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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    In 2019 number 8, 9 and 10 were Chris Evans, Paul Rudd and Will Smith.

    If you found an older list those guys you had never heard of were probably Bollywood actors.
    I had to look up what Bollywood even means and I think you're right. It was a list that contained some "Bollywood" actors.
    This is what courage looks like.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    56% of Wonder Woman's audience was female, so it wasn't relying upon the male demo for action movies.

    Btw, your point is rather confusing - you want to know why men won't go see female led movies, but when female led movies succeed, you discount them because men like them?

    As to women led action movies that scored over 200 million ?

    Captain Marvel - $1,128,275,263
    Alice in Wonderland - $1,025,467,110
    Hunger Games Catching Fire - $865,011,746
    Wonder Woman - $821,847,012
    Maleficent - $758,410,378
    Hunger Games Mockingjay Part 1 - $755,356,711
    Hunger Games - $694,394,724
    Hunger Games Mockingjay Part 2 - $658,344,137
    Maleficent 2 - $491,730,089
    Bumblebee - $467,989,645
    Lucy - $458,863,600
    Alita Battle Angel - $404,852,543
    Mad Max Fury Road - $375,211,079
    The Golden Compass - $372,234,864
    Salt - $293,503,394
    Lara Croft: Tomb Raider - $273,703,394
    Tomb Raider - $274,470,394
    Charlie's Angels - $264,105,545
    Charlie's Angels Full Throttle - $259,175,788

    There's more, but I'm bored

    Oh, and that's leaving off the big ones:

    Frozen - $1,280,803,156
    Frozen 2 - $1,450,026,933

    Not to mention Brave, Moana, Mulan, etc.

    So...in summary:

    Your claim that 'many male movies are rubbish and don't fail' vs '99% of female movies fail' is incorrect as per the top 100 list I presented earlier.

    There have been a grand total to date of 5 female led superhero films - Supergirl, Catwoman, Elektra, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel. Hardly a huge sample size to base this on. The fact that when one fails the studios wait 10-20 years before making another one proves my point.

    Btw, Elektra broke even at the box office. It cost (before marketing) 43,000,000 and it made 57,000,000. Not a money-maker, but not technically a flop, either

    Supergirl was a weird one. It was only released in the UK and the US and I couldn't find its budget anywhere. Oddly, the big stars (Peter O'Toole and Faye Dunaway) won Raspberries, but Helen Slater won a Saturn Award.

    Oh, and Birds of Prey broke 200,000,000 on an 85,000,000 budget, so that makes 2 flops, one break even, and 3 successes for female led superhero films. I'm thinking that average will go up with Black Widow and WW84, but I'm not sure how badly Covid is going to screw up the box office.

    I'm a woman and I generally hate chick flicks. So do many of my female friends, but my husband likes them. Pigeon-holing movie-goers by gender is a bad idea. Successful movies appeal to all genders. Twilight was something like 80/20 female to male, but Avengers Endgame? Far from being the opposite was 58/42.

    In other words, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful if it weren't for the women who saw it, and please don't come back with 'but they just went to see it with their boyfriends.' Every one of my female friends who saw it wanted to see it.

    So, in summary:

    1. Female led action movies can be highly successful.
    2. Plenty of female led action movies have made more than $200,000,000
    3. Studios have traditionally refused to give female superheroes the opportunities they've given male superheroes (by a huge margin). It took WB 20 years to try a second one (and their answer to 'how to we save the female superhero film' was Catwoman? Really?) and it took Marvel 14 years to try again after Elektra broke even.
    4. Men and women like female led action movies.
    If we are talking strictly superhero moves based upon already existing female comic book characters, definitely the problem tended to start with a horrible script such as the Supergirl movie. Then the attitude that superheroine movies don't work based on one failure and years before trying again.

    Then you get Catwoman which, as one reviewer put it, was about Halle Berry's body first and foremost with everything else being secondary except the plot which was tertiary.

    Then after years and years more, we finally get the Wonder Woman movie, which has a great script, excellent acting and is *gasp* directed by a woman who doesn't allow it to slip totally into being a male fantasy (no ogling camera angles among other things) and it's an overwhelming success. And anybody who seriously tries to argue that it's because it was connected to MoS and B v S... Well, only in the sense that WW had an appearance in B v S and was considered the best thing about the movie.

    Captain Marvel being connected to the MCU is a better argument but making a billion dollars? Sure, it's connection to the MCU and right before Endgame helped. But a superheroine movie still made a billion dollars. Is anybody trying to make excuses to explain away the success of Iron-Man? Of course not.

    Sadly, I do think that if a couple of superheroine movies flop, there will be a long delay before another one because too many executives will just assume there's only one possible reason they flopped as opposed to the obviously lousy scripts of the ones that flopped.

