Do you want Tim Drake to be Robin again?

[Light of Justice]

About Tim's role on comic, I think in the end it depends on do audience want 'unique Robin' or 'relatable Robin'. Tim is definitely not the most unique Robin. All Robins have high intelligence (yes even Jason, ESPECIALLY JASON, don't know who was the first one that regress top-student and literature enthusiast Jason so he become the dumb punk of the family) and just like some posts pointed out, they're all capable to do detective works. His uniqueness is that he invented Batman needs Robin so he will not lose in darkness stuff and to explain that, reader needs information about why Batman didn't have Robin, which boils down to Bruce and Dick separation story and Jason's death story. Probably this is why Tim's story is really hard to get animated, his origin is heavily related to his predecessor and it will increase the budget, compared to Damian that his origin is basically "he's Batman's son with daughter of villain" and combined with his unique personality, the rest can flow with the plot.

BUT, on the opposite side, Damian's unique personality makes him very difficult to get perfectly adapted. Damian fans know well that not many writers can grasp Damian's voice properly (for our eternal frustration). Either they will watered him down and make him lose some of his antics, or they're overdone it and make him almost villainous (looking at you, Glass). I often see Damian Robin on animated media/movie and become disappointed because seriously Damian on there is just Damian by name, the personality resemble Tim instead. Why didn't they just use Tim? Tim's lack of uniqueness compared to other Robins but has calmer and less divisive personality is what makes him relatable and easier to be accepted by readers. So yeah, it's tough spot for DC. Perhaps this whole Robin sudden shift is DC's attempt to take care of that.

[Restingvoice]

Tim has been on record that he's always there for Bruce if he needs him, even if Bruce doesn't want Tim to spend so much of his life trying to be there for Bruce so he pushes Tim away.

I'm not sure if Tim has actually said on-panel if he'd be willing to become Robin again. I feel like Tynion might have written something to that effect, but I can't recall exactly.

I know Tynion prefers him as Robin so he might have had a hand in this.

Okay so he can just be anything as long as he can be helpful

Tim said he wanted to be Robin because there was no one else. Lies since Nightwing is Right there.
Tim later admitted to Jor-El that he believed he was the ONLY one that could help.
It HAD to be him
He wanted to impress them. He admits he wanted to impress them


Tim said that Batman needs a Robin to stop him from getting too dark - Rubbish. batman was already dark and the 90's was the era batjerk was at it's peak.

The only Robin that ever brought light to Batman's world was Dick Grayson whose intro led to light Batman stories.

Tim is still dressed as Robin 2 replacement sidekick's later and keep's asking Bruce if he can help [code can I come back]

Tim wants to be Robin. He is a fan who saw an opening to insert himself into the lives of his heroes and he exploited it.

Yes, Tim still wants to be Robin.

Yeah but Nightwing isn't Robin and doesn't want to back to be Robin so I don't know what that's gotta do with anything

Tim said that in the context of what happened to Bruce after Jason's death. What happens after is... well, I can't really comment on that since I only know the gist of it... but from what I've seen there's a limit of what he can do as both a teenager and a newborn to the family who doesn't have the physical capability to stop Bruce. Let's say he's in over his head.

Out of story, we know the story went that way because DC is trying to do both, have a Robin for a brand and a solitary Batman. I don't know who and why started with Batjerk though.

Robin 2 replacement sidekick? Do you mean in Rebirth where the Red Robin costume is one letter away from Robin? Well, this one I'm unsure because I don't know if Tynion wants him to be Robin or did he just want to cash in on 90s nostalgia.

I know I said I'm counting every character development but it also has to make sense. Does he wear that costume because he really wants to be Robin back, based on what happened in the story before, or because it's a cosmetic suddenly added by the writer/artist?

Rephrasing in better words, if he doesn't wear that costume... if he still wears the vegas wing or the dr. midnite Red Robin costume, would the story change? Would it stop him from trying to help Batman again?

[dietrich]

Small detail: Carrie's stories take place in the farflung nightmarisch future of Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns. And people are far more familiar with a male Robin. If you want to do the Spider-Man thing of having to hide your superhero identity from your own family and school life with one of the most recognisable heroes DC has to offer in the main continuity, Tim Drake is best bet. If you prefer other Robins that's understandable but he's got plenty to offer from a business POV.

I'm aware when Carrie's story is set.
It's an adaptation so it's easy to bring her into current time
Carrie is likely more recognisable than Tim Drake as Robin. She is the one female Robin that fans can recognise. Tim is pretty much unknown to non comic readers. the few non comic readers who have seen Tim probably think it's Dick or Jason.

