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  1. #136
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    How? It isn't like Luthor's character is dependent on anything other than Superman.


    Without the super-intelligence, Lex is not Lex.
    John Martin, citizen & rightful ruler of the omniverse.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by llozymandias View Post
    Without the super-intelligence, Lex is not Lex.
    I thought fantastic elements referred to other aliens and metahumans.

  3. #138
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Luthor's a hypocrite. He likes to think he's above human weaknesses and pettiness when he isn't. YJ got that part down in season 3 and this kind of thing is consistent with Greg Weisman's work when it comes to villains.
    Taking three whole seasons to show his hypocrisy is too much though, specially considering how season 1 had the perfect opportunity to make him go for a petty revenge when Conner played him like a fiddle, but nah, they decided to make him do that in season 3, in a way less personal situation where he only lost some money from it.

    I both like and dislike that moment, like because it somewhat tones down Luthor's insufferable Villain Sue trait that The Light usually has, dislike because, it's not a good situation for it to show up, when a more fitting one happened before.

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Taking three whole seasons to show his hypocrisy is too much though, specially considering how season 1 had the perfect opportunity to make him go for a petty revenge when Conner played him like a fiddle, but nah, they decided to make him do that in season 3, in a way less personal situation where he only lost some money from it.

    I both like and dislike that moment, like because it somewhat tones down Luthor's insufferable Villain Sue trait that The Light usually has, dislike because, it's not a good situation for it to show up, when a more fitting one happened before.
    The Light were only "villain sues" in season 1 where the heroes were mostly ignorant of who their true enemies were. They've been taking major losses since the end of season 1. They've been successful for as long as they have because they don't attack the heroes in public like your typical supervillain but that only has so many advantages when the heroes know who they are.

    Lex's reaction in season 3 is likely due to the fact that this was the second time he'd been personally duped. His hypocrisy was pretty much displayed when it was revealed that he and the rest of the Light were working with Darkseid.

  5. #140
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The Light were only "villain sues" in season 1 where the heroes were mostly ignorant of who their true enemies were. They've been taking major losses since the end of season 1. They've been successful for as long as they have because they don't attack the heroes in public like your typical supervillain but that only has so many advantages when the heroes know who they are.
    Ironically they were somewhat less insufferable in season 1, if only because such smart villains was new, and a lot of their plans were actually good, though even in that, episodes ending with "haha, we didn't actually lose" so much got old really fast.

    And yeah, I know that the reason they were so powerful is because the heroes didn't know who they were, and how big their reach is, but it gets really frustrating when the whole thing is so ridiculously one sided, plans are usually less interesting by default if vague, and The Light only had vague, pretty much perfect plans, that the heroes could only really compete with them in the season finale (Which season 1 got a really bad asspull for them to manage to thwart their plans), so yeah, while it was definitely understandable they had the advantage, making the conflict so one sided just isn't fun, and nowadays the heroes know every Light Leader, or at the very least the majority of them (Not sure if they all were in that meeting with the Reach), and, it makes no difference, heroes still can't do much **** against them.

    And in season 2 they were mostly villain sues too, even though Kaldur'ahm outsmarted them so badly, The Light never was going to keep that deal with the Reach anyways, since the Warworld coming to Earth was partially used to ruin the Reach's reputation on Earth (In a horrible, horrible plan that if it failed, Earth would be nuked, not only destroying The Light's plan of making Earth into a feared super power, but killing everyone too), so the heroes interfering with that didn't hurt them much, and they never explain why The Light teamed up with the Reach anyways, only benefit they got from it was getting Warworld, which they got anyways, so they ended season 2 better than 1, since season 1 actually foiled their plans, in season 2 they lost some leaders but got Warworld, and since the captured leaders didn't give the heroes any advantage over The Light in season 3, and the leaders were just replaced, The Light won more than they lost.

    Lex's reaction in season 3 is likely due to the fact that this was the second time he'd been personally duped.
    That'd be a good explanation, making Lex a character so used to winning that taking losses can end up making him commit mistakes for not really knowing how to handle it, but unfortunately, they don't make the scene look like that, so he just suddenly gets a flaw.

    His hypocrisy was pretty much displayed when it was revealed that he and the rest of the Light were working with Darkseid.
    I don't see how, 'cause the hypocrisy I'm talking about is "Revenge is a sucker's game", only for him in season 3 to not follow his mantra, teaming up with Darkseid has nothing to do with that, more of a case of weird pragmatism, since that deal with Darkseid means they can get his help in some situations for some reason, like when that Starro army invaded Earth, plus it delays when Darkseid is gonna come to Earth.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Ironically they were somewhat less insufferable in season 1, if only because such smart villains was new, and a lot of their plans were actually good, though even in that, episodes ending with "haha, we didn't actually lose" so much got old really fast.

    And yeah, I know that the reason they were so powerful is because the heroes didn't know who they were, and how big their reach is, but it gets really frustrating when the whole thing is so ridiculously one sided, plans are usually less interesting by default if vague, and The Light only had vague, pretty much perfect plans, that the heroes could only really compete with them in the season finale (Which season 1 got a really bad asspull for them to manage to thwart their plans), so yeah, while it was definitely understandable they had the advantage, making the conflict so one sided just isn't fun, and nowadays the heroes know every Light Leader, or at the very least the majority of them (Not sure if they all were in that meeting with the Reach), and, it makes no difference, heroes still can't do much **** against them.

