View Poll Results: Do you want Tim to be Robin again?

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  • Yes

    30 24.00%
  • No

    71 56.80%
  • Depends

    24 19.20%
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  1. #31
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    I can't blame Bruce being about toxic masculinity on Tim, at all. That started with Jason and Dick, not Tim; remember how originally Bruce fired Dick because he wasn't working as his partner as much anymore, and just replaced him with Jason before even doing so? Yeah. That's the definition of toxic masculinity.

    I also don't agree with the idea that Tim just doesn't work as a solo hero. While his career with Young Justice and the Teen Titans have defined him he also spent a lot of time on his own during those eras; he has had the only actually successful Robin solo which spun off into Red Robin, which as bad a codename as that might be (and Tim wasn't the first to have it, Earth 2 Grayson was) the run was really good and successful and defined Tim as being able to be his own hero.

    That's probably where a lot of the issue comes from, though; as much as Tim was Bruce's partner he was also his own hero. He was never defined by being "... and Robin" or by being just another cog in a team wheel. But that's all that he's been since the New 52.

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  2. #32
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    nope, it's beyond silly at this point that Tim Drake is still struggling to move pass Robin. if it's so hard to create a new superhero identity for him (which it shouldn't be, there are a million Tim Drake archetypes to pull from) just do what they should've done when they rolled Barbara back to Batgirl: make him Oracle. or just ditch the codename entirely and let him be a Luke Cage or Jessica Jones type character, Tim Drake is a decent enough sounding name; decent enough that they just basically used it as his hero name last time. perpetuating Tim Drake's benjamin button syndrome says to me that DC is just stuck in the past and creatively bankrupt. how many times can the universe progress, characters in his orbit actually age, yet Tim is still just 16 (maybe 17 sometimes) and playing Robin.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 08-05-2020 at 09:59 AM.
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  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    If there's nothing else to do with him then yeah though this could be the final nail in the coffin for the character.

    I doubt damian's giving up the mantle for good and we all know future writers introducing original Bat allies isn't a trend that's about to end so this problem will keep coming up.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I can't blame Bruce being about toxic masculinity on Tim, at all. That started with Jason and Dick, not Tim; remember how originally Bruce fired Dick because he wasn't working as his partner as much anymore, and just replaced him with Jason before even doing so? Yeah. That's the definition of toxic masculinity.

    I also don't agree with the idea that Tim just doesn't work as a solo hero. While his career with Young Justice and the Teen Titans have defined him he also spent a lot of time on his own during those eras; he has had the only actually successful Robin solo which spun off into Red Robin, which as bad a codename as that might be (and Tim wasn't the first to have it, Earth 2 Grayson was) the run was really good and successful and defined Tim as being able to be his own hero.

    That's probably where a lot of the issue comes from, though; as much as Tim was Bruce's partner he was also his own hero. He was never defined by being "... and Robin" or by being just another cog in a team wheel. But that's all that he's been since the New 52.
    Dick had the solo adventures back in the day in Star Spangled comics

  5. #35
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    That started with Jason and Dick, not Tim; remember how originally Bruce fired Dick because he wasn't working as his partner as much anymore, and just replaced him with Jason before even doing so? Yeah. That's the definition of toxic masculinity.
    That's not what happened originally. Chuck Dixon made this Retcon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    which as bad a codename as that might be (and Tim wasn't the first to have it, Earth 2 Grayson was)
    Dick Grayson from Kingdom Come, not Earth 2. But in Earth 1 canon, Jason was the first Red Robin.

  6. #36
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Dick had the solo adventures back in the day in Star Spangled comics
    I was talking about specifically in a Robin title.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    That's not what happened originally. Chuck Dixon made this Retcon.
    No. That's how it was originally written by Marv Wolfman.

    Dick Grayson from Kingdom Come, not Earth 2. But in Earth 1 canon, Jason was the first Red Robin.
    Ah! Thanks for the correction.

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  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I was talking about specifically in a Robin title.



    No. That's how it was originally written by Marv Wolfman.



    Ah! Thanks for the correction.
    Nah, Pre-Crisis Dick just outgrow the role almost at the same time that Jason got the job. It gets weird in Post Crisis, because Bruce did fire him at the beginning, but it was for a really dumb reason, there wasn't a figth or anything, but the whole thing is so condesdecending to Dick that it gives you a facepalm. Then i think that Dixon did the retcon in Nightwing Year One, to show that Bruce didn't apreciated him as a partner until it was too late.

    But yeah, Bruce crappy behavior doesn't really had much to do with Tim, DC wanted a darker Batman and they were gonna get it, Robin or no.
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  8. #38
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I was talking about specifically in a Robin title.



    No. That's how it was originally written by Marv Wolfman.