Robin is recognisable. Tim isn't.

And yet the Business keeps opting to exclude him even in Batfamily material. I don't think how much value Tim actually adds since I'm not privy to those numbers but the fact that he always gets left out implies that he doesn't add as much as the others. Heck Carrie was to be Robin for the Zack Snyder movies approved by WB so the business was willing to give her a chance.

[dietrich]

Okay so he can just be anything as long as he can be helpful



Yeah but Nightwing isn't Robin and doesn't want to back to be Robin so I don't know what that's gotta do with anything

Tim said that in the context of what happened to Bruce after Jason's death. What happens after is... well, I can't really comment on that since I only know the gist of it... but from what I've seen there's a limit of what he can do as both a teenager and a newborn to the family who doesn't have the physical capability to stop Bruce. Let's say he's in over his head.

Out of story, we know the story went that way because DC is trying to do both, have a Robin for a brand and a solitary Batman. I don't know who and why started with Batjerk though.

Robin 2 replacement sidekick? Do you mean in Rebirth where the Red Robin costume is one letter away from Robin? Well, this one I'm unsure because I don't know if Tynion wants him to be Robin or did he just want to cash in on 90s nostalgia.

I know I said I'm counting every character development but it also has to make sense. Does he wear that costume because he really wants to be Robin back, based on what happened in the story before, or because it's a cosmetic suddenly added by the writer/artist?

Rephrasing in better words, if he doesn't wear that costume... if he still wears the vegas wing or the dr. midnite Red Robin costume, would the story change? Would it stop him from trying to help Batman again?

Dick offered to return by Bruce's side that what that has to do with it

Let's say he's over his head. then he shouldn't be and his character should go home cos what we have now is Batman endangering a kid who is in over his head for ****'s and giggles. Tim being over his head renders the reason for him becoming Robin pointless while making Bruce a sicko who knows this kid is not effective, not needed and shouldn't be doing this but he continues.

Damian and Duke are the replacements that came after Tim. I meant that even after other Robin's/allies came on the scene Tim still didn't leave after originally stating that he would do it until someone else came along.

To me that means that he wants to be Robin and never had any intention of leaving the role

Dixon started the Batjerk

In and out of story Tim didn't help Batman

[Tzigone]

Dixon started the Batjerk

He most assuredly did not. Batjerk predates Dixon by a lot.

Damian and Duke are the replacements that came after Tim. I meant that even after other Robin's/allies came on the scene Tim still didn't leave after originally stating that he would do it until someone else came along.

To me that means that he wants to be Robin and never had any intention of leaving the role

I'd argue it means his intentions changed over time. Which is reasonable and realistic.

[Restingvoice]

Dick offered to return by Bruce's side that what that has to do with it

Let's say he's over his head. then he shouldn't be and his character should go home cos what we have now is Batman endangering a kid who is in over his head for ****'s and giggles. Tim being over his head renders the reason for him becoming Robin pointless while making Bruce a sicko who knows this kid is not effective, not needed and shouldn't be doing this but he continues.

Damian and Duke are the replacements that came after Tim. I meant that even after other Robin's/allies came on the scene Tim still didn't leave after originally stating that he would do it until someone else came along.

To me that means that he wants to be Robin and never had any intention of leaving the role

Dixon started the Batjerk

In and out of story Tim didn't help Batman

Yeah, but we're talking about Robin. Dick does not want to be Robin again.

Well, then Bruce is shitty in that context and continues to be shitty with all the other sidekicks. That's his story they decided to make. We can even extend this to Dick as Robin since technically he shouldn't make him a sidekick either, so this part is moot.

Okay, so that's them.

As for Tim, he continues to do his own thing despite being rejected as Robin by Bruce, Jean, and Dick. That seems to be his character. So the question now is, would, could, or should he be Robin, or could, would, should he be someone else.

The difference between the two seems to be just the name and costume considering how much Tim and Damian run around on their own, so I guess I need to ask what is the meaning of Robin these days if that's the case.

As for the replacements, Tim did leave when Damian became Robin but came back because they already consider themselves Bat-family. Tim has protected Gotham from middle to high school and acknowledged by all the members of the family, so even if he goes out of town on his own business he will still be welcome in Gotham if he offers his service... providing no one's being a dick...

All of those don't necessarily mean he wants to be Robin again. I mean if he does, sure, but the way he moves in and out of Gotham is similar to the other grown-up sidekicks.

Catching criminals in Gotham and forming a sidekick training group count as helping Batman since Batman's mission is keeping Gotham safe. It isn't limited to psychologically helping him personally.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Okay but you can with Carrie. The original Robin with a normal life, the original 3rd Robin and the first female Robin.

