View Poll Results: Do you want Tim to be Robin again?

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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    Hell, forget about adaptation, we can count with one hand of how many times 4 main Robin are joined together on comic universe. I only remember Robin War and Batman&Robin Eternal. The others are either missing one Robin or too much focused on one Robin (Robin Rises, Titans of Tomorrow).
    Even Robin War and Batman&Robin Eternal didn't do a great job.
    Robin War was mostly focused on Dick, Damian and Duke and in B&RE Damian didn't appear untill the very end (and didn't got much to do), Tim had a subplot that end half way to the story and didn't got much focus after wards and Jason was basically just used s comic relief in Tims sub plot.

  2. #272
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    And Batman Ninja. I haven't watched the movie yet though, because of Jason's mask. Hell, it's even worse than Jason's shiny dildo mask, I can't contain my laughter.
    But yeah, disregarding the minus, Batman Ninja and Young Justice, in my knowledge, are the only adaptation medias that included all 4 main Robin.

    Hell, forget about adaptation, we can count with one hand of how many times 4 main Robin are joined together on comic universe. I only remember Robin War and Batman&Robin Eternal. The others are either missing one Robin or too much focused on one Robin (Robin Rises, Titans of Tomorrow).
    As well as the rare single issue in an arc where all of them are crammed together and either look like clones, their characters are done dirty, or both. The only exception in recent times is the one at Bat Burger, but even then, Tim wasn't around and was "dead" (held by Jor-El).

  3. #273
    Fantastic Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Even Robin War and Batman&Robin Eternal didn't do a great job.
    Robin War was mostly focused on Dick, Damian and Duke and in B&RE Damian didn't appear untill the very end (and didn't got much to do), Tim had a subplot that end half way to the story and didn't got much focus after wards and Jason was basically just used s comic relief in Tims sub plot.
    I mean, it's difficult to have all 4 Robins on spotlight so I guess it's can't be helped. I think Robin War at first is on the right path, showing that Robin is not an amateur mantle and uniqueness of each Robin (except Damian 'suffering' speech, geez Dami don't be such an edgelord like your father), but then the plot strayed to CoO and Dick. Duke of course will be the spotlight on Robin War, after all We Are Robin is his book.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    I mean, it's difficult to have all 4 Robins on spotlight so I guess it's can't be helped.
    At least in B&RE it should have been possible, with 26 issues there was more then enough room do give all of them some spotlight, and shouldn't have been to hard to come up with an final showdown were all of them got something important to do.

  5. #275
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    Just kill Tim off. He is out of his usefulness. We already have too many Robins.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 08-13-2020 at 11:58 PM.

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    At least in B&RE it should have been possible, with 26 issues there was more then enough room do give all of them some spotlight, and shouldn't have been to hard to come up with an final showdown were all of them got something important to do.
    CMIIW, B&RE books are written by Tynion, right? If so, well we all know how he is when it comes to Tim. I kinda enjoyed his run on Tec' but that family meeting scene? Downright terrible. Perhaps that will be one of problems with writing all 4 Robins in one story, writer bias will ruined everything and it only worsening fanwars between each Robin fans. But perhaps it can be settled with joint project of 4 writer, Tomasi for Damian, Tynion for Tim, Lobdell fir Jason, Seeley for Dick.

  7. #277
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    I think a book with all the Robin's is something people think they want, but if we were to actually get it the inherent problems with sticking them in a book together would start to turn off people rather quick. They were never deigned for it. These characters literally make one another dumber, lamer, and weaker. Together they would incomplete and water each other down thanks to their natural redundancies, and way they have tried to differentiate them. With the exception of Dick and Damian.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 08-14-2020 at 01:49 AM.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    I think a book with all the Robin's is something people think they want, but if we were to actually get it the inherent problems with sticking them in a book together would start to turn off people rather quick. They were never deigned for it. These characters literally make one another dumber, lamer, and weaker. Together they would incomplete and water each other down thanks to their natural redundancies, and way they have tried to differentiate them. With the exception of Dick and Damian.
    It's only watering down in the wrong hands. It should be watering up, as in feeding it like you would a plant or any living organism. That's why Dick & Damian are the exception because they are the only ones who have been written well by multiple writers, and even then really only Morrison and Tomasi. Whether you like Tom King's run or not, I don't think it's debatable that his scenes with the Bat Family were fantastic. That's what people want, people like me anyway. It's not some uncrackable formula, or some bold new invention. It's a straight forward concept -- a team that's also a family -- but in this case, instead of being mutants, or turtles, they are a goth grief group / ninja detective agency funded by an eccentric billionaire.

