View Poll Results: Do you want Tim to be Robin again?

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  • Yes

    30 23.81%
  • No

    72 57.14%
  • Depends

    24 19.05%
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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    The family has Peter Parker types Duke and Dick.
    Tim has never been the heart of the family.
    I'm not even going to touch the line about A reset giving Tim a fresh slate stabilising the Gotham verse because OMG!

    The most successful Robin in decades is the TTGo Robin. He is the face of the Brand and has been since that show blew up. He is the one that represents Robin to the next generation of fans.

    You don't get to decide what the Brand representation looks like. The Market dictates that and I'm not even talking about the comics Market.

    Also Stable. Tim hasn't been stable for a while now. Are we forgetting RR with unstable Tim? Are we forgetting Rebirth Tim's blueprints for a police state and the fact that he was just fine with working with a fascist?

    If you want a stable peter Parker type in Robin colours then Duke is the only that fits that for a while now.

    Tim does nothing for Robin. He does nothing for the Bat family. He does nothing for the Gotham verse.

    These all function without him. In reality most times he is adapted out that's how little he adds.
    Well he was of course the heart of the Bat-books in the 90s as I said during the O'Neil editorial years. He was the POV character in Detective Comics during his run, plus the Robin book (and any of the Dixon comics of that era which was most of the Bat books for a time). TTGO is Dick but never referred to as such, he's just "Robin" but his costume is the Tim one. It's silly because these aren't really different people, and DC doesn't want them to be. They just want "Robin." Unfortunately for the brand, you have all of these characters with histories and each has their own little fiefdom of fanatics.

    What's the point of Robin? Not the in-universe explanation for the character origins. What's the point of having Robin the character?
    Last edited by gregpersons; 08-07-2020 at 03:53 AM.

  2. #107
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    The Teen Titans Go costume is not any more Tim's because he wears pants than Tim's costume is Dick's because he wears green gloves. It's just a modernization of the Robin costume.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    The Teen Titans Go costume is not any more Tim's because he wears pants than Tim's costume is Dick's because he wears green gloves. It's just a modernization of the Robin costume.
    That's my point. And the "tech savvy Robin" is Tim because he comes from the 90s. Grayson is an acrobat because it was the 30s. Tim, Jason, Duke, Dick are just names that could be the real kid behind Robin. The question it seems to me is, can you have multiple Robins? And if you can, is there a line for how many is too many, and where is it?

    What do the fans want "Robin" to be? Is it one person or multiple?

    For me, I already stated my preference; I'd make them all gothic non-mutant X-Men and not fuss about the number so much as justifying each different person's role and function.
    Last edited by gregpersons; 08-07-2020 at 03:58 AM.

  4. #109
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Well he was of course the heart of the Bat-books in the 90s as I said during the O'Neil editorial years. He was the POV character in Detective Comics during his run, plus the Robin book (and any of the Dixon comics of that era which was most of the Bat books for a time). TTGO is Dick but never referred to as such, he's just "Robin" but his costume is the Tim one. It's silly because these aren't really different people, and DC doesn't want them to be. They just want "Robin." Unfortunately for the brand, you have all of these characters with histories and each has their own little fiefdom of fanatics.

    What's the point of Robin? Not the in-universe explanation for the character origins. What's the point of having Robin the character?
    Robin is there top sell toys and inspire stories. Robin is no longer an audience surrogate or a way to get kids into comics because well Robin is considered lame by the general audience. The trends today have changed.

    There's a reason why Robin with the Katana's was such a huge success as a playable character. A reason why jason Tood is so popular Nertherelam had no choice but to add the character.

    kids today are darker.

    TtGo is Dick in Tim's costume that was originally designed for Dick, Red X hints at Jason and with the introduction os Damian he has become more egoistical, has more dastardly plans and depicted more of an irritant who the team. His origin, future role and even a reveal of a backwards name indicate he is Dick

    TTGO's Robin isn't Stable and yet is the most visible of the Robins. He is the face of the Brand. He is the face of DC Kids. I believe is the point the poster was making

    That is the version that WB pushes the most and the one they present the youngest Dc entertainment consumers with. TTGO version of Robin is a very important not just because he is so popular and targeted at very young kids.
    He is important because he doesn't get Named. He is just Robin to the viewer. When the viewer grows up and gets into the individual Robins they will find something in each that reminds them of the show they watched growing up. This little hint at something Familiar is very important in retention of consumers even when it clear it's not the guy from the show.

    there's also the problem that naming a Robin splinters the fan base and potential earning.

