Can the MCU survive without the original Avengers?

[Blind Wedjat]

-this entire post-

I also think some people have a hard time admitting what they like is generally low brow entertainment. And there's a lot of projecting that goes on too.

[Castle]

That artistic approach nonsense is just a way for fans to peddle their bad opinions. The second you see someone strain themselves to praise freaking Venom you know their points on artistic merit and quality are BS. Venom was hot mess but it was fun. Literally nobody can take anything seriously someone saying is about MCU while praising Venom exactly the type of movie the MCU makes that is being real.

Also Keeping it real why the f*ck are you looking for high art from comic books movies, Comic books in generally is low brow surface level entertainment. Turning comics in the movies/tv shows provides opportunity to lift often mediocre 2 dimensional content in something more because they are force to put things in a real world and work out flaws with stories who aren't trying to be that deep hiding behind of comic books inherent silliness. I have seen writers put on a master class in plot and dialogue in a story in comics and 50% thread was asking were the action was at and 40% thread was mad that Jean Grey didn't have a great showing.

The point is Comics aren't that deep and hitting on "Thor and Hulk doing something cool" is what people walking into movie to wanting happen. Empyre X-men is literally telling a story of Plants versus Zombies and people are here wondering why aren't getting auteur filming making in MCU. It is cool when they tell of one great comic stories or elevate content to something better but most people are walking into a expecting the silly guys in costumes to do fun stuff. The thing most people are mad about Avengers endgame wasn't that time travel wasn't coherent , It was Hulk didn't get Revenge on Thanos. Captain America saying Avengers Assemble and lifting Thor hammer were bigger moments than almost everything. Comic books are greasy fast food, Movies made from that content is going produce to be greasy fast food not gourmet food.

Comics is capable of giving use stuff like the Killing Joke, Born Again, Watchmen, The Dark Knight Returns, God Love Man Kills, Demon in a Bottle,etc but on whole stories aren't that quality. And looking for the genre that is giving you stuff Empyre and Dark Nights :Metal to give you these serious quality content stretching it. I call out some of comic books great stories in a couple sentences back and I guarantee the words Wolverine vs Hulk will get fans more excited than of those things. MCU is going to be just fine.

The artistic approach is far from nonsense and usually when you see someone ignoring that they are ignoring some bad issues in a franchise that is only getting bigger. All franchises have good and bad issues and over the course of time one side will begin to raise its head more, the people that think mcu cannot survive without the original 6 avengers should care more about mcu surviving as an artistic franchise instead of becoming something else. MCU now is like the Jurassic Park franchise. its just there to make money. Its not bringing anything new or exciting to comic movies and comic genre usually depends on new things to survive.

You think its bad opinions but how bad is that opinions when you think right now MCU Spiderman cannot measure to the greatness of the first two movies because those movies were more artistic. what is stopping MCU from been better than Spiderman 1 and 2? I will tell you why. MCU has no true artistic direction for Spiderman and Disney has a well oiled machine.

I saw something on screenrant that said, MCU should go in another direction because they will never top Logan as the best Xmen film. Even Days of future past that is now on disney plus made many people see some of the core difference between a typical MCU movie and another marvel movie that is driven by artistic direction instead of just following a monopoly formula.

You know what this mean? if MCU lets go of the 6 original Avengers and try to bring Spiderman and X-Men in particular as people here are suggesting as their next big guns they will not survive. Spiderman in the MCU right now is less interesting. The movies are only making money because its Spiderman.

I never praised venom completely but i admire the risk and boldness that a marvel film did something different. Venon is a bigger artistic achievement than Far from and Homecoming. neither films are even on the same level of artistic excellent as Spiderverse. If Venom sequels gets better and makes more money, MCU Spiderman will become less irrelevant. he won't survive and Sony will easily take him out of the MCU.

You may not take it seriously but clearly many people do. As for the 6 original Avengers, you can tell some of them were fed up in the role. Mostly RDJ. And I am sure part of the reason was because the franchise can go nowhere unlike a franchise like Batman that can go from Joker to the Dark knight to Dawn of justice. It may not be a smooth run for Batman but at least his franchise is not limited or stuck and that is what MCU is now, can they survive? money? yes. everything else?

[Agent Z]

It was a distinction to highlight why some characters who are safely in the realm of fantasy flow better than others where reality impinges too much to make them work as conventional figures of the same genre. Criticizing Iron Man and the Punisher for the political baggage of their story doesn't mean that every other hero in the genre has the same issues and problems.