    Group dynamics can be reductive, or it can be productive. It's not either thing definitively. Ideally you use the group to explore the individual and vice versa. Umbrella Academy is basically doing a wacky parody version of what the Bat Family / Robins Inc or whatever book ought to have always been. So I know what you're saying. Usually by putting them together, they seem to be reduced to like 2 or 3 traits. It's because they don't interact often enough to develop beyond that with each other. Dick & Damian got a lot of page time together. Dick & Tim would be second place. That's why those relationships are looked at fondly.

  9. #279
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    I think that's a common assumption but honestly I don't think "Dick Grayson" is any more well known than "Tim Drake" -- "Robin" is what people know, and they may know that he was an "acrobat" but I'm not so sure how well the name "Dick Grayson" is embedded in the consciousness. It's hard to measure or know, we can only guess, honestly. There are MILLIONS of people who have been exposed to Batman through the video games, or the comics from the 90s forward, where "Robin is Tim Drake"... I'd bet there are more people in this category who care about Batman than those who are operating from a pre-1980s view when "Robin is Dick Grayson."

    The "Dick as Robin" character in TTGO have decidedly not emphasized his actual name. He's just "Robin." Same in Young Justice, he was primarily just "Robin" until he was "Nightwing." And then it was Tim as the new Robin again there. I haven't watched "The Batman" cartoon although that one does look like it's more about "Dick Grayson" as a person who becomes Robin? And "The Lego Batman Movie" made a funny point of making "Dick Grayson" be the name. Then think about how huge the Arkham video games were in the last 15 years. "Tim Drake" is the name of Robin for a lot of people. Heck, considering how much attention has been pushed toward "Jason Todd" and "Damian" over the last few years, it might already be that "Dick Grayson" is the least known name associated with the character... because DC seems to specifically not really like "Dick Grayson" and especially not "Dick".

    So idk, but I don't think DC knows either, just judging by their actions and brand management.
    Dick Grayson is part of popular culture and like most pop culture you can't escape it.

    The Adam West Show [including clips] has been seen by far more people than ever played Arkham and just by virtue of being so cheesy and laughable they are more likely to remember the west version of Robin

    The same with Batman and Robin. Millions of people have seen that movie too and it's far more remembered than Tim Drake in Arkham games. I've played that game and I still forgot he was in it.

    My kids know Damian and they know Dick Grayson age 12. Yes that's how my son who is 11 described Dick. I found out later that this is from a Youtube review video but my son said it's a meme that's how he learnt it.

    You talk about games. I watch gaming videos I suggest you check out some discussing the line up or Game play in the Arkham or Injustice games. Drink everything you come across a video where someone says the other [Tim]

    Damian Wayne, Red Hood,Jason todd, Robin are the names that pop up when they play. Just because a character is in something doesn't mean that they are going to be remembered. Tim is in YJ and has been for years but One episode of Damian as Robin in the Harley Quinn show and that is all over the net social media.

    Just one brief appearance from DamianRobin has general more discuss, views and interest than Tim on YJ. That discuss, views that online presence that is how these characters become part of pop culture.

    Anyway the point I'm trying to make is that just because Tim was the Robin in a series of Games doesn't really matter is the same group that played that game have also been exposed to other Robin's who make more of an impression.

