scripts, but the actors and actresses can display emotion and nuance of their characters at the same time.

    Captain Marvel had characterization! All those dream sequences, her finding out who she was finding her life, etc. You learned a little bit more about her as she also discovers herself. Her bit at the end where she just blasts the guy instead of fights him in hand to hand combat. It wasn't a standard "I have this gaping character flaw" type of arc, but it also made sense, she was a well put together person before she became Captain Marvel.
    Yea but there was comedy in Captain Marvel so none of that counts lol

  10. #205
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    What y'all are talking about isn't about men and women as much as it's about presumed gender roles. Aside from Jackie Chan, that's why "Die Hard" was a breath of fresh air at the time - because Bruce Willis was the last guy you'd think could kill a building full of terrorists (who turned out to be thieves, yes). He tries to run, he hides, he tries to call the police and he's scared AF, but he ends up killing them anyway. It's the vulnerability of the protagonist that makes the danger more dramatic, regardless of gender.

    But that's just one way to go with it. That's not to say there can't be a lot of fun to be had with an invincible hero - it's just different.

  11. #206
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  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I have to raise an eyebrow at Jinx being Bond's equal.

    Otherwise, I do agree with much of the video.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    Lol. I guess Obi Wan and Anakin don’t count in Attack of the Clones. Since Yoda and Dooku have the climatic struggle not them.
    The Dooku duels are one long, continuous climax against the film’s main villain, and still act to clearly demonstrate Anakin’s physical and Force abilities contrasting with his character flaws, and his and Obi-Wan’s lack of cohesion as a team at this point. Yoda merely acts as the needed reinforcement to save their bacon.

    In TLJ, Rey’s only near-headline fight is against nameless, characterless stunt performers in full body costumes as back up to Kylo’s coup de tat that takes place well before the actual finale, from which she is physically separated as Luke takes her spot against Kylo, and she joins Chewie as a glorified Uber service.

    On a scale of female action heroes and their primacy in movies, Rey’s TLJ story is somewhere between Black Widow’s ensemble role as the only female hero in the first Avengers movie (where while it’s good she’s there, she’s very close to just being an example of female tokenism in an otherwise male-dominated movie) and, say, Padme in Attack of the Clones, who also participates in the first part of the last battle but is removed form the climactic personal confrontation and brings transport separate from it.

    Plus, TLJ is simply far more structured around Luke and Kylo than it is her - her scenes with them are focused on them, and not her.

    In contrast, she’s clearly the main POV character in TFA and TROS, all the way through their climaxes... though there, the contrast comes when you notice that TFA had her deuteragonist be played by a black actor with a character arc that actually complemented Rey’s and helped propel her forward, while in TROS her deuteragonist is a white guy with a character arc that parasitically undermines Rey’s story and dragged her down.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  14. #209
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    While I wouldn't exactly be upset at Kill Bill 3, I feel Tarantino might officially be out of ideas.

    https://variety.com/2021/film/news/q...rn-1235092492/

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    While I wouldn't exactly be upset at Kill Bill 3, I feel Tarantino might officially be out of ideas.

    https://variety.com/2021/film/news/q...rn-1235092492/
    Maybe. I'd still probably watch it anyway.

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