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  1. #1
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    Default Wolverine and Spider-Man as Avengers in the MCU?

    So the common consensus is that the X-Men movies are almost all entirely Woverine focused to the detriment of other characters but he is understandably a huge draw for the audience so you have to have him. Would it be a better idea that if the Avengers franchise continues in movie form that Logan is a member of the Avengers. Likewise Spider-Man becomes a 'proper' Avengers member in a similar set up to how it was in New Avengers. If you've got Spidey and maybe another A-List character on the roster he wont dominate the movie as much and can easily bounce off them in unique ways we haven't seen the character do in any of the X films. He'd still be a mutant and you can establish a connection with the inevitable MCU X-Men but he'd primarily be an Avenger.

    Am I crazy for thinking this is a good idea and wanting this or could it work?

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    who knows. They might do that. Or not. Whoever the new Wolverine is is going to be controversial enough.

  3. #3
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    THe thing with the MCU is that really almost everyone is an Avenger. So far at least. Maybe not OFFICIALLY an Avenger... but you show up in an Avengers movie because Avenger movies are basically big team up books.

    That might change with the upcoming Fox properties, but that's how it's worked so far. So even if Wolverine and Spider-Man aren't official Avengers I imagine it's very very possible they will show up in the Avenger movies.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbus View Post
    Would it be a better idea that if the Avengers franchise continues in movie form that Logan is a member of the Avengers.
    No.

    Am I crazy for thinking this is a good idea and wanting this or could it work?
    You are not crazy for thinking this or for wanting this to work. Even if I disagree with the concept and notion, that doesn't mean you are wrong for thinking this.

    I personally would prefer if Spider-Man and Wolverine stay far away from the Avengers and indeed I would prefer if the MCU was less centered on the Avengers going forward.

    The fact is that the MCU was Avengers-centered because they didn't have the rights to FF and X-Men. Now that they do, they no longer have to make everything lead to being in the Avengers anymore. The MCU depends on novelty and crossover, i.e. introduce new teams, new characters, new ideas, and then have them all team up in a big crossover down the line. So the main thing for them to do is double down introduce new ideas, new characters, new teams and then do the crossover story.

    Adding Wolverine and Spider-Man on to Avengers rosters is counter-productive to that, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

    It's more important to have Spider-Man team up with and pal around with Johnny Storm than to be in the Avengers, because Spider-Man is always diminished by the Avengers but elevated by the Fantastic Four.

    In the case of Wolverine, it's not as if having him be on multiple teams at once is a hard concept to wrap around so have him be in the X-Men/FF/Avengers/Guardians simultaneously. He can make it work bub.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    THe thing with the MCU is that really almost everyone is an Avenger. So far at least. Maybe not OFFICIALLY an Avenger... but you show up in an Avengers movie because Avenger movies are basically big team up books.

    That might change with the upcoming Fox properties, but that's how it's worked so far. So even if Wolverine and Spider-Man aren't official Avengers I imagine it's very very possible they will show up in the Avenger movies.
    The last two Avengers movies were basically event movies so you had all these disparate characters coming together even if they weren't "official" Avengers, so that might still happen in the future where they rope in the X-Men, FF, and other stray heroes.

  6. #6
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    Well.......by MCU Canon Spider-Man IS an official Avenger thanks to Tony.

    Let it Bloom. Let it Ring. The Song of Love & Victory!

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The fact is that the MCU was Avengers-centered because they didn't have the rights to FF and X-Men. Now that they do, they no longer have to make everything lead to being in the Avengers anymore. The MCU depends on novelty and crossover, i.e. introduce new teams, new characters, new ideas, and then have them all team up in a big crossover down the line. So the main thing for them to do is double down introduce new ideas, new characters, new teams and then do the crossover story.
    True but it's certainly not the only reason the MCU was centred around the Avengers. There were multiple Avengers books at the time Marvel started doing movies all of which were Marvel's top sellers as was their alternate universe counterpart The Ultimates.

    I also think conceptually they work as the center of the Marvel Universe in a way the X-Men and Fantastic Four don't. As others have pointed out the last two Avengers movies have been the equivelants of event comics with the non Avengers characters being drawn into their story. That is why I can't see Marvel Studios stop making Avengers movies or them being the center of the MCU even with their acquisition of theX-Men and FF movie rights.

    Adding Wolverine and Spider-Man on to Avengers rosters is counter-productive to that, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
    I'd say the constant focus on Wolverine in the X-Men movies is a problem as is the fact that the character is such a draw that film makers feel they have to make it.