    To a lot of people who played those games Dick is still their default. It's not like people live in a bubble. People who play games also watch Tv, surf the net, engage in discussion and watch movies.

    They retain the ones that make a strong enough impression and the ones that they encounter frequently.

    Now if you believe that people who play games do live in a bubble then Damian is the default. He is the most notorious. The most controversial.

    Again compare the response and reaction to Robin in Harley Quinn to Robin in YJ. One of them blew up the net the other didn't even cause a ripple but both are Robin's in a TV show.

    To my son Robin is Dick Grayson age 12 simply because it makes him giggle. That struck with him. He knows more about Damian having read the Supersons and playing games. I'm sure he also has encountered Tim since Tim is in some of the lego games we play but if you ask him to name a Robin. It's always Dick Grayson age 12.

    Just being in a game doesn't mean anyone will remember or make a character the Default.
    It takes a repeated exposure over decades.
    Provoke a visceral or strong emotional reaction or be memorable to an extent that it overrides everything else.

  10. #280
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    It's only watering down in the wrong hands. It should be watering up, as in feeding it like you would a plant or any living organism. That's why Dick & Damian are the exception because they are the only ones who have been written well by multiple writers, and even then really only Morrison and Tomasi. Whether you like Tom King's run or not, I don't think it's debatable that his scenes with the Bat Family were fantastic. That's what people want, people like me anyway. It's not some uncrackable formula, or some bold new invention. It's a straight forward concept -- a team that's also a family -- but in this case, instead of being mutants, or turtles, they are a goth grief group / ninja detective agency funded by an eccentric billionaire.

    Group dynamics can be reductive, or it can be productive. It's not either thing definitively. Ideally you use the group to explore the individual and vice versa. Umbrella Academy is basically doing a wacky parody version of what the Bat Family / Robins Inc or whatever book ought to have always been. So I know what you're saying. Usually by putting them together, they seem to be reduced to like 2 or 3 traits. It's because they don't interact often enough to develop beyond that with each other. Dick & Damian got a lot of page time together. Dick & Tim would be second place. That's why those relationships are looked at fondly.
    Tom King did not handle the family well at all. He pandered to Tumblr withe the Bat Burger scene which was stupid.

    King is one of the worst offenders of the Robins = Turtles way of classifying the Robins which robs them of everything that makes them interesting by reducing them to one or two traits.

    Are you forgetting HIC?

    King might be able to handle Dick and Damian. I don't know about Tim under King. I know he has written him because I have read 2 titles penned by King that had Tim but I cannot recall what Tim was like. Drawing a Blank.

    King's Jason is an idiot who fights dogs, trains kids to be heroes by making them steal, Talks gibberish, is childish and vain. He is just kiddie frolicks and mostly comic relief.

    I don't think King is a good choice for a Robins title.
    I agree with Godlike. All the Robins together works on tumblr and sounds great but I doubt that if we did actually get one it'll be as great as what fans imagine.

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Dick Grayson is part of popular culture and like most pop culture you can't escape it.

    The Adam West Show [including clips] has been seen by far more people than ever played Arkham and just by virtue of being so cheesy and laughable they are more likely to remember the west version of Robin

    The same with Batman and Robin. Millions of people have seen that movie too and it's far more remembered than Tim Drake in Arkham games. I've played that game and I still forgot he was in it.

    My kids know Damian and they know Dick Grayson age 12. Yes that's how my son who is 11 described Dick. I found out later that this is from a Youtube review video but my son said it's a meme that's how he learnt it.

    You talk about games. I watch gaming videos I suggest you check out some discussing the line up or Game play in the Arkham or Injustice games. Drink everything you come across a video where someone says the other [Tim]

    Damian Wayne, Red Hood,Jason todd, Robin are the names that pop up when they play. Just because a character is in something doesn't mean that they are going to be remembered. Tim is in YJ and has been for years but One episode of Damian as Robin in the Harley Quinn show and that is all over the net social media.

