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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Gladiator himself certainly has NEVER had a feat like that in all of 616, so even if we ignore everything else and considering it a 616 feat I'd still call it an outlier for him.
    Gladiator, compared to characters with things like actual ongoing series or even just on the B-list of characters, barely exists in comics, and of those times he shows up, the times where he actually does anything of note are further fractional to that. It's not like he has an actual big ol career to go "but years and years of Gladiator performances..." The feat stands in fine with a guy who has otherwise had a fight measured in nanoseconds, blitz charged a guy across a galaxy in an eyeblink, outrace photons and on a minor note, apparently count to ten billion within moments. As far as board standards, it sits in fine thereby with both viable high end performances and presentation.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Except again, the actual comic books say that it is as shown in multiple scans. The entire point is that it was the future of 616 earth at the time.

    I can also tell you how it affected any of the characters there: They were all nullified out of existence. Time bubble and its contents no more. It's not like they're still around to be changed.

    The current argument against deciding multiple comic pages did not happen is... an appendix entry, and completely ignoring those scans.
    There are plenty of potential futures of 616, doesn't mean they are cannon, the ones that are have been covered in History of the Marvel universe, as it stands the one with Gladiator is not a canon future to 616 and we don't even know the effects a potential future has had on it's residence there, for instance Galactus in that timeline isn't even just a planet eater but consumes entire universes.

    Nobody is ignoring those scans from happening, however they happened to character that live/lived in Marvel-8810 not 616.

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Intothevoid View Post
    There are plenty of potential futures of 616, doesn't mean they are cannon, the ones that are have been covered in History of the Marvel universe, as it stands the one with Gladiator is not a canon future to 616 and we don't even know the effects a potential future has had on it's residence there, for instance Galactus in that timeline isn't even just a planet eater but consumes entire universes.

    Nobody is ignoring those scans from happening, however they happened to character that live/lived in Marvel-8810 not 616.
    The scans specifically refer to that future as the future of Earth at the time. The Kang chairman refers to and points it out explicitly as that. We see alternate possibilities falling away from it when travelled to as the future of Earth at the time. Reed demonstrates via experiment that it is the future of Earth at the time, connected directly to the present and impacting it.

    Nobody is ignoring those scans from happening, however they happened to character that live/lived in Marvel-8810 not 616.
    You are by definition ignoring those scans. That it was later not the future (because amongst other things the time bubble encasing it was, you know, nullified) does not change what it was and how it was depicted.

    we don't even know the effects a potential future has had on it's residence there, for instance Galactus in that timeline isn't even just a planet eater but consumes entire universes.
    You keep repeating this, despite that again, future was nullified, and that Galactus was altered while vulnerable as part of a long term plan to take effect in the future and, again, as per the ignoring scans thing, already healing.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Gladiator, compared to characters with things like actual ongoing series or even just on the B-list of characters, barely exists in comics, and of those times he shows up, the times where he actually does anything of note are further fractional to that. It's not like he has an actual big ol career to go "but years and years of Gladiator performances..." The feat stands in fine with a guy who has otherwise had a fight measured in nanoseconds, blitz charged a guy across a galaxy in an eyeblink, outrace photons and on a minor note, apparently count to ten billion within moments. As far as board standards, it sits in fine thereby with both viable high end performances and presentation.
    That's all fine and dandy but it's irrelevant to a VS fight were characters feats are everything. Gladiator has far too many showings of failing to actually showcase his speed apart from blitzing/traveling in a straight line for me to consider him being thousands of times faster in preforming any task compared to characters like Thor. He didn't have a fight measured in nanoseconds he had a feat were he reacted in nanonseconds, he blitzed Heimdall across a galaxy but that's more a travel feat and on top of that it's not really impressive in terms of striking since Heimdall tanked it just fine, if the photons you are referring to are the ones with the Galactus feat, that also has questionable canon since there were all kinds of shenanigans going there(like characters that have been dead for decades being suddenly alive, several characters having uniforms that they haven't worn in years, Mephisto not being in Las Vegas despite prior and after the events in Dr Stranges book he is still locked in Vegs, etc...), also the feat is way too vague to begin with. And i wouldn't use counting billions of stuff in mere seconds as a combat feat, there have been braniacs that can count countless of difference ways a battle can go in the heat of the fight but none of them are actually that fast.
    Last edited by Intothevoid; 08-05-2020 at 11:30 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    The scans specifically refer to that future as the future of Earth at the time. The Kang chairman refers to and points it out explicitly as that. We see alternate possibilities falling away from it when travelled to as the future of Earth at the time. Reed demonstrates via experiment that it is the future of Earth at the time, connected directly to the present and impacting it.
    At the time, maybe but that's since been retconned and once again it's the future, there have been plenty of potential futures for 616 where characters have been changed drastically, Gladiator never again using such speed outside of that one specific fight leads me to believe it's not something he can replicate currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    You are by definition ignoring those scans. That it was later not the future (because amongst other things the time bubble encasing it was, you know, nullified) does not change what it was and how it was depicted.
    No i am not, i am putting them in the place they belong Earth-8810, if you want to talk about Gladiator from the 8810 timeline we can and we can use that feat just fine, but i am not applying that feat to 616 one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    You keep repeating this, despite that again, future was nullified, and that Galactus was altered while vulnerable as part of a long term plan to take effect in the future and, again, as per the ignoring scans thing, already healing.
    Yes and all this goes back to the point i was making, these things no longer have any kind of connection to 616 characters, they exist or existed as their own separate thing and them being a potential future means there could and in some cases have been other variables that have changed certain characters.
    Last edited by Intothevoid; 08-05-2020 at 11:53 AM.

