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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by llozymandias View Post
    One thing that strikes me about the stories from 38-40 (or so) is that they don't match the years they were published in. The first Luthor story doesn't make sense if it actually takes place in 1940. After all in 1940 europe was already at war. It occurs to me that Jerry Siegel might have already written those stories years earlier. In the period between 1934 & 1938 when they were shopping the character around.
    I have an alternative theory, which is based on the observation that Siegel published kind of a lot of Superman Goes To War stories prior to the US' entry into WWII, but after the war had already started in Europe. Moreover, the wars in Superman comics in those days never seem to involve the US at this stage, Lois and Clark go abroad to fictional countries to cover them.

    My theory is that it was Jerry and Joe using their strip to comment on global issues. War wasn't some hypothetical possibility, it was something happening Right Now as Jerry wrote it; it was a Really Big Deal. And of all the things you can say about Jerry Siegel, you cannot say he didn't try to be topical.

    Also in one of the wars from the newspaper strip in probably either 1939 or 1940, one of the leaders looks exactly like Adolf Hitler. His name was Amork, I believe, and the story re-used the ending of Action # 2 where Superman forced the two leaders to fight in front of all their men to showcase how ridiculous war is.
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  2. #62
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    Lex Luthor should pay for those 40 cakes that he stole. HE STOLE 40 CAKES FOR GOD SAKE. If it's not the most diabolical thing that he did, what else.

    God! What a dick...

  3. #63
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I have an alternative theory, which is based on the observation that Siegel published kind of a lot of Superman Goes To War stories prior to the US' entry into WWII, but after the war had already started in Europe. Moreover, the wars in Superman comics in those days never seem to involve the US at this stage, Lois and Clark go abroad to fictional countries to cover them.

    My theory is that it was Jerry and Joe using their strip to comment on global issues. War wasn't some hypothetical possibility, it was something happening Right Now as Jerry wrote it; it was a Really Big Deal. And of all the things you can say about Jerry Siegel, you cannot say he didn't try to be topical.

    Also in one of the wars from the newspaper strip in probably either 1939 or 1940, one of the leaders looks exactly like Adolf Hitler. His name was Amork, I believe, and the story re-used the ending of Action # 2 where Superman forced the two leaders to fight in front of all their men to showcase how ridiculous war is.



    I was also thinking of the isolationist tone to a lot of the early stories.
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  4. #64
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    I have some issues with Lex's past.

    As people mentioned Lex knowing Clark prior to him becoming a reporter in Metropolis is kind of fanfic-y and shrinks the world...like a LOT. There's no reason for Lex to even associate with Clark Kent and Smallville.

    I'm not necessarily a fan of Lionel Luthor (Lex's father) being abusive. I feel that bad parenting has become a crutch for most super villainy (the point that Joker used it as a fake story in Mad love shows that it is the oldest trick in the book). I'd like to think that Lex and Lena had ideal childhoods, the fact that Lex (and sometimes Lena) turned out to be horrible people is on well...Lex and (sometimes) Lena.

    While I like mad scientist Lex, I do feel that the corrupt CEO who pretty much built half of Metropolis has its merits as it makes Lex a problem that Clark can't simply just punch out. I feel that the best course of action is to just combine the two.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I have some issues with Lex's past.

    As people mentioned Lex knowing Clark prior to him becoming a reporter in Metropolis is kind of fanfic-y and shrinks the world...like a LOT. There's no reason for Lex to even associate with Clark Kent and Smallville.

    I'm not necessarily a fan of Lionel Luthor (Lex's father) being abusive. I feel that bad parenting has become a crutch for most super villainy (the point that Joker used it as a fake story in Mad love shows that it is the oldest trick in the book). I'd like to think that Lex and Lena had ideal childhoods, the fact that Lex (and sometimes Lena) turned out to be horrible people is on well...Lex and (sometimes) Lena.

    While I like mad scientist Lex, I do feel that the corrupt CEO who pretty much built half of Metropolis has its merits as it makes Lex a problem that Clark can't simply just punch out. I feel that the best course of action is to just combine the two.
    I agree with pretty much everything in this list.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I have some issues with Lex's past.

    As people mentioned Lex knowing Clark prior to him becoming a reporter in Metropolis is kind of fanfic-y and shrinks the world...like a LOT. There's no reason for Lex to even associate with Clark Kent and Smallville.

