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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    As someone who is going back and collecting the pre-Crisis Titans run, I can tell you it hasn't aged well. There are all kinds of dated references that stand out today. Wolfman was not the writer then that he is today. Could they update them for today and make it work? Sure. Have they? Not really. I don't see the NTT lineup catching on today like it did then. And you have characters like Conner and Tim that people would wonder why they aren't on the team. Dick and Donna are of a specific generation that were considered the first sidekicks. We've had at least two since then. They can't really be the Teen Titans anymore unless you are starting from scratch.

    As for the Legion, IDK how you could make that work. Technology insures that the "future" of a thousand years from now is always changing. I'm kind of of the opinion it might be time to drop them. Go back and look at the Legion from the 1960s and the Legion of today and tell me that things haven't changed.
    The NTT lineup would catch on today if DC actually bothered to put in an effort and retool their characters( most of them have been so damaged and derailed by writers, an overhaul is absolutely necessary).

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Wolfman's weird obsession with trying to justify Deathstroke turned off a lot of people. It also didn't help that the quality of stories declined after Perez left.
    To be fair, Rose is the only character Wolfman introduced in that era that proved to have any staying power.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    No. The enduring success of the Teen Titans/Teen Titans Go cartoon as well as the decent popularity of the Titans TV show prove otherwise.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  4. #19
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    To be fair, Rose is the only character Wolfman introduced in that era that proved to have any staying power.
    I don't think it helps that after Byrne left, Claremont still created or brought in characters like Rogue, Rachel, Psylocke, Gambit, Jubilee and the New Mutants.
    In comparison, post-Perez Wolfman gave us...Danny Chase, Azrael, Kole (to be killed off), Pantha and Wildebeest and the Team Titans. They don't compare favorably to the chemistry of the Fab Five + NTT crew or what the X-Men were introducing.

  5. #20
    Fantastic Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    I was looking at some Gabriel Picolo art (link below) and realized how easy it would be for a writer to modernize these characters, yet no one seems willing to do so. The other option is to let these characters graduate and have an impact on the larger DCU, but no one is willing to do that either.

    https://rearfront.com/artist-revampe...-modern-touch/

  6. #21
    Incredible Member Samm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I don't think it helps that after Byrne left, Claremont still created or brought in characters like Rogue, Rachel, Psylocke, Gambit, Jubilee and the New Mutants.
    In comparison, post-Perez Wolfman gave us...Danny Chase, Azrael, Kole (to be killed off), Pantha and Wildebeest and the Team Titans. They don't compare favorably to the chemistry of the Fab Five + NTT crew or what the X-Men were introducing.
    After the NTT era I donít think any of the new additions stuck, besides Rose Wilson. They had to bring in the 4 Young Justice members to invigorate the franchise, though if you look at the most popular members added around that time (Damian, Blue Beetle, Static, Me Martian), they all came from outside the TT books, a part from Megan.

    Another problem is that they added way too many sidekicks to the franchise. The Fab 5 had the likes of Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, Bumblebee, Terra...etc to balance things out. Who balances out the YJ4, Robin and Miss Martian? Blue Beetle and Static are popular but thatís still only two non sidekicks. They are probably the only non sidekicks in the lineup too and thatís a problem! Solstice and Bunker didnít seem to stick.

    Donít even get me started on the current lineup with even more sidekicks

  7. #22
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    I think Crisis On Infinite Earths, as great as it was, hurt both of those books.

    Donna Troy has never been the same since. Her origin constantly changes and she has no identity.

    And by removing Superboy as the inspiration of the Legion, it never did fully recover. Superboy, and to a lesser extent Supergirl, were a major part of Legion history that they can't fill with anyone else IMO.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    After the NTT era I don’t think any of the new additions stuck, besides Rose Wilson. They had to bring in the 4 Young Justice members to invigorate the franchise, though if you look at the most popular members added around that time (Damian, Blue Beetle, Static, Me Martian), they all came from outside the TT books, a part from Megan.

    Another problem is that they added way too many sidekicks to the franchise. The Fab 5 had the likes of Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, Bumblebee, Terra...etc to balance things out. Who balances out the YJ4, Robin and Miss Martian? Blue Beetle and Static are popular but that’s still only two non sidekicks. They are probably the only non sidekicks in the lineup too and that’s a problem! Solstice and Bunker didn’t seem to stick.