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    That's all fine and dandy but it's irrelevant to a VS fight were characters feats are everything.
    You say this, and then you say stuff like:

    He didn't have fight measured in nanoseconds he had feat were he reacted in nanonseconds, he blitz Heimdall across a galaxy but that's more a travel feat and on top of that it's not really impressive in terms of striking since Heimdall tanked it just fine,
    It happened timed for Heimdall blinking. He attacked him as part of it. That's a blitz. That he then didn't use said speed afterwards is nothing but standard speedster PIS. Heimdall tanking it is irrelevant to the speeds it demonstrates Gladiator can operate at.

    He didn't have fight measured in nanoseconds he had feat were he reacted in nanonseconds
    "He didn't fight in nanoseconds, he just showed he could react in nanoseconds". That's some really intense semantics.

    if the photons you are referring to are the ones with the Galactus feat, that also has questionable canon since there were all kinds of shenanigans going there
    You have some impressive standards as far as what you consider canon and not. That was the Gladiator that was Majestor of the Shi'ar, who showed up to help Doctor Strange out of the massive disruptions being caused to everything.

    also the feat is way too vague to begin with.
    It literally states that Gladiator dodges the blast by outracing the photons of it.

    Also i wouldn't use counting billions of stuff in mere seconds as a combat feat, there have been braniacs that can count countless of difference ways a battle can go in the heat of the fight but none of them are actually that fast.
    Reaction feats are reaction feats. Speed of acuity is speed of acuity. That is how this board works. If someone has a speed feat, they have a speed feat. It not showing up in a fight use is essentially PIS thereby. The standard of this board is not "only things someone does in a fight count".
    Last edited by Pendaran; 08-05-2020 at 11:37 AM.

  7. #67
    She/Her Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh's Avatar
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    I didn't know Gladiator outraced an attack made out of Monica Rambeaus.
    Yeah, but if you... man, we're getting into weird analogy territory, like if you disintegrated Superman's arms he wouldn't be able to go "fool! Little did you know that my arms and I are one and can be remade from me!" and will his arms back into being from pure nothingness. - Pendaran

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  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh View Post
    I didn't know Gladiator outraced an attack made out of Monica Rambeaus.
    It's a little known fact that Galactus can launch attacks made up of tiny Monica Rambeaus. He just doesn't use it often.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    He timed it for Heimdall blinking. He attacked him as part of it. That's a blitz. That he then didn't use said speed afterwards is nothing but standard speedster PIS. Heimdall tanking it is irrelevant to the speeds it demonstrates Gladiator can operate at.
    He timed Heimdall blinking as the moment to strike him, but traveling the galaxy was still a travel speed feat and timing someone blinking is not that impressive to begin with, not for a speedsters at least. So it wasn't PIS that he did the feat, it's PIS that he didn't use it seconds after in the same comic? Or maybe he just isn't that fast in combat speed? Or maybe Heimdall is? It's not irrelevant to his striking power, all that speed is pretty irrelevant if you can't even take out characters that aren't even on the standard high-tier level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    "He didn't fight in nanoseconds, he just showed he could react in nanoseconds". That's some really intense semantics.
    No it isn't really, because a fight can have dozens, maybe even hundreds or thousands of different punches, kicks thrown, dodges, grapples, etc... if an entire fight was in nanoseconds a character would be significantly faster than if he just preformed ONE of those punches in a nanosecond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    You have some impressive standards as far as what you consider canon and not. That was the Gladiator that was Majestor of the Shi'ar, who showed up to help Doctor Strange out of the massive disruptions being caused to everything.
    Yea i don't like when things don't fall into line or are specifically stated to belong to different timelines, i guess i am weird like that. And? There are characters in different timelines that occupy the exact same role as they do in 616, my problem lies in the plenty of other things that don't fall into place or outright contradict the events of current main Marvel timeline, that no one knows how to explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    It literally states that Gladiator dodges the blast by outracing the photons of it.
    Yea except he didn't outrace the photons, he literally jumps out of the blast itself and he gets burned to a crisp the second time he gets hit. Which i am not sure if the narration is referring he can outrace them in a literal race or does it mean he can see the photons and move out of their way before they hit him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Reaction feats are reaction feats. Speed of acuity is speed of acuity. That is how this board works. If someone has a speed feat, they have a speed feat. It not showing up in a fight use is essentially PIS thereby. The standard of this board is not "only things someone does in a fight count".
    Well it's a good thing a fight doesn't consistent of who can usually count faster the grains of sand on the ground, Glads would probably win most of those competitions.
    Last edited by Intothevoid; 08-05-2020 at 11:55 AM.

