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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    Ah, but the Titans also have fundamental themes at their core that go to their identities as a team. They are the younger generation who will one day replace the old and who clash with the generation that came before them. And while the X-Men does a better job of sticking to their central tenant, that is still a pretty universal theme: one that seems to enter the national zeitgeist almost every few years. Think about all the animus that has been thrown the way of the Millennials or Gen Z the past few years.



    You're addressing the symptom, not the cause. The X-Men characters can be popular as individuals...because they weren't mismanaged and didn't decline in popularity like the other two franchises. Though, I mean, I think enough people actually are fans of Starfire, Raven, Cyborg, and Beast Boy that you could say they're popular among the general public, if only because of the animated series from the mid-2000s

    I don't agree with that because even in their heyday, there were no members of the NTT or LSH that were as breakout-popular as Wolverine, Gambit, Rogue, etc. And, I do think that a lot of the X-Men after Claremont left WERE mismanaged, but they were already on such a solid foundation that it didn't matter.

    In contrast, by the early 1990s, both NTT and Legion were past their primes -- even though Wolfman and Giffen were still on the books. X-Men could sustain sales without Claremont, but without Perez and Levitz, NTT and LSH really hit the skids.

    Of course, we also have to acknowledge that the fallout from Crisis on Infinite Earths really ransacked the continuity of BOTH of these former flagship DC books. That, combined with unpopular changes of directions and loss of important talent behind-the-scenes, of course.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Not reading all these pages, but my two cents....

    I think there's a lot of reasons that both franchises have fallen. Poor creative teams and creative choices, lack of consistency, lack of investment.....there's rarely just one or two big reasons a IP fails, it's usually a lot of small problems which, on their own, aren't a big deal but when taken together at the same time becomes a major hurdle.

    I think the Legion has suffered greatly from the weird paradox of DC's increased focus on, but inability to maintain, continuity. Back in the day when continuity didn't matter as much, it was easy for the Legion to exist in their own bubble, but connections to Clark Kent helped make them feel like they were still part of the DC tapestry. But continuity hasn't been stable since the Crisis while at the same time its become a bigger focus for DC and readers both, and that's had a big impact on the Legion. Was Clark a part of their roster or not? How does it affect Mon-El/Valor, Brainiac 5, Laurel Kent, etc? Lots of changes to the present day DCU end up influencing the Legion, and these are changes the Legion itself has no real control over.

    And the market continues to narrow, focusing more and more on only the books that "matter" and big Events. It's hard for the Legion to feel important when they're a thousand years removed from everything happening in the rest of DC's titles.

    And I think the NTT has suffered from a lack of direction. DC doesn't seem to know what the Titans are. Are they the team the kids and sidekicks join and then graduate from, or are the Titans a specific group of 20-somethings? DC has tried to have their cake and eat it too, by saying the Titans are both things, but that's only served to confuse and muddy the team's purpose and reason for being. It's contributed to the 20-somethings being treated more like sidekicks or junior heroes and the teenagers acting like the Titans are a boot camp for joining the League. Nobody has benefited here.

    And as the hierarchy of DC becomes more and more obvious and set in stone and the market focuses on what "matters," that's left the Titans in a position where readers assume they'll never be as important or big as their League mentors.

    Both franchises rarely get high-end creative teams, they shift focus on a regular basis, rarely get to shine in Events.....when DC treats these teams as a bunch of "also-rans" is it any surprise when readers start acting the same way?
    Really good analysis.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comic-Reader Lad View Post
    I don't agree with that because even in their heyday, there were no members of the NTT or LSH that were as breakout-popular as Wolverine, Gambit, Rogue, etc. And, I do think that a lot of the X-Men after Claremont left WERE mismanaged, but they were already on such a solid foundation that it didn't matter.
    Well, to be fair, no other X-Man besides Wolverine has been able to carve out a lasting solo career. I wouldn't even say that Gambit or Rogue qualify nowadays, but neither do Cyclops or Jean Grey or Nightcrawler or Storm. They're iconic, for sure. But those characters are iconic for being X-Men. And maybe in the 90s, they could have headlined their own series and been at the center of their own franchises, but probably not today, even with the X-Men's resurgence.