    Putting him in an Avengers team with other big names means he won't dominate and we will get different interactions other than him feuding with Slim over Red all the time.

    It's more important to have Spider-Man team up with and pal around with Johnny Storm than to be in the Avengers, because Spider-Man is always diminished by the Avengers but elevated by the Fantastic Four.
    I'm not sure I fully agree. Peter's friendship with Johnny is something I'd like to see in the movies but really the idea that the character fits better with the FF than the Avengers I feel is based more on a sense of tradition than anything else. Yes, he can come off a bit like The Avengers court jester but he isn't diminished by being a member of the team anymore than Batman is diminished by being a member of the Justice League. I think an argument can be made as Marvel's A-Lister he should be part if their premier franchise.

    Other than a sense of being part of their extended family I don't see how he's elevated by his association with the FF. He's not as smart as Reed, as strong as Ben or a rebel like Johnny.

    In the case of Wolverine, it's not as if having him be on multiple teams at once is a hard concept to wrap around so have him be in the X-Men/FF/Avengers/Guardians simultaneously. He can make it work bub.
    Hmm that wore out its welcome in the comics years ago. I'm not sure I'd want to see him so omnipresent in the movies.

  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbus View Post
    True but it's certainly not the only reason the MCU was centred around the Avengers.
    The MCU was born out of financial exigencies. The fact that Marvel were getting as much revenue from licensing the rights to other studios which became an issue when the profits arrived for the movies and little of that went to Marvel themselves. So David Maisel came up with the idea of creating their own studio centered on the rights and properties they already had.

    There were multiple Avengers books at the time Marvel started doing movies all of which were Marvel's top sellers as was their alternate universe counterpart The Ultimates.
    Fact is comics sales in the 2000s are so little a part of overall revenue that they played only a small role in the choice of adapting the Avengers for live action.

    I also think conceptually they work as the center of the Marvel Universe in a way the X-Men and Fantastic Four don't.
    Conceptually the Marvel Universe works without having a center. And that's how it should be.

    Yes, he can come off a bit like The Avengers court jester but he isn't diminished by being a member of the team anymore than Batman is diminished by being a member of the Justice League.
    Batman isn't treated like trash by fellow JL-ers the way Spider-Man is.

    I think an argument can be made as Marvel's A-Lister he should be part if their premier franchise.
    Spider-Man being in the Avengers is for the benefit of the Avengers not for himself. In fact it's often been for the benefit of the Avengers at expense at himself.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Conceptually the Marvel Universe works without having a center. And that's how it should be.
    There are events that are specific to certain franchises but honestly most events generally have the Avengers front and center by virtue of the fact that

    Batman isn't treated like trash by fellow JL-ers the way Spider-Man is.
    I tend to think this is way overstated. Sure, most of the Avengers talk to him like he's a child but that's part of the humour of having him on the team. It's always shown that deep down they respect him and value what he brings to the team. Kinda like how the DCAU Justice League treated Wally West.

    Spider-Man being in the Avengers is for the benefit of the Avengers not for himself. In fact it's often been for the benefit of the Avengers at expense at himself.
    How is it at the expense of himself? It's not like his books are often hugely affected by him when he's a member of the team. The time that he lived at Stark Tower it's usually only cameos or brief mentions.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbus View Post
    There are events that are specific to certain franchises but honestly most events generally have the Avengers front and center...
    Not always. In fact the movies shoehorn Avengers into stories that were much broader. The original Infinity Gauntlet covered cosmic-level characters and Adam Warlock was the main lead hero.

    SECRET WARS 1984 was a big crossover that didn't center on any hero or group, and its main protagonist was Doctor Doom. SECRET WARS 2015 was a FF story.

    How is it at the expense of himself?
    There's never been an Avengers story where Spider-Man gets to save the day or make the big contribution to victory, whereas it has been there with Wally West and the DCAU and the Justice League. There's never a classic moment with Spider-Man and the Avengers in any title and story since 2004. He's always the mascot character, the cheerleader, the jokes guy and so on. If you are a fan of Spider-Man, and that's a big community to be a part of, there's nothing to be gained reading his adventures with Avengers. It touches no one.

    Ultimately having Spider-Man in a story where he's insulted and talked down to by other Avengers adds value to the Avengers as a team, and having Spider-Man consider Stark a mentor adds value to Iron Man. They get to vampirically feed of Spider-Man's great fame and equity but in exchange Spider-Man gets nothing in return.

    It sucks because Spider-Man is the senior character. He was an active superhero before Iron Man, before the formation of the Avengers. Way back in Roger Stern's run on the Avengers, he had him point out this inconvenient fact:

    "Hey, I'm Spider-Man, Remember? I was sticking to walls when you guys were still looking for a clubhouse, I'm no green rookie!"
    -- The Avengers #236
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 08-09-2020 at 03:08 PM.

