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  1. #76
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    I don’t mind Luthor having one good niece: Lori.

    And one possible evil niece: Nathalsia

    The question is which Lena should be the “moral compass” in his life?

    His sister Lena or his daughter Lena.
    Last edited by Will Evans; 09-05-2020 at 06:39 PM.

  2. #77
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    Lex should never be a father. Nor should he be slightly above average human intelligence. He is a super-genius. too many writers forget that. Btw when the coluans referred to humans being 6th level intelligences they were referring to themselves. They had no reason to even know that earth existed.
    John Martin, citizen & rightful ruler of the omniverse.

  3. #78
    Fantastic Member witchboy's Avatar
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    I really liked Lex as father to Lena, and was disappointed when she was just casually retconed out of existence. There's potential there to do new things with Lex.
    I did have the idea of Lex going to prison or otherwise being gone and leaving Lois as Lena's guardian. That would've provided new complications.

  4. #79
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    One post-crisis thing i never liked was none of Lex's tech was really his. It was all created by employees. Then there is the line followed by too many post-crisis writers. The one that says Superman is nothing but a flying brick & Lex is nothing but a slightly clever guy who lucked into having lots of money.



    I'm sorry, but i prefer Lex as a super-genius. Either as the would be conquerer of everything or remember that he is a super-scientist & have him doing cosmic experiments.
    John Martin, citizen & rightful ruler of the omniverse.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by llozymandias View Post
    One post-crisis thing i never liked was none of Lex's tech was really his. It was all created by employees. Then there is the line followed by too many post-crisis writers. The one that says Superman is nothing but a flying brick & Lex is nothing but a slightly clever guy who lucked into having lots of money.



    I'm sorry, but i prefer Lex as a super-genius. Either as the would be conquerer of everything or remember that he is a super-scientist & have him doing cosmic experiments.
    That's a good point and arguably a big problem with the "genius turned billionaire" trope.

  6. #81
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    Depicting Lex as only hating Superman because Superman is an alien, really does not work. Contrary to what some fans & writers believe, this kind of depiction does not make him a mis-guided good guy. It makes him an incredibly deluded moron. Lex as a mis-guided good guy also does not work. Fans of this depiction think it leads to two story possiblities. The first one is the villain does a good deed. It works better if there is major shock value. A mis-guided good guy doing a good deed, has no real shock to it. It's kind of expected to happen at some point. However if the villain doing the good deed is pretty much evil incarnate, then there is plenty of shock value. These same points workk also pertain to stories where the villain decides to reform & become a good person.
    John Martin, citizen & rightful ruler of the omniverse.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by llozymandias View Post
    Depicting Lex as only hating Superman because Superman is an alien, really does not work. Contrary to what some fans & writers believe, this kind of depiction does not make him a mis-guided good guy. It makes him an incredibly deluded moron. Lex as a mis-guided good guy also does not work. Fans of this depiction think it leads to two story possiblities. The first one is the villain does a good deed. It works better if there is major shock value. A mis-guided good guy doing a good deed, has no real shock to it. It's kind of expected to happen at some point. However if the villain doing the good deed is pretty much evil incarnate, then there is plenty of shock value. These same points workk also pertain to stories where the villain decides to reform & become a good person.
    But where is the line between "evil incarnate" and "still has good in him". If you try to keep his good deeds as "shock value" then it comes off as a plot trick rather than characterization. Stuff like "cares for his sister/daughter" or "has a line even he won't cross" require being shown or hinted at to be real characterization and undercut painting him as simply "evil incarnate". On the other hand having him experiment on puppies and steal candy from babies except for one random good deed every so often just to make him unpredictable seems more like bad writing.