    In contrast, by the early 1990s, both NTT and Legion were past their primes -- even though Wolfman and Giffen were still on the books. X-Men could sustain sales without Claremont, but without Perez and Levitz, NTT and LSH really hit the skids.

    Of course, we also have to acknowledge that the fallout from Crisis on Infinite Earths really ransacked the continuity of BOTH of these former flagship DC books. That, combined with unpopular changes of directions and loss of important talent behind-the-scenes, of course.
    Ding ding ding. Ya kinda hit the nail on the head. As I said earlier, by the early 1990s, DC had already made moves to remove the Titans' key characters from the roster.

    But you're right in that the spinoff Titans teams never really made the same impact as teams like the New Mutants or X-Factor. So, because the X-Men franchise went the route of creating their own unique "X-Men brand" characters and concepts, they were able to create new hooks into the franchise. With the Titans, however, DC eventually decided to fold the respective characters back into the franchises from which they came and, while that could be seen as a good move for those franchises, it did damage the Titans. Cyborg, Raven, Beast Boy, and Starfire were great characters, but they couldn't keep the team going on their own. And the lack of new characters that caught on in any significant way coupled with DC's just inherent need to subjegate them to the League sort of spelled the end.

    However, the central question of the thread is "were the Titans and Legion just products of their time?" And to that I'd have to say no, at least when it comes to the Titans. The Titans' central draw is just as relevant today as it was when they were at their peak: a younger generation coming into their own. It's only that I think DC took the wrong lesson from their success and made them into "the team for sidekicks" when the point of the Titans was that they were no longer sidekicks and some of them never had been. In other words, the Titans became less about characters specifically created for the Titans team/franchise and became about "how can we work Tim Drake, Superboy, or Batgirl onto the team?"
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 08-06-2020 at 10:11 PM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    This was several years before the Crisis - it wasn't planned yet.
    The popularity of the Titans honestly did save Dick from going back to the status quo. Jason was basically a Dick clone. Superman and Wonder Woman basically started from scratch. Green Lantern effectively started from scratch but kept elements that enabled Guy and John to be around.

    Flash and Batman didn’t have that much of an issue. Flash was mostly because Barry had kinda gotten railroaded in Trial of the Flash and Crisis was his happy ending and they could start fresh with Wally. Batman still have Bruce a new origin and honestly probably would have mostly started over similar to Superman if not for the fact that keeping Dick as Nightwing to maintain the Titans was important. The Titans I think just got done or were still in the middle of their big Trigon storyline when Crisis started and the book was still on fire.

    Honestly if it wasn’t for the NTT being so popular and Dick just becoming Nightwing, totally could have seen the reboot wiping out Jason Todd and rebooting Batman completely to start over fresh there as well and they could get him back to the old status quo. And if Crisis happened 5 years later when Titans cooled down, could have seen the same thing.

    But it didn’t and they wanted to keep a popular title going so they kept Dick as an adult who became Nightwing and it got to become a status quo that the media took too and now it’s kind of cornerstone and we got several other Robins out of the deal

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    Yeah. Dick was made Nightwing, because Batman editorial wants to use Robin mantle again. So, Dick becoming Nightwing was made primarily for Batman convenience.

    This decision made Robin a transitory sidekick identity. Before that, the idea that Dick could be Robin permanently as an adult was not far-fetched.
    In fact in Earth 2, Dick was Robin as an adult. They spruced up his costume a bit to make it less kiddy and it worked fine. At the time the idea was that Robin was just Dick’s superhero identity and he could easily grow up and be more independent and could still be Robin as an adult the same way Superboy could just age into Superman.