    Just one brief appearance from DamianRobin has general more discuss, views and interest than Tim on YJ. That discuss, views that online presence that is how these characters become part of pop culture.

    Anyway the point I'm trying to make is that just because Tim was the Robin in a series of Games doesn't really matter is the same group that played that game have also been exposed to other Robin's who make more of an impression.

    To a lot of people who played those games Dick is still their default. It's not like people live in a bubble. People who play games also watch Tv, surf the net, engage in discussion and watch movies.

    They retain the ones that make a strong enough impression and the ones that they encounter frequently.

    Now if you believe that people who play games do live in a bubble then Damian is the default. He is the most notorious. The most controversial.

    Again compare the response and reaction to Robin in Harley Quinn to Robin in YJ. One of them blew up the net the other didn't even cause a ripple but both are Robin's in a TV show.

    To my son Robin is Dick Grayson age 12 simply because it makes him giggle. That struck with him. He knows more about Damian having read the Supersons and playing games. I'm sure he also has encountered Tim since Tim is in some of the lego games we play but if you ask him to name a Robin. It's always Dick Grayson age 12.

    Just being in a game doesn't mean anyone will remember or make a character the Default.
    It takes a repeated exposure over decades.
    Provoke a visceral or strong emotional reaction or be memorable to an extent that it overrides everything else.
    That's hilarious and adorable. Dick Grayson age 12. Good points. It doesn't surprise me that Damian and JasonTodd and Red Hood are equally known.

    Leaving Tim Drake in that kind of Wally West / Kyle Rayner spot of being like more of an asterisk, an entire generation basically deleted. You can see why -- the replacement characters were meant to just be costume-fillers. They were relatable updates. They were in-universe reboots of IPs, because they didn't want to cheat deaths or something. Tim, Wally, and Kyle have all been incorporated into their host characters of Dick, Barry, and Hal.

    "Robin" is the real character we love, just like we love "Batman" and accept "Bruce Wayne" as a good explanation for how and why Batman would exist. In the same way, Robin is the costume worn by a young rebel with dark hair, white skin, who is 1/2 to 3/4 of Batman's size.


    Edit -- Also I looked up the meme and I should've guessed, haha. Assuming its from some Tuber or somebody taking the piss out of All Star, and the repeated use of "Dick Grayson, age 12." lol
    Last edited by gregpersons; 08-14-2020 at 04:27 AM.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Tom King did not handle the family well at all. He pandered to Tumblr withe the Bat Burger scene which was stupid.

    King is one of the worst offenders of the Robins = Turtles way of classifying the Robins which robs them of everything that makes them interesting by reducing them to one or two traits.

    Are you forgetting HIC?

    King might be able to handle Dick and Damian. I don't know about Tim under King. I know he has written him because I have read 2 titles penned by King that had Tim but I cannot recall what Tim was like. Drawing a Blank.

    King's Jason is an idiot who fights dogs, trains kids to be heroes by making them steal, Talks gibberish, is childish and vain. He is just kiddie frolicks and mostly comic relief.

    I don't think King is a good choice for a Robins title.
    I agree with Godlike. All the Robins together works on tumblr and sounds great but I doubt that if we did actually get one it'll be as great as what fans imagine.
    Yeah it's something that kinda is like a "prove it" thing. It hasn't been done. The closest approximation I can give you are all loaded, like King -- I'm just talking about those Bat Burger scenes though.

    Tumblr has the passion for it and maybe the art.

    I wish it were possible to just like pitch it to DC and write it out because I do have a pretty clear idea on how you could Spider-Verse/X-Men/Umbrella Academy all of the Bat Family and make them more interesting and separate entirely from Batman/Wayne, to allow him to be the loner vigilante character. It's sort of annoying to me that it seems like the only way for a non-Batman character to make an impression is by dying, or by being a token character so the cast isn't exclusively white men who is immediately discarded and never mentioned again the moment they're inconvenient (see: Batwoman, Batwing).