If the comparison to Wolverine bothers you so much, let's look at Watchmen instead, at the end of the story, Moore shows Dan Dreiberg and Laurie continue to operate as superheroes because those characters are tied to parts of the genre which Moore sees as charming and purely genre-specific, i.e. Nite Owl's gadgets and gizmos and impractical tech, and as such harmless. Whereas the characters of Rorschach, Ozymandias, The Comedian all of whom are archetypes tied to problematic real-life implications (one being a vigilante objectivist, another a capitalist-superhero with a God complex, the third as an egomaniacal government operative) don't end the story as heroes or plausible alternatives for the genre anymore. Even the greatest deconstruction in superhero comics makes that distinction. Moore's point in Watchmen wasn't that superheroes suck period, just that the genre works only in a very limited and humble mode.

Tony Stark in the comics before RDJ used to be closer to Dan Dreiberg (also an inventor and entrepreneur with gadgets and tech but with a certain amount of personal niceness and vulnerability) at least around the early 80s or so (i am thinking of the character in Jim Shooter's and Michelinie's run). But the movie version is closer to Ozymandias. So if writers retool Tony and bring him nearer to Dreiberg, he can work.

Stark has worked just fine the way the MCU has written him. The comparisons to Ozymandias are shallow and inaccurate at best.

[Holt]

Ya'll gotta stop feeding obvious trolls.

[chicago_bastard]

The artistic approach is far from nonsense and usually when you see someone ignoring that they are ignoring some bad issues in a franchise that is only getting bigger. All franchises have good and bad issues and over the course of time one side will begin to raise its head more, the people that think mcu cannot survive without the original 6 avengers should care more about mcu surviving as an artistic franchise instead of becoming something else. MCU now is like the Jurassic Park franchise. its just there to make money. Its not bringing anything new or exciting to comic movies and comic genre usually depends on new things to survive.

You think its bad opinions but how bad is that opinions when you think right now MCU Spiderman cannot measure to the greatness of the first two movies because those movies were more artistic. what is stopping MCU from been better than Spiderman 1 and 2? I will tell you why. MCU has no true artistic direction for Spiderman and Disney has a well oiled machine.

I saw something on screenrant that said, MCU should go in another direction because they will never top Logan as the best Xmen film. Even Days of future past that is now on disney plus made many people see some of the core difference between a typical MCU movie and another marvel movie that is driven by artistic direction instead of just following a monopoly formula.

You know what this mean? if MCU lets go of the 6 original Avengers and try to bring Spiderman and X-Men in particular as people here are suggesting as their next big guns they will not survive. Spiderman in the MCU right now is less interesting. The movies are only making money because its Spiderman.

I never praised venom completely but i admire the risk and boldness that a marvel film did something different. Venon is a bigger artistic achievement than Far from and Homecoming. neither films are even on the same level of artistic excellent as Spiderverse. If Venom sequels gets better and makes more money, MCU Spiderman will become less irrelevant. he won't survive and Sony will easily take him out of the MCU.

You may not take it seriously but clearly many people do. As for the 6 original Avengers, you can tell some of them were fed up in the role. Mostly RDJ. And I am sure part of the reason was because the franchise can go nowhere unlike a franchise like Batman that can go from Joker to the Dark knight to Dawn of justice. It may not be a smooth run for Batman but at least his franchise is not limited or stuck and that is what MCU is now, can they survive? money? yes. everything else?

You know that Days of Future Past, Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy or friggin Venom (just lol) being of higher artistic merit is basically just your opinion, not a fact, right?

If we wanted to get a somehow objective picture we could look at a profession whose job it is to judge movies on their artistic merit, called film critics, and we would see that MCU movies are rated higher among critics than Raimi's trilogy or the Fox X-Men franchise: https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com...ranchise-ever/

Then we could look at the most important film awards and see that Black Panther alone has more Academy Award nominees and wins than all X-Men movies, Raimi Spider-Man films, and friggin Venom put together.

So yeah, you are entitled to your opinion like anybody else but maybe you should start treating it as such instead of claiming your opinion is a fact, because many people concerned with measuring the artistic merit of movies don't seem to agree with it.