    The Batman line wanting a Robin is the only reason Dick transitioned to Nightwing. Then in the mid to late 2000’s Jason came back as Red Hood and Tim got moved to Red Robin (and future stories implied Damian could grow up to be Batman) and I think it solidified the idea that Robin was some transitional sidekick role that you took until you graduated. But before 1984.... yeah Robin was just the identity Dick had and if he stayed Robin forever that was just the not unexpected. However I do think if he stated Robin, odds are he would have been reverted someday after the Titans stopped being popular

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comic-Reader Lad View Post
    Some people brought up the X-Men, but while NTT and LSH were popular in the 1980s, they don't have the fundamental gravitas at their cores that X-Men does.

    The X-Men has the persecuted minority angle at its core that can withstand years of bad stories and directions.

    With NTT and LSH, all of the best stories have already been told with those characters, so all the later revamps tried to do was "recapture the magic" -- in other words "rehash the past." Even worse, when they weren't rehashing the past, the new stuff they were coming up with wasn't as interesting.

    Another important factor is that, while the X-Men characters are a team, there have been several of them that have broken out and become fan favorites as individuals. Wolverine is the most obvious, but also Rogue, Gambit, Kitty, Storm, Phoenix, Deadpool, Cable, and others. No, most of them can't support a solo book for very long, but fans do like seeing them together and having writers explore their pasts.

    Whereas, none of the individual Teen Titans or Legionnaires have achieved that kind of fame on an individual level. No one really goes apeshit over Star Boy or Pantha -- not even Cyborg. It's true that Starfire, Raven, and Changeling did drive storylines in the early years of the series, but Wolfman and Levitz really didn't deep dive into the characters and give them fully fleshed out backgrounds the way Claremont did with the X-Men.

    I think that's where NTT and LSH eventually lost steam. They were more plot driven than X-Men. Even when X-Men was uninteresting or downright bad in terms of storylines, the depth of the characters relationships with each other kept readers coming back. They became more real to their fans than the NTT or LSH did to theirs, and so when the direction was unpopular or the storylines were uninspired, fans were more willing to bail.
    Titans was a legacy team. That’s a big difference. I mean I would argue Nightwing and Wally West’s Flash (and lets be blunt, Wally despite having Barry’s mantle had a 20 year run on the hook where it was almost all about how he was a legacy) are probably as popular as any X-Men that isn’t named Wolverine.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    I give Perez a lot of credit for the success of the Titans -- I'd say 60% opposed to 40% on Wolfman's part -- because Perez also co-plotted -- and is one of the best artists of the Bronze Age.

    BUT

    Jericho was a huge disappointment. Horrible character design, boring power set, and he came across as gay but they made him a lady's man going against type. Bringing in almost any of the classic Titans (always liked Mal as Guardian and Karen/Bumblebee) would have been the preferred option.
    What was wrong with that?

    And bringing in the classic Titans wouldn't have done the books any favors when it had failed in the past with them.

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    The main problem both have is chasing the past. With the Legion it was bring back past writers while with the Titans it is always trying yo recreate the Wolfman/Perez run. The last time the Legion was really hot was when they put fresh new talent on the series with DnA with Copiel on art. Then they started chasing the past by bringing back Waid for his horribly received Threeboot. Then when that failed they panicked and brought back Jim Shooter to try and salvage the Threeboot. Then they scrapped the Threeboot altogether and brought back Levitz to try and save the franchise when it was ptetty clear his best writing days were behind him. This lead to the cancelation. Then instead of getting some fresh talent like Hickman who expressed interest in doing the book they get Bendis whos best days are way behind him, and who is a very divisive writer and let him just crap all over Legion history.

  9. #84
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    The Titans trying to recreate the Wolfman/Perez run is actually a misconception. Not that they don’t chase the past, but of the modern reboots saw them trying to force the Fab five era in with the Wolfman/Perez run, or trying to emulate Wolfman/Perez run with a completely different gen of characters. Even the last Titans attempt went back to the Fab 5 JL Jr. well, not NTT. Re-pasting parts of NTT onto the Fab 5. But rarely do we actually see reunions of just the actual popular NTT cast.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 08-07-2020 at 11:03 AM.