  8. #83
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    But where is the line between "evil incarnate" and "still has good in him". If you try to keep his good deeds as "shock value" then it comes off as a plot trick rather than characterization. Stuff like "cares for his sister/daughter" or "has a line even he won't cross" require being shown or hinted at to be real characterization and undercut painting him as simply "evil incarnate". On the other hand having him experiment on puppies and steal candy from babies except for one random good deed every so often just to make him unpredictable seems more like bad writing.
    You can be "evil incarnate" & still have some good in you. I imagine that most of Lex's good deeds are done in such a way that nobody can connect them to him. Or he does them as part of a scheme/plan. the shock is the rare genuine good deed that everyone knows was done by Lex.
    Last edited by llozymandias; 09-21-2020 at 10:36 PM.
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  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    If an antagonist doesn't provide conflict, some level of introspection and makes people see a point in counter arguments. Then antagonist is'nt very good. I believe lex should make people rethink superman as a concept itself. You don't need a guy to look upto. Stand on your own damn feet. Seek power and acquire a power stone, fight the would be savior for not succumbing to a dead end. Let human potential and effort be paramount.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    If an antagonist doesn't provide conflict, some level of introspection and makes people see a point in counter arguments. Then antagonist is'nt very good. I believe lex should make people rethink superman as a concept itself. You don't need a guy to look upto. Stand on your own damn feet. Seek power and acquire a power stone, fight the would be savior for not succumbing to a dead end. Let human potential and effort be paramount.
    Why can’t he just try to blow up the Earth?

    /s

    More seriously, why would anything he do be representative of human potential? He’s a villain. Arguably, it shows mankind’s potential for self-destruction.

  11. #86
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Why can’t he just try to blow up the Earth?

    /s

    More seriously, why would anything he do be representative of human potential? He’s a villain. Arguably, it shows mankind’s potential for self-destruction.
    A man could be great yet not be good.i picture lex like this.

    “Curious indeed how these things happen. The wand chooses the wizard, remember...I think we must expect great things from you, Mr. Potter... After all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things — terrible, yes, but great.”

    To destroy itself, you need potential. Incompetence and complacency cannot even bring about self destruction . Man's capacity to do great, yet terrible things should be underlined by lex.Lex should make us pause on the whole "be not afraid of greatness" concept and actually examine what it means to be great. Even clark himself needs to do that.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-22-2020 at 09:14 AM.

  12. #87
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    Siegel wrote Lex as having the grand ambition to become "king of the world". Of course he was using world in its original meaning. So "king of the world" really meant king of everything. I refer to Lex as being evil incarnate when in villain mode. Meaning that he is very ruthless in persuing his goals.
    John Martin, citizen & rightful ruler of the omniverse.

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Luthor actually doesn't care that Superman is an alien (he cares about how insignificant he makes him feel, certainly, but he could care less about where he's from) however he absolutely loathes how everyone misunderstands his hate for the Man of Tomorrow as xenophobia. I actually like the idea that he finds any sort of xenophobia or racism exceptionally unenlightened and beneath him and just by existing, Superman inadvertently drags him down to that level in the eyes of the world. Essentially, his hate for Superman makes him come across as something he himself cannot stand and that just makes him so much angrier which only digs him deeper.

    I think he loads every "alien" directed at Clark to dig at his apparent desire to be a man of the people, but I don't really think he buys into it. He just wants to take anything he can from Clark, including his desire to truly be one of us, which I'm sure he's inferred to some degree if even subconsciously from all his speeches and actions.

    I feel like everyone just wants him to be the biggest corporate raider lategame Capitalist old money type, though, so this feels like a hot take which it may very well not be.

  14. #89
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    I think Luthor really can't stand that Superman is better than him in most ways. I'm sure we've all felt jealous of others who seem better than us or happier. I've felt it, but I get over it when I realize that nobody is perfect and we all have our issues one way or another.

    Luthor loves the power, but Superman is more powerful than he ever could. Superman is also more charming and more handsome lol.

  15. #90
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Here's another one.

    Elliot Magin's Luthor sucks and is a terrible take on the character.
    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    Them's fighting words, sir.
    They really are lol. Maggin is seen by some as a top 5 Superman writer, and from what I've sampled I can see why (just ordered Miracle Monday last night). His Lex is one of the highlights in the stories I've read.
    What makes him interesting from a modern perspective is that he just views the things that post-COIE Lex cared about (money, luxury, women) with utter disinterest. He doesn't view any of that as real power and considered it beneath him. His redeemable qualities make him more effective as a tragic antagonist because he could have very easily represented us (mankind) at our best, but his petty ego leads him down a path to represent us at our worst. I can see the inspiration in All-Star's Lex (the first time the character ever interested me) in stuff like Maggin's.

    Much like the Joker, I think Lex was a better character in the Bronze Age than he was afterward.

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