[Flash Gordon]

Also Keeping it real why the f*ck are you looking for high art from comic books movies, Comic books in generally is low brow surface level entertainment. Turning comics in the movies/tv shows provides opportunity to lift often mediocre 2 dimensional content in something more because they are force to put things in a real world and work out flaws with stories who aren't trying to be that deep hiding behind of comic books inherent silliness. I have seen writers put on a master class in plot and dialogue in a story in comics and 50% thread was asking were the action was at and 40% thread was mad that Jean Grey didn't have a great showing.

The point is Comics aren't that deep and hitting on "Thor and Hulk doing something cool" is what people walking into movie to wanting happen. Empyre X-men is literally telling a story of Plants versus Zombies and people are here wondering why aren't getting auteur filming making in MCU. It is cool when they tell of one great comic stories or elevate content to something better but most people are walking into a expecting the silly guys in costumes to do fun stuff. The thing most people are mad about Avengers endgame wasn't that time travel wasn't coherent , It was Hulk didn't get Revenge on Thanos. Captain America saying Avengers Assemble and lifting Thor hammer were bigger moments than almost everything. Comic books are greasy fast food, Movies made from that content is going produce to be greasy fast food not gourmet food.

I know you're referring to mainstream American superhero comics when you say "comics", but comic books are much more than that.

It's also reductive to think that something can't be "fun" and also "interesting".

These big flicks are also huge parts of the popular culture, so they should be looked at and peered into. Discussed.

[Gripstir]

That artistic approach nonsense is just a way for fans to peddle their bad opinions. The second you see someone strain themselves to praise freaking Venom you know their points on artistic merit and quality are BS. Venom was hot mess but it was fun. Literally nobody can take anything seriously someone saying is about MCU while praising Venom exactly the type of movie the MCU makes that is being real.

Also Keeping it real why the f*ck are you looking for high art from comic books movies, Comic books in generally is low brow surface level entertainment. Turning comics in the movies/tv shows provides opportunity to lift often mediocre 2 dimensional content in something more because they are force to put things in a real world and work out flaws with stories who aren't trying to be that deep hiding behind of comic books inherent silliness. I have seen writers put on a master class in plot and dialogue in a story in comics and 50% thread was asking were the action was at and 40% thread was mad that Jean Grey didn't have a great showing.

The point is Comics aren't that deep and hitting on "Thor and Hulk doing something cool" is what people walking into movie to wanting happen. Empyre X-men is literally telling a story of Plants versus Zombies and people are here wondering why aren't getting auteur filming making in MCU. It is cool when they tell of one great comic stories or elevate content to something better but most people are walking into a expecting the silly guys in costumes to do fun stuff. The thing most people are mad about Avengers endgame wasn't that time travel wasn't coherent , It was Hulk didn't get Revenge on Thanos. Captain America saying Avengers Assemble and lifting Thor hammer were bigger moments than almost everything. Comic books are greasy fast food, Movies made from that content is going produce to be greasy fast food not gourmet food.

Comics is capable of giving use stuff like the Killing Joke, Born Again, Watchmen, The Dark Knight Returns, God Love Man Kills, Demon in a Bottle,etc but on whole stories aren't that quality. And looking for the genre that is giving you stuff Empyre and Dark Nights :Metal to give you these serious quality content stretching it. I call out some of comic books great stories in a couple sentences back and I guarantee the words Wolverine vs Hulk will get fans more excited than of those things. MCU is going to be just fine.

I agree with this in terms of comics are meant to be more fun than anything but at the same time that's why Venom is a success and you're not giving it credit for that. While I definitely think Venom is remarkably flawed, I think the thing that made it flawed was trying to be too much like the MCU. I would love for the original R rated movie to get released. The cut Tom Hardy screamed about on Twitter for not releasing. In addition I think the reason Venom does not get hate, when maybe the movie warrants more hate, is that nobody is offended by the movie. It kept politics out of the movie and people of all walks of life could just watch and escape for a little while. I think especially now with controversial characters like Captain Marvel, Falcon and other less popular characters people were just happy that they could see a movie that didn't try to stick it to its audience. I explain the same thing about Wonder Woman. It was a pretty bad movie because it just stole another movie's plot and put a woman in front but at the same time it was a movie that cared more about itself being good rather than crying about other people being bad. And that's what Venom and Wonder Woman have in common.

[Killerbee911]

I know you're referring to mainstream American superhero comics when you say "comics", but comic books are much more than that.