  10. #85
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    However, the central question of the thread is "were the Titans and Legion just products of their time?" And to that I'd have to say no, at least when it comes to the Titans.
    I'd say that's true of the Legion as well.

    The Titans are, generally, "youth in revolt." They're the young heroes who don't want to just follow in the footsteps of their mentors and be good little, unquestioning soldiers, they want to do things their own way. That's a theme that never goes out of style, it just changes a little to fit whatever the current young generation is doing. The Legion is actually cut from a very similar cloth, but with the added element of the "bright, hopeful future" themes, which again, doesn't go out of style so much as it just evolves with the rest of us.

    They're both classic, timeless themes. The only thing holding them back is DC itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The Titans trying to recreate the Wolfman/Perez run is actually a misconception. Not that they don’t chase the past, but of of the modern reboots saw them trying to force the Fab five era in with the Wolfman/Perez run
    That's always struck me as odd. As I understand it the Fab5 era was largely a failure that would've been long forgotten today had Wolfman not taken the basic teen team premise and name for his book in the 80's. Why does DC keep going back to this? There's not much outcry for Hawk and Dove, even less for Gnnark.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That's always struck me as odd. As I understand it the Fab5 era was largely a failure that would've been long forgotten today had Wolfman not taken the basic teen team premise and name for his book in the 80's. Why does DC keep going back to this? There's not much outcry for Hawk and Dove, even less for Gnnark.
    They hardly "keep" going back to Hank, Dove and Gnnark. This last run specifically acknowledged them as a thing. Dick, Donna and Wally are part of the iconic run, Roy and Garth are seen as their closest friends amongst the Titans. Wolfman himself is responsible for Jericho, Raven and Terra of the more iconic runs being unavailable for quite some time. And the others aren't legacies so they don't have replacements that fill out the new Teen Titans.

  12. #87
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    That's always struck me as odd. As I understand it the Fab5 era was largely a failure that would've been long forgotten today had Wolfman not taken the basic teen team premise and name for his book in the 80's.
    More than being a failure, it never really existed. It's more an idea/myth retconned into the past. But back then you didn't generally have all five of them at once. Roy wasn't there at first, and then Garth wasn't. And then we moved onto the expanded cast in the 1970s.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comic-Reader Lad View Post

    Of course, we also have to acknowledge that the fallout from Crisis on Infinite Earths really ransacked the continuity of BOTH of these former flagship DC books. That, combined with unpopular changes of directions and loss of important talent behind-the-scenes, of course.
    Some DC editors don't get how much they've hobbled all of their books with constant revisions to history. At least with X-men, you know what happened in the very issue form Stan Lee and Jack Kirby is still relevant today. Legion stories from new 52 aren't even relevant now. Difficult to care about any of the stories long-term -- when you know that they could be irrelevant at any point in the future. Marvel will always have that over DC.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What was wrong with that?

    And bringing in the classic Titans wouldn't have done the books any favors when it had failed in the past with them.
    It just didn't ring true to me. I found it difficult to believe. Then again, I found it difficult to believe that Donna Troy would hook up with a middle aged loser (this was Wolfman's fantasy, I guess). They were really pushing hard with that character -- and he just failed to connect with the audience.

    Classic characters are usually more accepted than new ones. I know that's now always the case, but they have history and even if they failed in the past, they can find new audiences. X-Men brought back their old members -- in fact, they pretty much took control of them so they couldn't be used elsewhere.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    The main problem both have is chasing the past. With the Legion it was bring back past writers while with the Titans it is always trying yo recreate the Wolfman/Perez run. The last time the Legion was really hot was when they put fresh new talent on the series with DnA with Copiel on art.

    That run may have been critically acclaimed, but it was by no means -- hot! The Legion probably really hasn't been hot since the early to mid 80s.

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