  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    He timed Heimdall blinking as the moment to strike him, but traveling the galaxy was still a travel speed feat and timing someone blinking is not that impressive to begin with, not for a speedsters at least. So it wasn't PIS that he did the feat, it's PIS that he didn't use it seconds after in the same comic? Or maybe he just isn't that fast in combat speed? Or maybe Heimdall is? It's not irrelevant to his striking power, all that speed is pretty irrelevant if you can't even take out characters that aren't even on the standard high-tier level.
    If he timed charging and hitting a guy to doing so across the span of a galaxy in an eyeblink, the idea that such isn't impressive is bizarre to say the least. Your basis for discounting this seems to mostly fall under "I'm going to just ignore the feat". When someone shows they can operate at a particular speed, then doesn't, yes, that it was PIS is. As though the Plot, Induces them to acting Stupidly, despite the capacity they have shown.

    When the entire argument being had is on Gladiator's speeds that he can operate at, yes, it's completely irrelevant to talk about how hard he hit or didn't.

    No it isn't really, because a fight can have dozens, maybe even hundreds or thousands of different punches, kicks thrown, dodges, grapples, etc... if an entire fight was in nanoseconds a character would significantly be faster than if he just preform one of those punches in a nanosecond.
    So your current argument is now literally "just because a character can move in nanoseconds doesn't mean he can move in nanoseconds". You feel that makes sense.

    Yea i don't like when things don't fall into line or are specifically stated to belong to different timelines, i guess i am weird like that. And? There are characters in different timelines that occupy the exact same role as they do in 616, my problem lies in the plenty of other things that don't fall into place or outright contradict the events of current main Marvel timeline, that no one knows how to explain.
    If you don't like when things are specifically stated to belong to other timelines, how do you reconcile that with the pile of scans showing it belonged to the specific main timeline? Your problem is that you want to ignore actual comic books, over an appendix. Your other problem is you want to ignore things shown in actual comic books over "well it was ignoring what had happened in some other comics." Doctor Strange was happening canonically, to comics. The Gladiator in it, was Gladiator. That the best you can do it "well, there were some chronology errors" is certainly interesting.

    Yea except he didn't outrace the photons, he literally jumps out of the blast itself and he gets burned to a crisp the second time he gets hit. Which i am not sure if the narration is referring he can outrace them in a literal race or does it mean he can see the photons and move out of their way before they hit him.
    So basically you are saying that despite the comic book itself explaining how he got out of the way of the blast, we should ignore how he got out of the way of the blast, because "you're not sure". Also, you understand that your second version would be again, pure semantics, if Gladiator simply outright saw the photons of the blast and moved out of their way? How do you think he would be able to dodge them otherwise? When that is what it is said he is doing?

    Well it's a good thing a fight doesn't consistent of who can usually count faster the grains of sand on the ground, Glads would probably win most of those competitions.
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  11. #71
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    I guess I'm confused as to the argument that Gladiator's speed feats are outliers? He literally has tons of speed feats, in fact him blitzing other characters, catching bullets and what not are abundant. I'm not up to speed on the FF stuff and the so called alternate universe stuff, but I know his other stuff sits just fine as far as combat/reaction speed.
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  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    I guess I'm confused as to the argument that Gladiator's speed feats are outliers? He literally has tons of speed feats, in fact him blitzing other characters, catching bullets and what not are abundant. I'm not up to speed on the FF stuff and the so called alternate universe stuff, but I know his other stuff sits just fine as far as combat/reaction speed.
    The argument isnt that he doesn't have incredible super speed. Just that none of it is SO incredible that it makes the time dilation feat a non outlier. I think.

    It's a big feat for Kallark. The only one that makes him competitive with Sufer or Wally iirc.

