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  1. #121
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Yeah, Donna was a professional photographer, not a student. Didn't Terry first meet her when she was taking photos of Starfire, who was working as a model? He saw two young ladies, didn't know that they were only in their late teens at first. Donna was only ever seen at the college when visiting him.
    No, that's not when they first met. They did meet up one time when when Donna was photographing Kory, but they were already dating by then. As far as I know, this is all we know of Donna and Terry meeting (from Terry's first appearance, NTT #8). So they met before NTT formed.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post

    Danny Chase was a terrible mis-step. It didnít help that he looked similar to Cousin Oliver, either.
    Wolfman acknowledges he was burnt out after Crisis and should have stepped aside. That's editorial's fault for not seeing that the book was on a downward track -- which eventually would be a spiral.

    He also doesn't get why fans wanted Terra (a villain) back, but hated Danny. Well, comics is a visual medium -- and nothing about Danny was visually appealing. Even his powers were portrayed in a boring manner. Compare that to Terra -- who had a dynamic look -- and visually exciting powers -- with credit to Perez -- because Geo-Force over in Outsiders never became as hot a character.

    In regards to X-Men, they became fan favorites during the period where them being mutants was not a big story point. That didn't really become a plot point again until the Days of Future Past story.

  3. #123
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    He also doesn't get why fans wanted Terra (a villain) back, but hated Danny.
    Oh Marv, there are...so many reasons for why.

  4. #124
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    ...In regards to X-Men, they became fan favorites during the period where them being mutants was not a big story point. That didn't really become a plot point again until the Days of Future Past story.
    You raise something of a point. Arcs like the first Shiar story, and the long journey home from Antarctica didn't really get into their mutantness. However, their mutantness did underlie the plots some of the other arcs, like the Sentinel story that saw the transformation of Marvel Girl into Phoenix, or the long running subplot of the Dark Phoenix story. So their central theme was merely backdrop at least as often as it was plot-fuel in their early days.

    I get what you're saying too: NTT never really did find any hook for itself after the Judas Contract (and its epilogue stories), and the resolution of the Trigon story that launched the Baxter series. In contrast, if you look at X-Men of the time, that group underwent three or four serious transformations, ranging from heroes just trying to get back home, to victims fighting back against ruthless capitalist exploitation, to underground-near-extremists.

    I sometimes think that part of LoSH and NTT's power during that time was that they were so different than anything DC was putting out at the time. So VERY different than anything DC had been doing before those epic runs.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Oh Marv, there are...so many reasons for why.
    He never seemed to grasp that justifying everything Deathstroke did and pretending that he was misunderstood/ did nothing wrong was a bad idea as well.

  6. #126
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    You raise something of a point. Arcs like the first Shiar story, and the long journey home from Antarctica didn't really get into their mutantness. However, their mutantness did underlie the plots some of the other arcs, like the Sentinel story that saw the transformation of Marvel Girl into Phoenix, or the long running subplot of the Dark Phoenix story. So their central theme was merely backdrop at least as often as it was plot-fuel in their early days.

    I get what you're saying too: NTT never really did find any hook for itself after the Judas Contract (and its epilogue stories), and the resolution of the Trigon story that launched the Baxter series. In contrast, if you look at X-Men of the time, that group underwent three or four serious transformations, ranging from heroes just trying to get back home, to victims fighting back against ruthless capitalist exploitation, to underground-near-extremists.

    I sometimes think that part of LoSH and NTT's power during that time was that they were so different than anything DC was putting out at the time. So VERY different than anything DC had been doing before those epic runs.
    It had some dec Darkfire/Tamaran related stuff too but yeah, I agree.

  7. #127
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    He never seemed to grasp that justifying everything Deathstroke did and pretending that he was misunderstood/ did nothing wrong was a bad idea as well.
    That can't be blamed exclusively on Marv. DC Editorial kept going back and forth on whether or not Tara was inherently good or evil before settling, for a while, on her being good and being the real Terra 2 but then they killed her off and made her evil again during and after I believe, Final Crisis?

    And then in her sole Rebirth appearance over in Deathstroke's solo she was there for five minutes and all to whine about what Slade did to her and "prove" the mentality that Slade did nothing wrong correct, which was the most tone deaf thing that they could've done.

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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    That can't be blamed exclusively on Marv. DC Editorial kept going back and forth on whether or not Tara was inherently good or evil before settling, for a while, on her being good and being the real Terra 2 but then they killed her off and made her evil again during and after I believe, Final Crisis?