    I also don't get the arguments of some that the movie's success has to be significantly among men. The money it made is the money it made. That there will be some men that will never like a superheroine movie is besides the point.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Then after years and years more, we finally get the Wonder Woman movie, which has a great script, excellent acting and is *gasp* directed by a woman who doesn't allow it to slip totally into being a male fantasy (no ogling camera angles among other things) and it's an overwhelming success. And anybody who seriously tries to argue that it's because it was connected to MoS and B v S... Well, only in the sense that WW had an appearance in B v S and was considered the best thing about the movie.
    Depending on who you ask, it either failed because it didn't bring in as much money as it should have or it succeeded for reasons that had nothing to do with the fact that people liked it. Examples of the latter argument are

    * It was connected to the DCEU, as you mentioned

    * Wonder Woman was always a house hold name so of course it made money (never mind that Diana hadn't had a solo adaptation since the 70s and the only thing people knew about Wonder Woman was her name and her look. Also this was her first movie ever meaning it took 76 years for her to get a movie.)

    * Captain Marvel hadn't come out yet.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Why do female driven action movies fail? From a Man's POV. What is it about female driven action, superhero or science fiction films that makes you less interested. I have some ideas that could be wrong

    Men don't find women believable as action stars
    Men fear the movie will be too much of a chick flick
    Fear of romantic male leads
    Unconscious sexism that the female gender is weaker or bitchier
    Men cannot relate to female character development or women issues
    The female character is never attractive enough to hold interest.


    These are just some of my reasons I believe men are lukewarm to female driven movies.
    Not true. Movies like Elektra or Catwoman for example did fail because they are not good movies. That some higher-ups did say they failed because of women in the lead was either them taking wrong conclusions or them trying to cover their a**es
    Last edited by lowfyr; 08-03-2020 at 02:30 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    56% of Wonder Woman's audience was female, so it wasn't relying upon the male demo for action movies.

    Btw, your point is rather confusing - you want to know why men won't go see female led movies, but when female led movies succeed, you discount them because men like them?

    As to women led action movies that scored over 200 million ?

    Captain Marvel - $1,128,275,263
    Alice in Wonderland - $1,025,467,110
    Hunger Games Catching Fire - $865,011,746
    Wonder Woman - $821,847,012
    Maleficent - $758,410,378
    Hunger Games Mockingjay Part 1 - $755,356,711
    Hunger Games - $694,394,724
    Hunger Games Mockingjay Part 2 - $658,344,137
    Maleficent 2 - $491,730,089
    Bumblebee - $467,989,645
    Lucy - $458,863,600
    Alita Battle Angel - $404,852,543
    Mad Max Fury Road - $375,211,079
    The Golden Compass - $372,234,864
    Salt - $293,503,394
    Lara Croft: Tomb Raider - $273,703,394
    Tomb Raider - $274,470,394
    Charlie's Angels - $264,105,545
    Charlie's Angels Full Throttle - $259,175,788

    There's more, but I'm bored

    Oh, and that's leaving off the big ones:

    Frozen - $1,280,803,156
    Frozen 2 - $1,450,026,933

    Not to mention Brave, Moana, Mulan, etc.

    So...in summary:

    Your claim that 'many male movies are rubbish and don't fail' vs '99% of female movies fail' is incorrect as per the top 100 list I presented earlier.

    There have been a grand total to date of 5 female led superhero films - Supergirl, Catwoman, Elektra, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel. Hardly a huge sample size to base this on. The fact that when one fails the studios wait 10-20 years before making another one proves my point.

    Btw, Elektra broke even at the box office. It cost (before marketing) 43,000,000 and it made 57,000,000. Not a money-maker, but not technically a flop, either

    Supergirl was a weird one. It was only released in the UK and the US and I couldn't find its budget anywhere. Oddly, the big stars (Peter O'Toole and Faye Dunaway) won Raspberries, but Helen Slater won a Saturn Award.

    Oh, and Birds of Prey broke 200,000,000 on an 85,000,000 budget, so that makes 2 flops, one break even, and 3 successes for female led superhero films. I'm thinking that average will go up with Black Widow and WW84, but I'm not sure how badly Covid is going to screw up the box office.

    I'm a woman and I generally hate chick flicks. So do many of my female friends, but my husband likes them. Pigeon-holing movie-goers by gender is a bad idea. Successful movies appeal to all genders. Twilight was something like 80/20 female to male, but Avengers Endgame? Far from being the opposite was 58/42.

    In other words, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful if it weren't for the women who saw it, and please don't come back with 'but they just went to see it with their boyfriends.' Every one of my female friends who saw it wanted to see it.