    I'm not necessarily a fan of Lionel Luthor (Lex's father) being abusive. I feel that bad parenting has become a crutch for most super villainy (the point that Joker used it as a fake story in Mad love shows that it is the oldest trick in the book). I'd like to think that Lex and Lena had ideal childhoods, the fact that Lex (and sometimes Lena) turned out to be horrible people is on well...Lex and (sometimes) Lena.

    While I like mad scientist Lex, I do feel that the corrupt CEO who pretty much built half of Metropolis has its merits as it makes Lex a problem that Clark can't simply just punch out. I feel that the best course of action is to just combine the two.
    I see it as being a bit more of a “if this, than that” thing - if you want Lex to be moderately more sympathetic and tragic and you intend to use that in your story, than he kind of needs something pitiable in his background and an external catalyst for some of his misanthropy and amorality, but if he’s just a loathsome villain, than he works better with few to no pitiable elements in his backstory, and deploying them is a waste of time.

    DCAU Lex had no need of a sympathetic backstory because he was never supposed to be sympathetic, so that worked. Smallville’s Lex was predicated on the idea of a morose and tragic version of his villainy, so Lionel being an emotionally and mentally abusive father worked there. The DCEU Lex doesn’t seem to have been intended as anything more than a cackling madman, so there was no need to give him a Freudian excuse and it arguably wasted time on an already dubious characterization.

    Basically, don’t ever pull a Kylo Ren with Lex - if he’s got a normal, healthy background and becomes a murderous *******, treat him that way, and of you want to treat him as something more than a murder us *******, than give him some kind of unhealthy background. Don’t make a loathsome scum all and then act like we should care about him without some reason in his background.

    A Lex who’s possibly going to pull of a Lexor type of story arc, expresses suspicious frustration and too-strong denial about the optimistic and virtuous nature of Superman, or who is supposed to have complex and conflicted interactions with his sister/children? Deploy Lionel as an explanation for why the audience should have any pity or patience for Lex. A Lex who’s going to heal-then-unheal his sister just to make a point to Conner, or who has no hesitation in handing over baby Lena for power, and who wouldn’t be shaken by Superman saying “I can see your soul”? You could have his living parents scared shitless of him and changing their name to disassociate themselves from him.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

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  7. #67
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    I find the little crumbs of backstory we have for Nasthalthia to be really fascinating.
    Lex has this older sister we never hear anything else about. What is she like? That she named her daughter Nasthalthia gives the impression she's really strange at the least.
    That Nasty uses the Luthor name suggests she was born out of wedlock.
    And there's that backstory that Lex's parents disowned her because she eloped. That's pretty extreme. Either there's a lot more to that story or it gives the impression that the Luthors were pretty judgmental and unforgiving people.
    I read somewhere where someone was saying they wanted to see Lenny Luthor in the comics, and that does sound fun. A fun teen/young adult sidekick for Luthor who is tolerated more than anyone else would be because of family ties. Possible sibling rivalry with Nasty. I'd read a whole series about that Luthor family dynamic.

  8. #68
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    I noticed on Kitty's DC Wiki profile that they explicitly refer to her Lex's snarky lover.
    Was the movie really explicit that they were lovers. While I totally get that Eve Teschmacher and Hackman's Lex were lovers, Kitty and Spacey's Lex felt more like friends. Honestly, they felt more like a gay guy and his best gal pal,and I say that as a gay man. That was the vibe they had.
    Does anybody see those two as lovers beyond the most basic they're a man and a woman sharing scenes in a mainstream movie?


    https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Katherine...erman_Returns)

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I noticed on Kitty's DC Wiki profile that they explicitly refer to her Lex's snarky lover.
    Was the movie really explicit that they were lovers. While I totally get that Eve Teschmacher and Hackman's Lex were lovers, Kitty and Spacey's Lex felt more like friends. Honestly, they felt more like a gay guy and his best gal pal,and I say that as a gay man. That was the vibe they had.
    Does anybody see those two as lovers beyond the most basic they're a man and a woman sharing scenes in a mainstream movie?


    https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Katherine...erman_Returns)
    Never thougth much about it, but we do know Spacey actual orientation, alongside very less say disturbing information about him in real life.
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  10. #70
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    Never thougth much about it, but we do know Spacey actual orientation, alongside very less say disturbing information about him in real life.
    I don't think that Lex is gay just because Spacey is, as gay actors can play convincingly straight all the time. I just happen to get that vibe from Spacey and Posey. I think Spacey was convincing as straight in American Beauty. Maybe he camped it up a bit in Superman Returns seeing it as a camp role.