    And in season 2 they were mostly villain sues too, even though Kaldur'ahm outsmarted them so badly, The Light never was going to keep that deal with the Reach anyways, since the Warworld coming to Earth was partially used to ruin the Reach's reputation on Earth (In a horrible, horrible plan that if it failed, Earth would be nuked, not only destroying The Light's plan of making Earth into a feared super power, but killing everyone too), so the heroes interfering with that didn't hurt them much, and they never explain why The Light teamed up with the Reach anyways, only benefit they got from it was getting Warworld, which they got anyways, so they ended season 2 better than 1, since season 1 actually foiled their plans, in season 2 they lost some leaders but got Warworld, and since the captured leaders didn't give the heroes any advantage over The Light in season 3, and the leaders were just replaced, The Light won more than they lost.



    That'd be a good explanation, making Lex a character so used to winning that taking losses can end up making him commit mistakes for not really knowing how to handle it, but unfortunately, they don't make the scene look like that, so he just suddenly gets a flaw.



    I don't see how, 'cause the hypocrisy I'm talking about is "Revenge is a sucker's game", only for him in season 3 to not follow his mantra, teaming up with Darkseid has nothing to do with that, more of a case of weird pragmatism, since that deal with Darkseid means they can get his help in some situations for some reason, like when that Starro army invaded Earth, plus it delays when Darkseid is gonna come to Earth.
    Kaldur was able to infiltrate their ranks and subvert them from within. He had all of them fooled, including two guys older modern civilization.

    The Reach was giving the Light metahumans.

    It seemed pretty obvious to me that Lex's reaction was because he was so used to winning. Perhaps they could have spelled it out more but I don't think it was really all that subtle.

    I was speaking more of being a hypocrite in general by claiming to be fighting for humanity yet allying with someone who clearly doesn't have humans' best interests at heart.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 11-08-2020 at 11:40 PM.

  7. #142
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Kaldur was able to infiltrate their ranks and subvert them from within. He had all of them fooled, including two guys older modern civilization.
    Yeah, Kaldur'ahm had that nice moment, but it barely slowed down The Light.

    The Reach was giving the Light metahumans.
    Oh yeah, they were the ones who even found out about the meta gene, huge detail for me to have forgotten... Damn brain lol.

    Either way, by the end, The Light clearly didn't need them anymore, they had already double crossed the Reach, and season 3 has them doing meta human trafficking rather easily.

    It seemed pretty obvious to me that Lex's reaction was because he was so used to winning. Perhaps they could have spelled it out more but I don't think it was really all that subtle.
    I meant what you said not being mentioned, that being outwitted once again is why he suddenly made a mistake when last time he didn't, they made it clear that he was being petty, but didn't even hint that he had a grudge from the last time he was outwitted, so again, it made Lex suddenly get a flaw that he clearly didn't have before.

    I was speaking more of being a hypocrite in general by claiming to be fighting for humanity yet allying with someone who clearly doesn't have humans' best interests at heart.
    Oh, in that case we don't even need season 2's ending to show that much, they have Klarion there, and it's not like Joker where they just used him and other villains to get the League out of their trail, Klarion is one of The Light's leaders for some reason, and he clearly doesn't give a crap about making humanity better, he's there just for shits and giggles.

  8. #143
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    So I red Superman and his Incredible Fortress of Solitude today.

    https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/DC_Special_Series_Vol_1_26

    There's a lot to unpack here.
    Written by Roy Thomas, Lex, in disguise as Dominus until the end, stages an elaborate fan to kill Superman while blowing up the Earth.
    That is the most extreme evil Earth 1 Lex I've ever read. It's out of character to the point that it's bad writing imo. Lex and his minion are planning to use the destruction to power a craft that will send them to what sounds like Earth Prime.
    We have previously had a story where Lex was willing to die to kill Superman, but destroy the Earth? With his sister Lena on it, and no mention of a plan to preserve her life? No way.
    It's also noteworthy that in his disguise as Dominus, Lex is kind of queer coded. Besides the flamboyancy of his red armor and cape, he calls his minion "Dear Roger". That made me realize that Lex isn't generally queer coded (well, besides for Smallville where the magnificent Michael Rosenbaum had crazy sexual chemistry with almost everyone).
    The oversized tabloid format makes for a a widescreen experience, and the plot is really just window dressing for Superman to give the reader a tour of his fortress, but Lex being so wildly out of character did take me out of the story.

  9. #144
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    Silver age Lex embodies the phrase : " he was a good man once". That means he was good, but is now evil. It does not mean mis-guided good guy. As i say when Lex is in villain mode, he is evil incarnate. Also when he is in good guy mode he is a hero. The thing is that he is very rarely in good guy mode.
    John Martin, citizen & rightful ruler of the omniverse.

  10. #145
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    Pre-coie Lex Luthor was very much goal-oriented. Once he had a goal he would not stop until he achieved it. His main goal was to be king of the world. Killing Superman became his obsession, because Superman was nothing but an obstacle to everything that Lex wanted to do.
    John Martin, citizen & rightful ruler of the omniverse.

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