    When Titles or movies/shows are announced with a Robin the next question is usually which Robin since the Robin fandom is such that some are only interested in material with their fav and some even outright
    spread hate and repeatedly bash something because it features a Robin they dislike.

    Robin is simply still a thing because it makes money and is a key part of franchises like TT. The trope of non powered sidekick isn't really a very common since I'm struggling to thin k of any others right now.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    First, there's no mention from Dick, or Bruce or anyone that Tim had outgrown Robin. No canon material implied that there's age restriction for Robin. Second, yes, Damian needs Robin more is one of factor that made Tim lose Robin title, but Dick also said that he saw Tim as his equal. No matter that Robin especially on Tim era often worked solo, the main role of Robin is Batman's sidekick, Batman's subordinate. You can't treat your equal as your subordinate. This is one of reason why I don't want Tim to be Robin again, because it will regress him to 'sidekick' status.

    Why some fans blame and berate Dick for choosing Robin by his own and for his own? Robin is DICK'S legacy, based on his family colors. For me he has every right to choose who will wear HIS legacy and HIS family colors. Besides, aren't we often see in real world when there's power shift on organization, the organizational structure will get some changes too?
    Hence why I want Tim to get a identity of his own. I didn't like how the switch from him to Damian occurred at the time, but that was over a decade ago. One of the things I hated about Rebirth was the fact he was back in his Robin costume again. Just with a double "R" instead of one. Regardless of how it happened, he needs to be branched off into something new. Something he can make his own.

    Well, Dick did give Tim his blessing in ALPFD, and it was Dick that ended it. So it was full circle.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Robin is there top sell toys and inspire stories. Robin is no longer an audience surrogate or a way to get kids into comics because well Robin is considered lame by the general audience. The trends today have changed.
    ...
    Robin is simply still a thing because it makes money and is a key part of franchises like TT. The trope of non powered sidekick isn't really a very common since I'm struggling to thin k of any others right now.
    "Robin" and the "Teen Titans" are still obviously one of the biggest brands for DC. What and who "Robin" and "Teen Titans" means exactly is debatable, but what isn't is the amount of media produced in the last 10 years by DC that heavily emphasizes one or the other, often but not always together.

    Kids and adults still like Robin. The times don't change the core dynamic. Batman is never going to be a relatable character. He's not supposed to be relatable. That's what Robin is for.


    Again I look at "Into The Spider Verse" and "We Are Robin" and it all seems to be there for the taking. "Anyone can wear the R."
    Last edited by gregpersons; 08-07-2020 at 05:43 AM.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Hence why I want Tim to get a identity of his own. I didn't like how the switch from him to Damian occurred at the time, but that was over a decade ago. One of the things I hated about Rebirth was the fact he was back in his Robin costume again. Just with a double "R" instead of one. Regardless of how it happened, he needs to be branched off into something new. Something he can make his own.

    Well, Dick did give Tim his blessing in ALPFD, and it was Dick that ended it. So it was full circle.
    Tim does have an identity of his own, it's Robin, and Tim Drake. Even if somehow we find a really awesome codename, it doesn't change the fact that he's always going to be the third Robin, and can never be the first Robin to graduate successfully to another role, or the first Robin to tragically graduate to another role. He's pretty boxed in to what can make him the most unique. The most unique thing that could happen for Tim is that he returns to and stays Robin, whether or not future Robins come or go... that, ironically, would be the most unique possible thing. It's never been done!

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    That's my point. And the "tech savvy Robin" is Tim because he comes from the 90s. Grayson is an acrobat because it was the 30s. Tim, Jason, Duke, Dick are just names that could be the real kid behind Robin. The question it seems to me is, can you have multiple Robins? And if you can, is there a line for how many is too many, and where is it?

    What do the fans want "Robin" to be? Is it one person or multiple?

    For me, I already stated my preference; I'd make them all gothic non-mutant X-Men and not fuss about the number so much as justifying each different person's role and function.
    That modernised costume was created for Dick Grayson. jason was shown in comics been competent with computers and such. Carrie was good with tech since she was from the 80's.

    Tech savy is all Robins outside of Dick from back in the day who only had the batcomputer [bless him]. It the comic characters moving along with the times.

    Tech savy Time also wasn't always a thing. he was more a detective not a hacker.

    There can be too many Robins since we have the current situation. In comics you can have more than one. Tim never really was not Robins since Damian arrived. He robinish in tec and in yj and new 52 TT and he was Red Robin.