It's also reductive to think that something can't be "fun" and also "interesting".

These big flicks are also huge parts of the popular culture, so they should be looked at and peered into. Discussed.

Even mainstream superhero comics CAN be mature and thought provoking too BUT most of the stuff isn't that is just being honest. I love HoxPox was smart well done story just as much as I love AvX which was a set up for a big dumb fun superhero fight that we all dream about as kids.Part of enjoying comics is recognizing when you are getting either one.

The superhero genre has elements that make it push action over story and that doesn't lead to consistent great stories. Genre consistently picks action over deep story and character development.Plus being stuck limbo between selling to kids and being mature screws things up as well.

Something can be fun and interesting but when something is clearly designed to be more based in action than smart plot. I don't expect movies about it to be high art. Logan being a smart and pretty deep movie was cool but old man Logan story which it was loosed based was a more typical comic take and nothing about the source material gets you that movie. And that is point some people seems to be mad that Marvel is giving you these light plot but action heavy fun movies but that is what the source material is and that is what genre is mostly.

[Lee Stone]

The originals would only need to not be used for a phase or two.
Then they could get new actors and there would be enough distance between their earlier appearances that viewers will be more accepting of the cast changes.

So it's pretty necessary to have periods where some characters aren't used.

Marvel has a lot of characters they could use in the meantime.

I'm still waiting to see She-Hulk, Spider-Woman, Black Knight (he's coming), Namor (maybe some day), Clea (she's coming), Moon Knight (coming, sort of), Hercules, Moondragon, Tigra and Sersi (coming, I think?)...

[Castle]

You know that Days of Future Past, Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy or friggin Venom (just lol) being of higher artistic merit is basically just your opinion, not a fact, right?
.

MCU Has become too much of a monopoly coperate junk. this is not good for any long term, survival plan. monopoly films are the opposite of artistic merit. Sam Raimi spiderman movies was his own thing.

If we wanted to get a somehow objective picture we could look at a profession whose job it is to judge movies on their artistic merit, called film critics, and we would see that MCU movies are rated higher among critics than Raimi's trilogy or the Fox X-Men franchise: https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com...ranchise-ever/

Rotten tomatoes is garbage. Remember Joker? has the same RT as Hulk and Thor 2, still Joker is a superior film to any MCU movie. you do know critics have lost so much because it has gotten very obvious they play pet with MCU.

So yeah, you are entitled to your opinion like anybody else but maybe you should start treating it as such instead of claiming your opinion is a fact, because many people concerned with measuring the artistic merit of movies don't seem to agree with it.

Many people that are concerned with artistic merit never mention RT. Do you think Ant Man movies have the same artistic achievement or creative pay off risk as the Deadpool movies because Ant Man has higher RT score. lol, what Hollywood film guy told us this.

Like or hate it, Venom 2 would have more curiosity to the film than Spiderman Homecoming 3 and surely Sony would ask again was the point of lending out spiderman when he can be a greater addition with Venom and you know who MCU are counting on next to be their big guns. Spiderman, Black Panther and Captain Marvel but the more MCU releases their Spiderman movies, the more popular the Sam Raimi Spiderman movies become. It should tell you something is wrong with one of their next big characters.

[Castle]

Stark has worked just fine the way the MCU has written him. The comparisons to Ozymandias are shallow and inaccurate at best.

Compared to the comics, Stark is a shell of himself in the movies. If anything was shallow is how the movies always ignored the gritter and human flaws of the character. It would be better if MCU retells iron man story in an alternate reality universe that would not be part of the MCU main timeline.An iron man movie from a complete adult theme perspective. MCU wasted RDJ talents. they should have listened to Mickey Rouke's dissatisfaction from Iron Man 2 but am thinking not of that is irrelevant because of RT. If only Iron Man 2 got its deserved score of 41%.

Had RDJ stayed on, he would have cracked. the character was not really growing. MCU seems to be the one franchise that some fans think they can survive just based on a rinse and repeat formula and I put the fault on critics of sending this awful message as I don't think it is that easy, mostly now they now want to attempt to make Blade, X-Men and more Spiderman movies since the original Avengers has put in for retirement.

When the original avengers first came in, they didn't expect anything or even know what they were doing. They were characters most unknown, they were part of a bigger larger cinematic universe that had to come together over and over again. This is a different ball game now.