    And then in her sole Rebirth appearance over in Deathstroke's solo she was there for five minutes and all to whine about what Slade did to her and "prove" the mentality that Slade did nothing wrong correct, which was the most tone deaf thing that they could've done.
    Honestly, I think that Priest was calling out the 'Slade did nothing wrong' mentality. The whole point of his run was that Slade did everything wrong.

    New 52 was a step in the right direction for Terra's character, but the book she was in sucked.

  9. #129
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    That can't be blamed exclusively on Marv. DC Editorial kept going back and forth on whether or not Tara was inherently good or evil before settling, for a while, on her being good and being the real Terra 2 but then they killed her off and made her evil again during and after I believe, Final Crisis?

    And then in her sole Rebirth appearance over in Deathstroke's solo she was there for five minutes and all to whine about what Slade did to her and "prove" the mentality that Slade did nothing wrong correct, which was the most tone deaf thing that they could've done.
    Terra II was killed in the 52 World War III mini by Black Adam, she was part of that revolving door of Titans that Gar was leading during the timeskip. Final Crisis (one of the leads to it) did imply that Slade manipulated Terra and forced her to do what she did in a similar way to what he did to Cassandra Cain, but Blackest Night seems to go with she being evil, thougth Slade was already treated as a bastard by that point, so hey at least it was equal.

    Priest has Deathstroke said that what he did Terra was wrong and generally presented him as a mess up human being that is barely one step away from being an actual monster.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  10. #130
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Terra II was killed in the 52 World War III mini by Black Adam, she was part of that revolving door of Titans that Gar was leading during the timeskip. Final Crisis did imply that Slade manipulated Terra and forced to do what she did, but Blackest Night seems to go with she being evil, thougth Slade was already treated as a bastard by that point, so hey at least it was equal.

    Priest has Deathstroke said that what he did Terra was wrong and generally presented him as a mess up human being that is barely one step away from being an actual monster.
    Wintergreen called him out for how bad it was in Priest's run as well.

    I think Priest also presented her as more sympathetic than Perez/Wolfman did in the original comics while still not contradicting them too much.

  11. #131
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Wintergreen called him out for how bad it was in Priest's run as well.

    I think Priest also presented her as more sympathetic than Perez/Wolfman did in the original comics while still not contradicting them too much.
    For what i understand the problem with Deathstroke in NTT was the conflicting visions between Wolfman and Perez, the first one thougth that Slade "Code of Honor" was genuine while the later thougth that it was just a bunch of bullshit to hide the bastard that he is, i think that Priest did a good balance between those two ideas, when Slade does have a code and is genuine...but he is not holding on to it because he is some noble parangon of a man, but someone that is just barely keeping it together and really afraid of going to the deep end.

    Honestly, when i think of Priest Deathstroke, he come across as an evil Wolverine or at least a darker take on his characther concept.
    Last edited by TheCape; 08-09-2020 at 02:40 PM.
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  12. #132
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    It's admittedly been a bit since I read the Defiance arc of Deathstroke, but I mean - in the first issue alone he has Terra coming in and saying that backstabbing is what she does while smoking a cigarette in an obviously antagonistic pose.

    That's not what the character needs and honestly, not what people want from her but I don't think this is the thread to discuss what to do with her, really.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  13. #133
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    It's admittedly been a bit since I read the Defiance arc of Deathstroke, but I mean - in the first issue alone he has Terra coming in and saying that backstabbing is what she does while smoking a cigarette in an obviously antagonistic pose.

    That's not what the character needs and honestly, not what people want from her but I don't think this is the thread to discuss what to do with her, really.
    I mean...that's straight up what she did in the NTT run. What else do people really want or expect for her?

    The issue isn't really that Terra is bad (she was), just that Slade was equally bad if not worse, and should be written as such. Which Priest did.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Wintergreen called him out for how bad it was in Priest's run as well.

    I think Priest also presented her as more sympathetic than Perez/Wolfman did in the original comics while still not contradicting them too much.
    I mean, that is not that difficult. Just don't make an allegory of her evilness in the last moments of her death.

  15. #135
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I mean...that's straight up what she did in the NTT run. What else do people really want or expect for her?

    The issue isn't really that Terra is bad (she was), just that Slade was equally bad if not worse, and should be written as such. Which Priest did.
    Closer to the 2003 cartoon take as a tragic villain?.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
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