I still would just have 3 because imo The Batman universe shouldn't contain any stories of a kid sneaking out to help batman without parental consent.

Looking at it from a business POV and I really wanted to tell stories of a Robin with a normal life juggling school, Robin and lying to the folks then I'd bring in Carrie who is Tim but much more inclusive. She also has a very refreshing bubbly personality.

You accuse others of bashing the other Robin's to prop up Tim, but you keep repeatedly doing it to Tim to prop up this weird fixation you have for Carrie. You don't like Tim, that's fine. But the character was successful enough to head 3 mini-series and two solo series. Yes, you can argue that "Oh, people only bought it because it was Robin". Maybe. But the character was relatable and struck a cord with readers. His "official" tenure lasted 20 years almost. That alone has to count for something.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Yeah, but we're talking about Robin. Dick does not want to be Robin again.

Well, then Bruce is shitty in that context and continues to be shitty with all the other sidekicks. That's his story they decided to make. We can even extend this to Dick as Robin since technically he shouldn't make him a sidekick either, so this part is moot.

Okay, so that's them.

As for Tim, he continues to do his own thing despite being rejected as Robin by Bruce, Jean, and Dick. That seems to be his character. So the question now is, would, could, or should he be Robin, or could, would, should he be someone else.

The difference between the two seems to be just the name and costume considering how much Tim and Damian run around on their own, so I guess I need to ask what is the meaning of Robin these days if that's the case.

As for the replacements, Tim did leave when Damian became Robin but came back because they already consider themselves Bat-family. Tim has protected Gotham from middle to high school and acknowledged by all the members of the family, so even if he goes out of town on his own business he will still be welcome in Gotham if he offers his service... providing no one's being a dick...

All of those don't necessarily mean he wants to be Robin again. I mean if he does, sure, but the way he moves in and out of Gotham is similar to the other grown-up sidekicks.

Catching criminals in Gotham and forming a sidekick training group count as helping Batman since Batman's mission is keeping Gotham safe. It isn't limited to psychologically helping him personally.

This.

Robin used to be a reader surrogate for kids and, to some degree, provide a contrast to Bruce. But main Batman comics haven't really used Robin in a ongoing capacity for a longtime now. They did up until the late 80s, but once they gave Tim his own ongoing, he was off in that (coming in/out of the main Batbooks as needed). The Batman/Robin dynamic came back once Dick/Damian took over the roles. Continued for a bit with the New52, but was dropped again. Been that way for, what, since Year Zero?

Really, Robin purely exists now as a separate entity. One kept around in a prominent role as a viable IP. But Bruce doesn't need a Robin anymore. He needs allies. Just not a ongoing partner. It's why Harper and Duke became their own thing. Damian will likely be the last "Robin" we see for a longtime. Another may come along eventually, but It would be hard to usurp the son of Bruce.

[dietrich]

You accuse others of bashing the other Robin's to prop up Tim, but you keep repeatedly doing it to Tim to prop up this weird fixation you have for Carrie. You don't like Tim, that's fine. But the character was successful enough to head 3 mini-series and two solo series. Yes, you can argue that "Oh, people only bought it because it was Robin". Maybe. But the character was relatable and struck a cord with readers. His "official" tenure lasted 20 years almost. That alone has to count for something.

Saying that Tim a dark haired white male Robin isn't as inclusive as a female Robin isn't me bashing Tim to prop up Carrie.

Never said Tim wasn't successful but in outside media he is no one. Carrie is known by most casuals as the female Robin. Most likely don't know her name only being able to recognise her image but they know her. Tim is just another Robin.

Me saying That Carrie is a girl isn't propping her up or Bashing Tim
Viewing her as inclusive or saying that this is a pro isn't propping her up or bashing Tim.

Not disregarding his lengthy tenure or the impact he made on people but that doesn't mean that he has to automatically be my choice.

His lengthy tenure does count. It means his fans got plenty of material to re-read

[Konja7]

About Tim's role on comic, I think in the end it depends on do audience want 'unique Robin' or 'relatable Robin'. Tim is definitely not the most unique Robin. All Robins have high intelligence (yes even Jason, ESPECIALLY JASON, don't know who was the first one that regress top-student and literature enthusiast Jason so he become the dumb punk of the family) and just like some posts pointed out, they're all capable to do detective works. His uniqueness is that he invented Batman needs Robin so he will not lose in darkness stuff and to explain that, reader needs information about why Batman didn't have Robin, which boils down to Bruce and Dick separation story and Jason's death story. Probably this is why Tim's story is really hard to get animated, his origin is heavily related to his predecessor and it will increase the budget, compared to Damian that his origin is basically "he's Batman's son with daughter of villain" and combined with his unique personality, the rest can flow with the plot.