    So, in summary:

    1. Female led action movies can be highly successful.
    2. Plenty of female led action movies have made more than $200,000,000
    3. Studios have traditionally refused to give female superheroes the opportunities they've given male superheroes (by a huge margin). It took WB 20 years to try a second one (and their answer to 'how to we save the female superhero film' was Catwoman? Really?) and it took Marvel 14 years to try again after Elektra broke even.
    4. Men and women like female led action movies.
    I really want a like button here just for this great comment.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Don't forget MCU dragged out not having any female lead movies. Captain Marvel and Black Widow are coming after 20 movies with male leads.

    It must have a lot to do with faith. Studios believe the movie could flop hard . For those that want to know why Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel had less budget. that's why.

    One of the neat methods they have used to get around selling female action movies is get a very high prolific director. Quentin Tarantino's Kill Bill. Uma Thurman is not the selling point. Tarantino is.
    Feige wanted to do female lead movies before but was blocked by Perlmutter, who was his superior. Perlmutter was one of the dinosaurs, who thought female lead movies could not be sucessful. After he got removed, Feige did do movies like Captain Marvel or Black Panther. And they all proved Perlmutter wrong^^

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Btw, Elektra broke even at the box office. It cost (before marketing) 43,000,000 and it made 57,000,000. Not a money-maker, but not technically a flop, either

    Supergirl was a weird one. It was only released in the UK and the US and I couldn't find its budget anywhere. Oddly, the big stars (Peter O'Toole and Faye Dunaway) won Raspberries, but Helen Slater won a Saturn Award.

    Oh, and Birds of Prey broke 200,000,000 on an 85,000,000 budget, so that makes 2 flops, one break even, and 3 successes for female led superhero films. I'm thinking that average will go up with Black Widow and WW84, but I'm not sure how badly Covid is going to screw up the box office.
    A movie usually has to make around 3 times it's budget to break even (the studios get only 50%-60% of the box office and the budget doesn't include marking cost).

    Meaning that Electra flopped and that Birds of Prey at best broke even (but more likely was a small loss).

  8. #68
    Mighty Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Most male action movies fail to do big business. For every successful one there are many that don't do much at the box office. People just pay more attention when its a female led one that fails while ignoring all the female led ones that have done fine.

  9. #69
    Mighty Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    A movie usually has to make around 3 times it's budget to break even (the studios get only 50%-60% of the box office and the budget doesn't include marking cost).

    Meaning that Electra flopped and that Birds of Prey at best broke even (but more likely was a small loss).
    People always come out with this estimate calculation (marketing doubles the cost to the studio etc), but to me this seems to hugely oversimplify the value of a movie over time. Movies always get a second life on rental, DVD, TV and streaming, and some continue to bring in revenue for decades. Obviously you get cult hits like the orgiinal Austin Powers and Blade Runner that made far more money in home formats than they ever did at the box office - enough to get sequels exploit that cultural cachet.

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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frobisher View Post
    People always come out with this estimate calculation (marketing doubles the cost to the studio etc), but to me this seems to hugely oversimplify the value of a movie over time. Movies always get a second life on rental, DVD, TV and streaming, and some continue to bring in revenue for decades. Obviously you get cult hits like the orgiinal Austin Powers and Blade Runner that made far more money in home formats than they ever did at the box office - enough to get sequels exploit that cultural cachet.
    Yeah but at least in case of Electra I kind of doubt that it did that great in home video...

    Also what you also have to keep in mind, the money for a movies comes often (at least partly) from investors and not from the studio, and those probably don't want to wait for a decade for the movie to make their money back.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    A movie usually has to make around 3 times it's budget to break even (the studios get only 50%-60% of the box office and the budget doesn't include marking cost).

    Meaning that Electra flopped and that Birds of Prey at best broke even (but more likely was a small loss).
    I think the marketing thing is something that fans came up with. A movie that grosses double it's production budget domestically is considered a success. John Wick had a budget of 20 million and did about 40mil domestic and another 45mil overseas and got a sequel. Studios damn sure didn't get 50% of that overseas gross either. But the movie was still considered a success.

  13. #73
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    Most current female action movies starting with Ghostbusters 2016 are unwatchable. Furthermore they insult and demean men. Why would men want to watch a movie with constant male mockery?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffHanger2 View Post
    I think the marketing thing is something that fans came up with. A movie that grosses double it's production budget domestically is considered a success. John Wick had a budget of 20 million and did about 40mil domestic and another 45mil overseas and got a sequel. Studios damn sure didn't get 50% of that overseas gross either. But the movie was still considered a success.
    It's not a fan creation. Studios will factor in marketing in the overall cost of the film. Especially when marketing budget end up matching the production budget.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    It's not a fan creation. Studios will factor in marketing in the overall cost of the film. Especially when marketing budget end up matching the production budget.
    Still that's not the measure by which studios judge success. If it was Wick and a lot of others wouldn't have got a sequel it would have been seen as a loss. They go by gross against production budget.

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