    Writers like Synder have voiced that there are too many allies in Gotham. Geoff Johns when approached by Synder on what to do with Duke after Damian was announced to coming back advised to make him an independent hero don't make him a side kick he also told him to give him a new function as distinct as possible from Nightwing since Dc doesn't need another Nightwing lite running around.

    Outside media often cut down on the number included.

    Personally i would have Dick, Jason and Damian. Dick at this point is always going to be there since he is the starting point, Jason's story is a very important to both batman and Robin so he's in. Damian isn't as important to the Batman myth as Jason's death but it important enough and evolved the story of Batman [Both Dick and Bruce] to a different point. Damian also had real impact on the Robin mantle and the 1st robin.

    Tim doesn't add or have any effect on the batman story aside form harming it by Introducing the batman needs Robin which is emotional abuse of a minor and results in Bruce spending time in Arkaham since he apparently is incapable of controlling his violent impulses himself.

    An adult tasking a child with making sure he doesn't snap is place undue mental burden on the child. Adults who are at risk of hurting themselves or other require professional care by a trained professional like a support worker and those adults have the kids around them looked after by a relative or the state.
    You remove the kid for to protect them not just from physical harm but also to safeguard them from the mental and emotional stress.

    Besides any stories that can be told with Tim can be told with any of the Robins while you can't substitute Tim for Damian or Jason.

    I also find the dick, Jason and Damian to be far more interesting.

  9. #114
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    "Robin" and the "Teen Titans" are still obviously one of the biggest brands for DC. What and who "Robin" and "Teen Titans" means exactly is debatable, but what isn't is the amount of media produced in the last 10 years by DC that heavily emphasizes one or the other, often but not always together.

    Kids and adults still like Robin. The times don't change the core dynamic. Batman is never going to be a relatable character. He's not supposed to be relatable. That's what Robin is for.


    Again I look at "Into The Spider Verse" and "We Are Robin" and it all seems to be there for the taking. "Anyone can wear the R."
    Relatable is subjective. i can relate to the trauma of losing a parent and struggling to move on. I'm not fighting crime on the streets with gadgets and I don't have lots of money.

    I didn't make a vow to make sure not 10 year olds ever has to watch their folks killed but I can relate to his desire to stop kids from getting harmed or their lives ruined which is why I choose to specialise in working with at risk kids or kids who have been victims of abuse. I could have chosen to work with adults but I didn't.

    I can't relate to being a super hero nor do I relate to Robin. I've never wanted to be a hero and if I had to be one it wouldn't be either [I'd be Superman if I had to pick a hero since superhero get hurt a lot and i don't want any of that so give the guy who doesn't feel punches]

    What draws me to Robin isn't the character but the character wearing the costume.

    I really like the idea of We Are Robin and wish we'd gotten more. An adaptation of WAR would be great. Not with the main Robin's though but the kids from the series led by Duke.

    The main Robins together sounds good in theory but the reality is that when they are written together the fanbase is always left wanting.

    Fans of each Robin want their guy to be the main guy or be more badass or get more scenes etc. they view them as leads or compare how they are handled etc

    WAR started as a group and we went in without expectations of how the character should act or anything like that. It's not the same with the main robins.

    I'd like to see all four working together like Into the Spiderverse it'd require a good writer who is able to keep them in character and balance the role's so it feels like they all had something to do.

    not another Batman and Robin eternal

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    That modernised costume was created for Dick Grayson. jason was shown in comics been competent with computers and such. Carrie was good with tech since she was from the 80's.

    Tech savy is all Robins outside of Dick from back in the day who only had the batcomputer [bless him]. It the comic characters moving along with the times.

    Tech savy Time also wasn't always a thing. he was more a detective not a hacker.

    There can be too many Robins since we have the current situation. In comics you can have more than one. Tim never really was not Robins since Damian arrived. He robinish in tec and in yj and new 52 TT and he was Red Robin.

    Writers like Synder have voiced that there are too many allies in Gotham. Geoff Johns when approached by Synder on what to do with Duke after Damian was announced to coming back advised to make him an independent hero don't make him a side kick he also told him to give him a new function as distinct as possible from Nightwing since Dc doesn't need another Nightwing lite running around.

    Outside media often cut down on the number included.

    Personally i would have Dick, Jason and Damian. Dick at this point is always going to be there since he is the starting point, Jason's story is a very important to both batman and Robin so he's in. Damian isn't as important to the Batman myth as Jason's death but it important enough and evolved the story of Batman [Both Dick and Bruce] to a different point. Damian also had real impact on the Robin mantle and the 1st robin.

