LoSH and NTT: Creatures Of Their Time?

[mathew101281]

There are very few superheroes and superhero teams that are consistently popular from decade to decade. Most characters are flashes in the pan, never rising above bit players in the shared universe. A slightly more prestigious group are the characters that rollacoster between extreme heights of popularity (useally when a star writer gets on the book) and extreme lows. To me their are really only three or so franchises in the whole superhero genre that are consistant sellers.

Batman, Superman, Spiderman. Most of the other big characters that you can name are really in the rollercoaster category.

[SiegePerilous02]

I would consider the Geoff Johns relaunch in the early 2000s an equivalent.

Eh, I wouldn't agree. It didn't really have any lasting impact for the franchise, not in the way that Jim Lee and Grant Morrison did for the X-Men and Hickman likely will as well. It didn't shake anything up besides swapping in new versions of Robin, Wonder Girl and Kid Flash to be like the NTT days, and added Superboy.

[Adekis]

I think the Legion was really hurt by that second Waid reboot, even though in terms of content it's initially pretty solid. Superman and a lot of other characters managed to survive a reboot, and so did the Legion, but rebooting them again so soon after D&A left - what a waste. The rest of DC wouldn't get a hard reboot for another six years after that point. Not to mention that the New 52 was kind of a mess for them - weren't there like three different irreconcilable versions of the team running around at the same time? Which is probably not an insurmountable issue, but it's hard, I'd suggest, for building a brand that's historically not done well with retcons and reboots, in terms of sort of swimming in them.

[Samm]

Eh, I wouldn't agree. It didn't really have any lasting impact for the franchise, not in the way that Jim Lee and Grant Morrison did for the X-Men and Hickman likely will as well. It didn't shake anything up besides swapping in new versions of Robin, Wonder Girl and Kid Flash to be like the NTT days, and added Superboy.

It made Blue Beetle, Static, Damian Wayne and Miss Martian members though so that counts for something.

[Harpsikord]

I mean, you have to consider that the New Teen Titans specifically are the most popular Titans in no small part due to the cartoon that was released in the mid-aughts. Those are the Titans that people have attachments to now, and those kids are also the fans that are beginning to break into writing.

We're due for the NTT Titans, at the very least, getting their due.

[Twice-named]

Eh, I wouldn't agree. It didn't really have any lasting impact for the franchise, not in the way that Jim Lee and Grant Morrison did for the X-Men and Hickman likely will as well. It didn't shake anything up besides swapping in new versions of Robin, Wonder Girl and Kid Flash to be like the NTT days, and added Superboy.

It brought the franchise back to life. It made the franchise the most popular it’d been since the NTT’s heyday. Though, like NTT, it waned over time.

[The no face guy]

Seems like The Legion and The Titans enjoyed their greatest success in the 1980s. It's been a rollercoaster for both of them ever since.

Is that a factor of the Silver Age kids audience coming of age with them? If not, what?

Legion of Super Heroes - too many timeline reboots
Titans/Teen Titans - A lack of consistency with the roster everytime it was rebooted. (Revolving door of new squads)

[titanfan]

This is true, I think they stayed big much longer, but when they finally fell they never recovered. Somewhere in the middle of the Baxter series they took a nosedive in sales.

The NTT went through an unheard of period of team stability which I think hurt the book. The characters were too popular--there was no danger and it felt like the cast had the same roster for like 10 years. (With Danny Chase coming and going and Nightwing being taken by the Bat Books for awhile)

If something like "Titans Hunt" had come along when Marv was going through his writer's block, I think the series could have retained popularity.

[SiegePerilous02]

It made Blue Beetle, Static, Damian Wayne and Miss Martian members though so that counts for something.

It brought the franchise back to life. It made the franchise the most popular it’d been since the NTT’s heyday. Though, like NTT, it waned over time.

There is these things, but that also contributes a bit to the problem. The confusion as to what the Titans should be. NTT was about building the Titans up to be peers of the JL, the sidekicks were limited to Dick, Wally and Donna (with Roy and Garth popping in from time to time), and gradually moving them away from their former sidekick roles to adult identities.

Putting the likes of the YJ4, Miss Martian and Damian in the group and increasing the JL associations reinforces the belief that it should primarily be a training ground for sidekicks/teen heroes, thus making it look bad that Dick's generation haven't moved on from it yet. If they are the equivalent of the X-Men, Cyclops generally isn't graduating to the Avengers while Cyclops Boy takes over his spot in the X-Men. Even the New Mutants had their own identities that they could retain if they graduated to full fledged X-Men.

[Agent Z]

The Titans have more in common with Marvel's New Warriors anyway.

[El_Gato]

There is these things, but that also contributes a bit to the problem. The confusion as to what the Titans should be. NTT was about building the Titans up to be peers of the JL, the sidekicks were limited to Dick, Wally and Donna (with Roy and Garth popping in from time to time), and gradually moving them away from their former sidekick roles to adult identities.

Putting the likes of the YJ4, Miss Martian and Damian in the group and increasing the JL associations reinforces the belief that it should primarily be a training ground for sidekicks/teen heroes, thus making it look bad that Dick's generation haven't moved on from it yet. If they are the equivalent of the X-Men, Cyclops generally isn't graduating to the Avengers while Cyclops Boy takes over his spot in the X-Men. Even the New Mutants had their own identities that they could retain if they graduated to full fledged X-Men.

I agree with this. DC messed up big time when they included the YJ generation with the Titans. It set a precedent that the Titans are a stepping stone team to the JL and are a second rate sidekick team. Tim, Cassie, Conner, and Bart should have never joined the Teen Titans and that 2003 series should have just been a new YouNg Justice book since it was nothing but sidekicks, a part from Blue Beetle, Static and Soltice. What they should have done was develop the 90’s additions more and add in the likes of Jaime, Virgil, Kiran and Miguel along the way, then continued it with the likes of Dijin and Roundhouse. The Fab 5 should have been the only sidekicks, maybe Supergirl and Kyle eventually as well.

[Digifiend]

The Titans have more in common with Marvel's New Warriors anyway.

Yeah, both Marvel and DC have three generations of teen heroes. Excluding the X-Men, I'd count Nightwing's Titans as being equivalent to the New Warriors (NW launched when New Titans was running), Young Justice as being equivalent to the Young Avengers (though the YA actually debuted two years after the original YJ merged into the Teen Titans), and Damian's Teen Titans as being equivalent to Champions (which launched at about the same time as Rebirth Teen Titans).

[kcekada]

Seems like The Legion and The Titans enjoyed their greatest success in the 1980s. It's been a rollercoaster for both of them ever since.

Is that a factor of the Silver Age kids audience coming of age with them? If not, what?

Constant revisions and introduction of multiple legacies hasn't help. And with the original members of Titans -- they are now only a few years younger than their mentors. It's just a mess.

[kcekada]

Simple fix would be Teen Titans are the kids -- training to be Titans. Titans should be the X-men -- not bowing down to the aholes in the JLA. Young Justice -- I guess could be a separate thing for those who want to be in the JLA, Jr, but wouldn't most kids finds prefer going the Titans route than the stodgy JLA route?

Legion just hasn't had a great dynamic in decades. The new book make eventually make a mark, but it's Bendis -- and despite a few good ideas, I don't think he does well on team books.

[Digifiend]

That's what YJ always was, kids being trained by the JLA. In the original version, they were being looked after by Red Tornado and used the original JLA headquarters at Happy Harbor. In the current one, they've been made an official Young Justice League, with the Wonder Twins serving as their liaison to the main JL the same way Miss Martian did for Nightwing's Titans recently.