    Generally I feel the feat is legit personally.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    If he timed charging and hitting a guy to doing so across the span of a galaxy in an eyeblink, the idea that such isn't impressive is bizarre to say the least. Your basis for discounting this seems to mostly fall under "I'm going to just ignore the feat". When someone shows they can operate at a particular speed, then doesn't, yes, that it was PIS is. As though the Plot, Induces them to acting Stupidly, despite the capacity they have shown.
    The speed at which he did it is impressive as in he crossed a galaxy in an eye blink, the timing of it isn't, because it's still an eye blink, something regular people can react to. Once again you are making up my own positions for me, i am not ignoring the feat i am breaking it down, Gladiator can cross a galaxy in the blink of an eye is impressive, him reacting to something in a blink of an eye, not so much, but i never doubter Gladiators travel speed to begin with. Or maybe the plot gives them stupid feats something that they realistically can't or shouldn't be able to do and they don't replicate 99% of the time? Like that time Cho Hulk did a striking feat thats bajillion times more powerful than all of the energy in the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    When the entire argument being had is on Gladiator's speeds that he can operate at, yes, it's completely irrelevant to talk about how hard he hit or didn't.
    The entire argument isn't just about Gladiators speed, this thread is about Superman vs Gladiator, even if Gladiators speed is as impressive as you claim it to be, his striking leaves much wanting for him to have an actual impact on this fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    So your current argument is now literally "just because a character can move in nanoseconds doesn't mean he can move in nanoseconds". You feel that makes sense.
    No my argument was that he preformed a single feat in a nanonsecond, not dozens/hundreds or however mcuh in a nanosecond, you are shifting the goal post from the original point you made instead of just saying "i misspoke when i said he had a fight in a nanosecond, what i meant was he reacted in a nanosecond"(actually if we are going to be technical it wasn't a nanosecond but nanosecondS).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    If you don't like when things are specifically stated to belong to other timelines, how do you reconcile that with the pile of scans showing it belonged to the specific main timeline? Your problem is that you want to ignore actual comic books, over an appendix. Your other problem is you want to ignore things shown in actual comic books over "well it was ignoring what had happened in some other comics." Doctor Strange was happening canonically, to comics. The Gladiator in it, was Gladiator. That the best you can do it "well, there were some chronology errors" is certainly interesting.
    Because it didn't belong to the specific main time line it belonged to one potential future timeline, that's now been erased as a potential future altogether a potential future where Gladiator isn't the current one but a different one. Once again you are trying to build a strawman of me, i am not ignoring what happened in any of the comics, i am specifically referring to things happening in different timelines and certain things being questionable because they outright contradict the events of the rest of the Marvel by quite a significance the fact that you can just brush off that characters that have been dead for decades randomly being alive with no reason give, certain characters wearing different uniforms, Mephisto being outside of Vegas despite several other books prior to the events of Stranges comic and after showing him still being in Vegas speaks a lot to how much you are willing to let go and excuse for a character just so he could have some feats you made up your mind about him having. The fact that all of this doesn't even raise a little bit of a suspicion with you is telling.
    I honestly don't wanna hear anymore about "you ignore comics" in the same post that speaks about certain feats being "PIS".

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    So basically you are saying that despite the comic book itself explaining how he got out of the way of the blast, we should ignore how he got out of the way of the blast, because "you're not sure". Also, you understand that your second version would be again, pure semantics, if Gladiator simply outright saw the photons of the blast and moved out of their way? How do you think he would be able to dodge them otherwise? When that is what it is said he is doing?
    No i am saying the comic says he can outrace photons, not that he dodged them, because that same comic shows him inside the photon blast. That's once again not semantics and that's not the argument i am making, where does it says he saw the photons and dodged them? Why didn't he dodge them a second time? Oh right, it was probably PIS.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    "The standards of your board are optional to me, I'm going to completely ignore them, feats are meaningless unless I say they aren't"
    The standards of your board are that if character can process a billion stuff in their minds, he must also be able somehow apply that in combat by hitting someone a billion times or reacting to a billionth of a second, is that it? Damn i never knew so many geniuses were that fast, even guys like Apocolypse. Those are certainly interesting standards, i get now why these boards are so popular.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    I guess I'm confused as to the argument that Gladiator's speed feats are outliers? He literally has tons of speed feats, in fact him blitzing other characters, catching bullets and what not are abundant. I'm not up to speed on the FF stuff and the so called alternate universe stuff, but I know his other stuff sits just fine as far as combat/reaction speed.
    Kallark has a few decent speed feats, the problem is vast majority of those aren't FTL combat speed feats or anything close to it, catching bullets and blitzing other characters are things street tiers and bricks have done before and certainly falls quite short of speeding up your body so fast that only things that are lightspeed are capable of moving and then preforming every single task while doing that for an extended period of time, even things such as sitting and piloting a ship, pressing all the buttons, etc...

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    In regards to the Gladiator counting billions in seconds thing, I dont think the comic hinted at the feat being some formulaic act of genius like what you are referring to. He didnt scan a small portion and then plug it into an algorithm his mind was familiar with.

    IIRC, he literally just... counted to that number. Like 1, 2, 3..." etc. Locating and counting each thing.

    Anyone have a scan? I cant perfectly recall.
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