    Tim doesn't add or have any effect on the batman story aside form harming it by Introducing the batman needs Robin which is emotional abuse of a minor and results in Bruce spending time in Arkaham since he apparently is incapable of controlling his violent impulses himself.

    An adult tasking a child with making sure he doesn't snap is place undue mental burden on the child. Adults who are at risk of hurting themselves or other require professional care by a trained professional like a support worker and those adults have the kids around them looked after by a relative or the state.
    You remove the kid for to protect them not just from physical harm but also to safeguard them from the mental and emotional stress.

    Besides any stories that can be told with Tim can be told with any of the Robins while you can't substitute Tim for Damian or Jason.

    I also find the dick, Jason and Damian to be far more interesting.
    Tim had a normal family, school and social life outside of being Batman's sidekick. You cannot tell the Robin stories they did Tim with Jason, Dick or Damian, they were one and all raised in the world of supers where Tim still had one foot in the normal world.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Writers like Synder have voiced that there are too many allies in Gotham. Geoff Johns when approached by Synder on what to do with Duke after Damian was announced to coming back advised to make him an independent hero don't make him a side kick he also told him to give him a new function as distinct as possible from Nightwing since Dc doesn't need another Nightwing lite running around.
    Find it hard that Snyder has said there are too many allies when he, himself, introduced two more in the form of Duke and Harper. But Gotham is ridiculously overpopulated with allies. Ideally, they would move most out like they did with Nightwing. The problem with that, is that it makes it hard to do crossovers when everyone is spread out. It's they made Bludhaven so close to Gotham.

    As for Tim's skills? He was a gifted detective, yes. But he was adept with computers as well. More so than the Robins previous. The only Batfamily member better with computers is Babs.
    Last edited by Somecrazyaussie; 08-07-2020 at 07:28 AM.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Relatable is subjective. i can relate to the trauma of losing a parent and struggling to move on. I'm not fighting crime on the streets with gadgets and I don't have lots of money.

    I didn't make a vow to make sure not 10 year olds ever has to watch their folks killed but I can relate to his desire to stop kids from getting harmed or their lives ruined which is why I choose to specialise in working with at risk kids or kids who have been victims of abuse. I could have chosen to work with adults but I didn't.

    I can't relate to being a super hero nor do I relate to Robin. I've never wanted to be a hero and if I had to be one it wouldn't be either [I'd be Superman if I had to pick a hero since superhero get hurt a lot and i don't want any of that so give the guy who doesn't feel punches]

    What draws me to Robin isn't the character but the character wearing the costume.

    I really like the idea of We Are Robin and wish we'd gotten more. An adaptation of WAR would be great. Not with the main Robin's though but the kids from the series led by Duke.

    The main Robins together sounds good in theory but the reality is that when they are written together the fanbase is always left wanting.

    Fans of each Robin want their guy to be the main guy or be more badass or get more scenes etc. they view them as leads or compare how they are handled etc

    WAR started as a group and we went in without expectations of how the character should act or anything like that. It's not the same with the main robins.

    I'd like to see all four working together like Into the Spiderverse it'd require a good writer who is able to keep them in character and balance the role's so it feels like they all had something to do.

    not another Batman and Robin eternal
    I agree with you. And also I lost a parent recently so I feel you there too. It sucks a lot. Anyway we pretty much agree... I don't want Batman and Robin Eternal and I think what we're talking about is very different tonally from what DC is doing at the moment -- and that's kind of the point.

    What we like about these characters is different from how DC sees them. We like the characters as people. DC/WB doesn't care, they just like the costume. I say, well, a nice compromise would be all of the characters and lots of variations on the costume.

    But yeah it would require new talent. DC needs it more than anyone, they've been relying on the Scott Lobdells of the world for like 30 years.

  13. #118
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    I personally would like to see Tim become Joker Jr. like in Batman Beyond minus the microchip I'd prefer him to instead get tortured by Joker for months on end and be exposed to so much joker gas that he never fully recovers. I just think it would echo the whole theme of Bruce not being allowed to be happy and it would make sense for Joker to corrupt Tim whose considered so "pure" among the Robins. It would also create some new dynamics with the villains and the Bat Family especially if every now and then there was a glimmer of the old Tim like him having a gun on Spiler but not being able to pull the trigger or something like that.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    The family has Peter Parker types Duke and Dick.
    Tim has never been the heart of the family.
    I'm not even going to touch the line about A reset giving Tim a fresh slate stabilising the Gotham verse because OMG!

    The most successful Robin in decades is the TTGo Robin. He is the face of the Brand and has been since that show blew up. He is the one that represents Robin to the next generation of fans.