    Ah! Thanks for the correction.
    Bruce took on a new partner with Jason while Dick was absent, then Dick himself chose to leave the Robin identity behind. "Firing" him being Robin is a Post-Crisis thing.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    Bruce took on a new partner with Jason while Dick was absent, then Dick himself chose to leave the Robin identity behind. "Firing" him being Robin is a Post-Crisis thing.
    Yep, and to me it's become just another symbol/symptom of the dysfunctional personal that Bruce Wayne has become. It started before that, of course, and wasn't complete for a while after. Also shows the trend of heroes having problematic relationships with their loved ones. So many family relationships that were good in pre-COIE got retconned (or developed, but more retconned) to bad with post-COIE. Even within post-COIE, you can see some that started off good, but became worse. It's done for drama, and/or to make a character more sympathetic-seeming by having them wronged, and I get that. And I don't mind some of them being that way (Cissie and Bonnie was a good story, and I enjoyed both the good and bad part of Tim and Jack), but don't like the ones retconned. I was so thrilled with 2006 Blue Beetle for having a hero with overall good relationships with family members.

    I don't want Tim going back to Robin. Firstly, because it has become a role to be outgrown. It wasn't always, despite what some would say. Certainly, it played that way in silver-age "what if" stories where Dick grew up into Batman. But in the early NTT days, Robin grew up with Dick, instead of Dick outgrowing the role. The transition of Dick to Nightwing (with outgrowing the role as an excuse) was really only done to further Batman's fandom (they wanted a Robin again), not because it was necessary for Dick. It's something you can see in letters pages from back in 1970s - whether Dick should leave the codename Robin behind (and also whether he should get a new costume). But he was very popular as the grown hero (not sidekick) Robin in the NTT. But the time for that has passed. Jason made it very likely, and when a third in-continuity Robin came along, that settled the matter, IMO. I don't think Robin could go back to being a adult role at this point. Maybe someday in the future if they work hard at it, and don't have a younger one in the wings.

    I also don't agree with the idea that Tim just doesn't work as a solo hero. While his career with Young Justice and the Teen Titans have defined him he also spent a lot of time on his own during those eras; he has had the only actually successful Robin solo which spun off into Red Robin, which as bad a codename as that might be (and Tim wasn't the first to have it, Earth 2 Grayson was) the run was really good and successful and defined Tim as being able to be his own hero.
    I only read the first dozen or so Red Robin, and I hated it. Way too much of the Batman thing, where other heroes are made less-competent, so he can be right all the time. I also don't like traveling heroes. I did like his solo series as Robin (though, he was also a sidekick then, but working solo in those stories), though I quit reading at #113 - I picked it up years after original publishing, and I knew everything was going straight down the tubes (with Steph, with his family, with his personality turning way too Batman-like in a way that I hate in Batman, etc.). I do think Tim can work was a solo hero, though, and that's been shown.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-05-2020 at 09:15 AM.

  10. #40
    Mighty Member failo.legendkiller's Avatar
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    He should never leave the mantle of Robin in the first place.
    But it is too late, they crossed the line and now it's impossible to come back again.

    I always thought he is the perfect Robin for Bruce as Damian is the perfect Robin for DickBat.

    Obviously Dick could not stay as Batman forever and Bruce could not remain "dead". When Bruce came back and Damian was dead was the only moment when DC was supposed to take back Tim to Robin, but he was doing very well in his Red Robin solo series.
    Then New52 came in and no writer has been able to get things on the right track, even due to editorial wrong choices.

    Imo Damian is a great character who don't fit in the Robin role, he should be something else.
    I don't think DC wants to move on Damian from Robin role permanently, but if they do I agree.

    Problem is that now turn back Tim to Robin is commit a mistake after a mistake.

  11. #41
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    No. He's too old and has been gone from the position for too long to go back to it now.
    DC needs to come up with a better identity that is just his own.
    Returning to Robin is not going to help the character, he's just going to be replaced anyway.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    DC needs to come up with a better identity that is just his own.
    Agreed. I'd prefer a non-bird-name and that it be an original name, not someone else's old one and it not have "Bat" in the title*. And not a play on his own name (thought it was stupid with Troia, too).

    * I know Batman is so popular now, and it's probably a lost cause, but being more independent from Batman, not operating in his city, etc. really was great for Dick once up on a time. Sadly, they dragged him back into a subordinate position and that has (along with other things) done such damage to the character.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-05-2020 at 09:35 AM.

  13. #43
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    I hit depends because I passionatly hate Drake and his suit, they are the worst, hell even the reason Tim chose the new name is beyond moronic, his evil counterpart used it and now it was cool??? Before everything started going wrong with his character, and I mean when DC decided to kill everyone he loved and gave a lot of angst to him, he only wanted to be Robin so it's a good start point but I'm worried because I don't trust DC have the skill and/or will to write him decently.
    Last edited by Dazai_Osamu; 08-05-2020 at 11:55 PM.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Before everything started going wrong with his character, and I mean when DC decided to kill everyone he loved and gave a lot of angst to him, he only wanted to be Robin so it's a good start point but I'm worried because I don't trust DC have the skill and/or will to write him decently.
    That's when I liked him best too. He was more balanced, had a life outside the costume, had a family, etc. He only even planned to be Robin for a limited time, as I recall. Didn't really plan heroing to be his life. He was definitely thinking and mulling on that aspect - contemplating whether his goal was still the same - shortly before his world went to hell.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    Bruce took on a new partner with Jason while Dick was absent, then Dick himself chose to leave the Robin identity behind. "Firing" him being Robin is a Post-Crisis thing.
    Not really if we are talking about pre crisis.
    - Dick was there when Bruce took Jason in
    - it took Jason several issues until Bruce agreed that he could become his new partner

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