BUT, on the opposite side, Damian's unique personality makes him very difficult to get perfectly adapted. Damian fans know well that not many writers can grasp Damian's voice properly (for our eternal frustration). Either they will watered him down and make him lose some of his antics, or they're overdone it and make him almost villainous (looking at you, Glass). I often see Damian Robin on animated media/movie and become disappointed because seriously Damian on there is just Damian by name, the personality resemble Tim instead. Why didn't they just use Tim? Tim's lack of uniqueness compared to other Robins but has calmer and less divisive personality is what makes him relatable and easier to be accepted by readers. So yeah, it's tough spot for DC. Perhaps this whole Robin sudden shift is DC's attempt to take care of that.

WB cares about the concept, not so much about the personality.

- Dick is the first (and most recognizable) Robin. So, WB will always use him as first option. The reason why WB will use other is because Dick overgrow Robin (or because they want to use the son of Batman concept).

- Jason is the Robin that died and return as antihero. That's why Jason stories by WB are always about his death an resurrection. If he has a story of Jason as Robin, it is pretty likely will be about his death (and resurrection).

- Damian is the son of Batman, that's the concept WB like about him (and the reason why he is the second favorite Robin to use). His complicated personality could be a bonus, but WB could discard this if they don't need it for the story.


Tim doesn't seem to have a popular concept. Some mentioned the "normal life" Robin, but they could use this for Dick (it will need to change his background, but they probably dare).

WB just use Tim if Dick has overgrow Robin, but Damian should be too young for the Robin mantle (I've already say why they don't use Jason).

[SiegePerilous02]

Comic Batgirl has never been much of a partner for Bruce though..

Well the comics are kind of all over the place now, so why should that stop it?

It's the BTAS influence talking for me, but I liked how Babs was more independent in the DCAU while Dick was Bruce's partner and then was brought into the fold more when Dick left and eventually became Bruce's main partner. I think it just makes more sense than rehashing the Robin set up. I obviously could do without the affair, it would be strictly platonic in my ideal version. But Bruce and Babs being partners and Dick and Damian being partners would be pretty perfect. Babs can also still have the BOP.

Kate has sort of taken over the "independent Bat-female" niche anyway.

I enjoyed Dick's detective stories at Hudson U. And Black Mirror is probably the most notable detective story to come from any of the former Robins.

Also, Who is Donna Troy?

Animated Series Robin was Tim, not Dick.

It was Dick for the first three seasons. The switch to Kids WB and the design changes led to the Jason/Tim hybrid taking over.

He most assuredly did not. Batjerk predates Dixon by a lot..

It really starts with Miller, but I think Dixon really cemented it more than any other author in the 90s/early 2000s.

[Frontier]

And they can emphasize it all they want but it doesn’t make him particularly necessary or actually unique. They all do it. They could tell detective stories with any of them. Better ones too if I’m being honest as being the ‘best detective’ often just becomes a cheat to explain Tim inherently just knowing things.

All the Robins are basically acrobats but I don't think that takes away from Dick being the best at it.

I don't think Tim is guilty of that "cheat" any more than Bruce is.

I enjoyed Dick's detective stories at Hudson U. And Black Mirror is probably the most notable detective story to come from any of the former Robins.

No one's saying Tim succeeding Bruce on that front means the other Robin's aren't good detectives, just like Batman isn't the only good detective in the DCU but he's the one who gets called "the world's greatest detective."

Well the comics are kind of all over the place now, so why should that stop it?

It's the BTAS influence talking for me, but I liked how Babs was more independent in the DCAU while Dick was Bruce's partner and then was brought into the fold more when Dick left and eventually became Bruce's main partner. I think it just makes more sense than rehashing the Robin set up. I obviously could do without the affair, it would be strictly platonic in my ideal version. But Bruce and Babs being partners and Dick and Damian being partners would be pretty perfect. Babs can also still have the BOP.

Kate has sort of taken over the "independent Bat-female" niche anyway.

Animated Babs is usually handled more like a traditional sidekick, but just talking comics-wise it just doesn't seem like something the writers are interested in or could make happen organically. Not much interest in Batman and Batgirl on an ongoing basis compared to Batman and Robin (however negligible that seems at times).

It really starts with Miller, but I think Dixon really cemented it more than any other author in the 90s/early 2000s.

I'd blame Rucka and Brubaker more, if anyone.