    You don't get to decide what the Brand representation looks like. The Market dictates that and I'm not even talking about the comics Market.

    Also Stable. Tim hasn't been stable for a while now. Are we forgetting RR with unstable Tim? Are we forgetting Rebirth Tim's blueprints for a police state and the fact that he was just fine with working with a fascist?

    If you want a stable peter Parker type in Robin colours then Duke is the only that fits that for a while now.

    Tim does nothing for Robin. He does nothing for the Bat family. He does nothing for the Gotham verse.

    These all function without him. In reality most times he is adapted out that's how little he adds.
    I don't really see Dick and Duke as being too similar to Peter Parker (well, maybe in terms of the jokes with Dick and their reputation with the ladies).
    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    That is not an unpopular opinion. Dick has every right to decide and he made the right choice. He made the choice any decent human being would [looking at you Alfred Pennyworth you weak necked 'A hole']. What a hero would do. Save a 10 year old who had no one else or allow a mature teen to keep wearing his favourite costume.

    Even if Dick didn't view Tim as an equal he still made the right choice. One needed it more. Damian was the more vulnerable and in need of guidance. They had all lost their father but Dick, Tim and Alfred still had each other. Damian had no one having left the LOA.

    The only one's who question the choice or throw blame are a particular subset of Tim fans who devout their time and blogs to hating on Dick and Damian like thattimdrakeguy and writers of Tim Drake woobie fan fiction.

    most don't view i like that. At least not that I've seen
    I get why Dick did it, and it worked out in the end, but it was still a jerk thing to do to his brother on such a short notice.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    I think he provides the stable Teen Robin, the grounded Peter Parker in the center of this madness. You can still have all of the alternative Robins, including Damian calling himself Robin. In the 11 years since Damian became Robin, he's far more frequently still referred to as "Damian" rather than "Robin."

    So why deny Tim the role the character was created to be which is -- the brand-facing Robin, the stable one. If all of the Robins are crazy or dead, then there's really nothing to center the story. That's part of the reason there's no real heart to the Batman comics anymore it feels like -- all of the heart has been ripped out entirely, and the last vestiges of it are now entirely dismantled, Alfred and Selina and Dick Grayson. Yay, Batman has no one at all, more time for Punchline. Yay.

    IMO, the Bat universe desperately needs a Peter Parker, and the closest to that was the O'Neil editorial years with Tim Drake as Robin.

    Robin / Tim Drake -- the relatable and steady hero who is doing it as a passion, he believes in direct-action justice and wants to help.
    Red Hood / Jason Todd -- the bad boy ex-Robin
    Robin / Damian Wayne -- the dark heir and newest protegee who is more likely to team up with Batman in the field. Sometimes both Robins work together, to which they'd divide codenames for that particular mission, maybe by color (Red, Black) or number (1, 2) or whatever. Captain Robin and Lt. Robin, lol. At the moment they're just calling each other Drake and Damian, which also works fine enough I guess. Edit -- Or, when they're both together you have Teen Wonder and Boy Wonder.
    Nightwing / Dick Grayson -- ideally he's the one we know and love, the older brother guy who has some advice but is still figuring himself out ex-Robin
    Spoiler / Stephanie Brown -- Tim's girlfriend, she was a Robin for a time too but didn't want to take on the identity and preferred her independence.


    What we all liked about Tim was that he was the "normal" one. A continuity reset to clean up his origin with a fresh slate would help stabilize a lot of the Gotham verse. I think all of these alternate identities are really missing the point, and not doing much more than pissing on the potential.
    Peter Parker is one of the greatest superheros ever created, but I'm not sure the Bat-Mythos is really in need of a representation of his archetype. That's why we're reading Batman, not Spider-Man.

    I'd say with the acrobatics, the smart-ass quips, the ladies man status and the ass, Dick is already covering as an answer to Peter, just not as a full representation of the archetype. He also definitely should not be still figuring things out at this point. He's a professional who has been doing this since he was around 12.

    I also think that as far as post-Dick and Jason partners go, Barbara as Batgirl covers some of the same ground Tim does. Minus the squiky romance Timm injected into things, she'd function just as well as any of the Robins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pohzee View Post
    The Teen Titans Go costume is not any more Tim's because he wears pants than Tim's costume is Dick's because he wears green gloves. It's just a modernization of the Robin costume.
    Agreed, the costume was designed for Dick as a general update for Robin. he also wore versions of it in high profile stuff like BTAS and Batman Forever in addition to the Titans cartoon, so I'd say he has equal claim to the costume as much as Tim.

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