    Don’t even get me started on the current lineup with even more sidekicks
    The only other non sidekick character who gained traction during Tim's time was Kid Devil and they killed him off. The era before New 52 was awful, too many characters joined the team, most of them for killed off and those who didn't die for derailed.

    To be fair the current TT lineup only has three sidekicks. Everyone else is new. The problem with the current lineup has nothing to do with the amount of sidekicks though.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    I think Crisis On Infinite Earths, as great as it was, hurt both of those books.

    Donna Troy has never been the same since. Her origin constantly changes and she has no identity.

    And by removing Superboy as the inspiration of the Legion, it never did fully recover. Superboy, and to a lesser extent Supergirl, were a major part of Legion history that they can't fill with anyone else IMO.
    Donna is the easiest character to fix, all DC has to do is say she's Wonder Woman's adopted sister and STICK TO THAT ORIGIN!!! Sometimes simplicity is the best solution.

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    I think Crisis On Infinite Earths, as great as it was, hurt both of those books.

    Donna Troy has never been the same since. Her origin constantly changes and she has no identity.

    And by removing Superboy as the inspiration of the Legion, it never did fully recover. Superboy, and to a lesser extent Supergirl, were a major part of Legion history that they can't fill with anyone else IMO.
    Is definetly true for the Legion, but i don't think that if affected NTT that much, Wolfman and Perez gaver a new origin that worked well enougth, but for some reason Byrne couldn't leave it alone and has to do something more. The problems with that title had more to do with Wolfman's decreasing quality and Perez leaving.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
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  11. #26
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samm View Post
    After the NTT era I don’t think any of the new additions stuck, besides Rose Wilson. They had to bring in the 4 Young Justice members to invigorate the franchise, though if you look at the most popular members added around that time (Damian, Blue Beetle, Static, Me Martian), they all came from outside the TT books, a part from Megan.

    Another problem is that they added way too many sidekicks to the franchise. The Fab 5 had the likes of Cyborg, Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy, Bumblebee, Terra...etc to balance things out. Who balances out the YJ4, Robin and Miss Martian? Blue Beetle and Static are popular but that’s still only two non sidekicks. They are probably the only non sidekicks in the lineup too and that’s a problem! Solstice and Bunker didn’t seem to stick.

    Don’t even get me started on the current lineup with even more sidekicks
    Bart Allen was on the Titans with Rose before Young Justice existed, Wolfman just didn't create him.

  12. #27
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony View Post
    Being Sidekicks in a universe where the real heroes don't age out and retire puts a glass ceiling on them, on top of which other writers want to make their pet sidekicks up and be the focus. It's why we have 5 Robins, several Wondergirls, and Superboys, and Bruce Clark and Diana still fill the pages of Superman Batman and Wonder Woman. It's a problem unique to DC and pretty out of hand at this point.
    There's only two Wonder Girls. Donna and Cassie. Damian's generation doesn't have one, which is why DCeased de-aged Cassie and had her join the Super Sons in the new Trinity.
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  13. #28
    DC Enthusiast Tony's Avatar
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    I was thinking of the John Byrne and Geoff Johns versions of Cassie as 2 different ones, my old brain at work.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    There is also the fact that the X-Men have had many "seismic shifts": NTT #1 is basically the equivalent of Giant Size X-Men #1, but it doesn't have any equivalents to Jim Lee's overhaul, New X-Men or the current HoX/PoX. And it desperately needs stuff like that, as even the X-Men have fallen into ruts in between those shifts.
    I would consider the Geoff Johns relaunch in the early 2000s an equivalent.

  15. #30
    Incredible Member Adset's Avatar
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    I agree with a lot of the posts already made. I liken it to Geoff Johns on Green Lantern, or to a lesser extent maybe Simonsonís Thor or Mark Waidís Flash, where a long-running series gains huge traction and dominates the comic world for a brief period of time. When the chief creative force behind that acclaim leaves, the series eventually (and in some cases quickly) plods back to the mean.

    Thatís not so say these series havenít had great runs before or after said rock star status, the confluence of events have just never come together like they did when those particular runs were darlings of the industry.

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