Saying that Tim a dark haired white male Robin isn't as inclusive as a female Robin isn't me bashing Tim to prop up Carrie.

Never said Tim wasn't successful but in outside media he is no one. Carrie is known by most casuals as the female Robin. Most likely don't know her name only being able to recognise her image but they know her. Tim is just another Robin.

Me saying That Carrie is a girl isn't propping her up or Bashing Tim
Viewing her as inclusive or saying that this is a pro isn't propping her up or bashing Tim.

Not disregarding his lengthy tenure or the impact he made on people but that doesn't mean that he has to automatically be my choice.

His lengthy tenure does count. It means his fans got plenty of material to re-read

What about the other canon female Robin, Steph?

[Somecrazyaussie]

Saying that Tim a dark haired white male Robin isn't as inclusive as a female Robin isn't me bashing Tim to prop up Carrie.

Never said Tim wasn't successful but in outside media he is no one. Carrie is known by most casuals as the female Robin. Most likely don't know her name only being able to recognise her image but they know her. Tim is just another Robin.

Me saying That Carrie is a girl isn't propping her up or Bashing Tim
Viewing her as inclusive or saying that this is a pro isn't propping her up or bashing Tim.

Not disregarding his lengthy tenure or the impact he made on people but that doesn't mean that he has to automatically be my choice.

His lengthy tenure does count. It means his fans got plenty of material to re-read

We had a female Robin in Steph (Who I adore as a character). But, and don't take this the wrong way, we really don't need a female Robin. Why? Because females are already represented with Batgirl (Who is just as recognizable as Batman/Robin), Batwoman, Spoiler, and Orphan. All great characters in their own unique way.

Carrie is a fine character. But let's not mistake that for why she is known. She is famous because she was the first female Robin and because she appeared in a seminal story. She only appeared as Robin In the latter. Every sequel or side-story since has seen her appear as a different identity.

The go-to Robin's in outside media will always be Dick and Damian. Dick because he is the most recognizable with the identity, and Damian as he is the most current. Jason is only ever used when the want to do A Death In The Family or Under The Red Hood. Outside of those he has only a few video game appearances. Tim will get a decent showing if they ever adapt ALPOD or Knightfall.

We do have ample reading material. But saying Tim isn't need is a bit much, especially when he has a lot to offer. That is why a majority don't want him to regress back to being Robin. They want him to get his own identity so he can start carving out a path for himself (same way Dick and Jason have). They had him doing that before the New52 derailed it.

The whole point of the thread is to do this: ascertaining what DC should do in order to get more stories published with Tim and to ensure he doesn't step on any other character to do so.

[Konja7]

We had a female Robin in Steph (Who I adore as a character). But, and don't take this the wrong way, we really don't need a female Robin. Why? Because females are already represented with Batgirl (Who is just as recognizable as Batman/Robin), Batwoman, Spoiler, and Orphan. All great characters in their own unique way.

Carrie is a fine character. But let's not mistake that for why she is known. She is famous because she was the first female Robin and because she appeared in a seminal story. She only appeared as Robin In the latter. Every sequel or side-story since has seen her appear as a different identity.

The go-to Robin's in outside media will always be Dick and Damian. Dick because he is the most recognizable with the identity, and Damian as he is the most current. Jason is only ever used when the want to do A Death In The Family or Under The Red Hood. Outside of those he has only a few video game appearances. Tim will get a decent showing if they ever adapt ALPOD or Knightfall.

We do have ample reading material. But saying Tim isn't need is a bit much, especially when he has a lot to offer. That is why a majority don't want him to regress back to being Robin. They want him to get his own identity so he can start carving out a path for himself (same way Dick and Jason have). They had him doing that before the New52 derailed it.

The whole point of the thread is to do this: ascertaining what DC should do in order to get more stories published with Tim and to ensure he doesn't step on any other character to do so.

I wouldn't say females have so much representation by Spoiler and Orphan, since they are pretty relegated, but I understand your point about Batgirl being pretty iconic.


Now, if Knightfall is adapted, the Robin will probably be Dick (or Damian). They don't really need Tim Robin for that story, right? So, WB could use one of the most recognizable Robin.

In change, ALPOD really needs Tim. However, this story will need a version of "A Death in the Family" first where Jason dies.

[Godlike13]

All the Robins are basically acrobats but I don't think that takes away from Dick being the best at it.

I don't think Tim is guilty of that "cheat" any more than Bruce is.

That’s not the point, the point is being the best at flips doesn’t actually make’s Dick genuinely special or unique. It doesn’t actually create situations or particular kinds of stories that are unique to him. This is the problem with trying to use general traits to define a character. At the the end of the day they all can flip.