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I don't think that Lex is gay just because Spacey is, as gay actors can play convincingly straight all the time. I just happen to get that vibe from Spacey and Posey. I think Spacey was convincing as straight in American Beauty. Maybe he camped it up a bit in Superman Returns seeing it as a camp role.
    Yeah in rerrospective it was insulting of my part to think like that, i'm sorry. As for the movie, i do agreed that they come across as lovers, i alwaysngot the idea that Lex just doesb't think much of anyone besides himself, he is not more attached to her that he would be to a pet, but your interpretation is not impossible.
    Last edited by TheCape; 08-22-2020 at 11:37 AM.
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  12. #72
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I have some issues with Lex's past.

    As people mentioned Lex knowing Clark prior to him becoming a reporter in Metropolis is kind of fanfic-y and shrinks the world...like a LOT. There's no reason for Lex to even associate with Clark Kent and Smallville.

    I'm not necessarily a fan of Lionel Luthor (Lex's father) being abusive. I feel that bad parenting has become a crutch for most super villainy (the point that Joker used it as a fake story in Mad love shows that it is the oldest trick in the book). I'd like to think that Lex and Lena had ideal childhoods, the fact that Lex (and sometimes Lena) turned out to be horrible people is on well...Lex and (sometimes) Lena.

    While I like mad scientist Lex, I do feel that the corrupt CEO who pretty much built half of Metropolis has its merits as it makes Lex a problem that Clark can't simply just punch out. I feel that the best course of action is to just combine the two.



    Siegel's Lex did not associate with Clark. He was friends with Superboy. It's very likely that Lex's family moved to Smallville because Superboy was there. Post-coie versions of Siegel's luthor origin story simply don't work. Because they take Superboy out of it.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I see it as being a bit more of a “if this, than that” thing - if you want Lex to be moderately more sympathetic and tragic and you intend to use that in your story, than he kind of needs something pitiable in his background and an external catalyst for some of his misanthropy and amorality, but if he’s just a loathsome villain, than he works better with few to no pitiable elements in his backstory, and deploying them is a waste of time.

    DCAU Lex had no need of a sympathetic backstory because he was never supposed to be sympathetic, so that worked. Smallville’s Lex was predicated on the idea of a morose and tragic version of his villainy, so Lionel being an emotionally and mentally abusive father worked there. The DCEU Lex doesn’t seem to have been intended as anything more than a cackling madman, so there was no need to give him a Freudian excuse and it arguably wasted time on an already dubious characterization.

    Basically, don’t ever pull a Kylo Ren with Lex - if he’s got a normal, healthy background and becomes a murderous *******, treat him that way, and of you want to treat him as something more than a murder us *******, than give him some kind of unhealthy background. Don’t make a loathsome scum all and then act like we should care about him without some reason in his background.

    A Lex who’s possibly going to pull of a Lexor type of story arc, expresses suspicious frustration and too-strong denial about the optimistic and virtuous nature of Superman, or who is supposed to have complex and conflicted interactions with his sister/children? Deploy Lionel as an explanation for why the audience should have any pity or patience for Lex. A Lex who’s going to heal-then-unheal his sister just to make a point to Conner, or who has no hesitation in handing over baby Lena for power, and who wouldn’t be shaken by Superman saying “I can see your soul”? You could have his living parents scared shitless of him and changing their name to disassociate themselves from him.
    Just because DCEU Lex had a harsh childhood doesn't mean he was supposed to be seen as pitiable. Plenty of complete monster villains have such a background to provide context without being seen as sympathetic.

    The Kylo Ren comparison doesn't work because Snyder had no intention of redeeming Luthor.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 08-29-2020 at 11:11 PM.

  14. #74
    Fantastic Member llozymandias's Avatar
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    My favorite motive for Lex hating Superman is simple. He sees Superman as a self righteous jerk who won't stop getting in his way. I imagine Lex trying to walk away from his feud with Superman in several ways. Travels basically to the far side of the universe. So far that the milky way galaxy is less than faint dot in the sky. Superman finds him. travels through hilbert space to the furthest divergent timeline. Superman finds him. Travels through the bulk to the furthest parallel universe. Superman finds him. Travels to a previous cycle of the universe. Superman finds him. Travels to a "future" cycle of the universe. Superman finds him. Travels to another multiverse. Superman finds him. At this point, it's clear that Superman will not leave him alone.
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  15. #75
    DARKSEID LAUGHS... Crazy Diamond's Avatar
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    Superman has always been a series that focused more on the lead hero than the villains. Lex Luthor is the only villain Superman has (that I know of) that isn't based around some gimmick. So until another villain is created and pushed that is also versatile DC will keeping using Lex as his main nemesis.

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