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    It's only watering down in the wrong hands. It should be watering up, as in feeding it like you would a plant or any living organism. That's why Dick & Damian are the exception because they are the only ones who have been written well by multiple writers, and even then really only Morrison and Tomasi. Whether you like Tom King's run or not, I don't think it's debatable that his scenes with the Bat Family were fantastic. That's what people want, people like me anyway. It's not some uncrackable formula, or some bold new invention. It's a straight forward concept -- a team that's also a family -- but in this case, instead of being mutants, or turtles, they are a goth grief group / ninja detective agency funded by an eccentric billionaire.

    Group dynamics can be reductive, or it can be productive. It's not either thing definitively. Ideally you use the group to explore the individual and vice versa. Umbrella Academy is basically doing a wacky parody version of what the Bat Family / Robins Inc or whatever book ought to have always been. So I know what you're saying. Usually by putting them together, they seem to be reduced to like 2 or 3 traits. It's because they don't interact often enough to develop beyond that with each other. Dick & Damian got a lot of page time together. Dick & Tim would be second place. That's why those relationships are looked at fondly.
    Dick and Damian are exceptions because the design behind them are different. Damian was created as a parody of Bruce, not as a replacement of Dick. Dick and Damian are inherently easier to write together. Dick for example doesn't have to lose IQ points or play the boy scout straight man. They instead complemented each other as they fully are, and from pretty much the initial sales pitch of them as a tandem.

    Umbrella Academy and it's character's were created as an ensemble, the Robin's were not and have decades of development without the other Robin's in mind. The more they are together, the more they're natural redundancies are evident. So to avoid that they have to walk them back. The more they interact, the more they push the simplified boy band versions, and the more readers start to actually accept those reduced versions of those characters. Now can they do a Robins book with them all as the complete characters we have seen them to be, sure its not impossible i guess, but it think it would be very difficult and its not something i see being done with a high likelihood. Nor do i even see the benefit to them all being packaged together.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 08-14-2020 at 06:07 AM.

  14. #284
    Fantastic Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    It's only watering down in the wrong hands. It should be watering up, as in feeding it like you would a plant or any living organism. That's why Dick & Damian are the exception because they are the only ones who have been written well by multiple writers, and even then really only Morrison and Tomasi.
    Did Tomasi ever wrote Dick and Damian? From what I know, his forte is Bruce and Damian team up, with his Batman and Robin on New52, Supersons, and Tec' issue 1003. On my knowledge, notable writers of Dick and Damian team-up is Morrison, Dini, and Seeley. There are some good issues of Dickbats and Damian Robin, like Eight Deadly Sin or Gates of Gotham, but I don't remember the writers.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregpersons View Post
    Dick & Damian got a lot of page time together. Dick & Tim would be second place. That's why those relationships are looked at fondly.
    Dick and Jason are also pretty popular team-up, it gets adapted on Titans. Tim and Jason have a great relationship on New52, but sadly when Rebirth started it went forgotten. And I think it's not very popular, many fans still just remember that Jason always call Tim 'replacement' even though that's already many years ago. Don't think Damian and Tim ever had team up because DC is too coward to resolve conflict between them even though clearly on recent era they've already respected each other.
    And we should just forget that Damian and Jason team ups on current TT are ever happened. It's like double execution for both Damian and Jason, and considering that the runs are supposed to be Damian's character assassination ground on behalf of "confrontation between father and son that will alter the very course of the DC Universe", I just feel sorry for Jason to get roped on there.
    Last edited by Light of Justice; 08-14-2020 at 06:19 AM.

  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    Did Tomasi ever wrote Dick and Damian? From what I know, his forte is Bruce and Damian team up, with his Batman and Robin on New52, Supersons, and Tec' issue 1003. On my knowledge, notable writers of Dick and Damian team-up is Morrison, Dini, and Seeley. There are some good issues of Dickbats and Damian Robin, like Eight Deadly Sin or Gates of Gotham, but I don't remember the writers.
    He took over B&R after Morrison.

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