  11. #11
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbus View Post
    I'd say the constant focus on Wolverine in the X-Men movies is a problem as is the fact that the character is such a draw that film makers feel they have to make it.

    Putting him in an Avengers team with other big names means he won't dominate and we will get different interactions other than him feuding with Slim over Red all the time.
    I would think the simpler solution would just better balance the focus and screentime of the other X-Men.
    I'm not sure I fully agree. Peter's friendship with Johnny is something I'd like to see in the movies but really the idea that the character fits better with the FF than the Avengers I feel is based more on a sense of tradition than anything else. Yes, he can come off a bit like The Avengers court jester but he isn't diminished by being a member of the team anymore than Batman is diminished by being a member of the Justice League. I think an argument can be made as Marvel's A-Lister he should be part if their premier franchise.

    Other than a sense of being part of their extended family I don't see how he's elevated by his association with the FF. He's not as smart as Reed, as strong as Ben or a rebel like Johnny.
    Spider-Man is handled with the Avengers much more differently than Batman is with the Justice League.

    I think Spidey fits with an oddball family of kooky characters like the FF more than he does with an Avengers team (who can be an oddball family of kooky characters, but that's not what they are in the MCU).

    The other issue with Spider-Man is the tenuous Sony deal so that might limit how intrinsic he is in the Marvel Universe. As it is his only major connection to the MCU outside his own movies was to a character who is dead now, so there's more freedom to write him out or not reference him again if they can't use him any more because of Sony.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    There's never been an Avengers story where Spider-Man gets to save the day or make the big contribution to victory, whereas it has been there with Wally West and the DCAU and the Justice League. There's never a classic moment with Spider-Man and the Avengers in any title and story since 2004. He's always the mascot character, the cheerleader, the jokes guy and so on. If you are a fan of Spider-Man, and that's a big community to be a part of, there's nothing to be gained reading his adventures with Avengers. It touches no one.

    Ultimately having Spider-Man in a story where he's insulted and talked down to by other Avengers adds value to the Avengers as a team, and having Spider-Man consider Stark a mentor adds value to Iron Man. They get to vampirically feed of Spider-Man's great fame and equity but in exchange Spider-Man gets nothing in return.

    It sucks because Spider-Man is the senior character. He was an active superhero before Iron Man, before the formation of the Avengers. Way back in Roger Stern's run on the Avengers, he had him point out this inconvenient fact:

    "Hey, I'm Spider-Man, Remember? I was sticking to walls when you guys were still looking for a clubhouse, I'm no green rookie!"
    -- The Avengers #236
    Well there was that one JMS story in Amazing with Hydra's Avengers doppelgangers. As for Spider-Man never saving the day in an actual Avengers book you have a fair point he has however contributed something crucial to the teams victory more than once as well had good character moments with them.

    Remember a big appeal of the character is that he's an underdog both as Peter Parker and as Spider-Man. Also the way they talk to him now is more to do with how comic book dialogue has evolved with an emphasis on humour. It's often shown that they do respect and think he adds value to the team even if their banter with him comes across like they think of him as their annoying little brother.

  13. #13
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    I'd actually really like to see Wolverine as part of the avengers, he'd be interesting to see interactions between him and the others and I just don't want him on the X-men again. I don't mind if spider-man is on the avengers as long as we see interactions between him and the fantastic four

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member pageturner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Not always. In fact the movies shoehorn Avengers into stories that were much broader. The original Infinity Gauntlet covered cosmic-level characters and Adam Warlock was the main lead hero.

    SECRET WARS 1984 was a big crossover that didn't center on any hero or group, and its main protagonist was Doctor Doom. SECRET WARS 2015 was a FF story.



    There's never been an Avengers story where Spider-Man gets to save the day or make the big contribution to victory, whereas it has been there with Wally West and the DCAU and the Justice League. There's never a classic moment with Spider-Man and the Avengers in any title and story since 2004. He's always the mascot character, the cheerleader, the jokes guy and so on. If you are a fan of Spider-Man, and that's a big community to be a part of, there's nothing to be gained reading his adventures with Avengers. It touches no one.

    Ultimately having Spider-Man in a story where he's insulted and talked down to by other Avengers adds value to the Avengers as a team, and having Spider-Man consider Stark a mentor adds value to Iron Man. They get to vampirically feed of Spider-Man's great fame and equity but in exchange Spider-Man gets nothing in return.

    It sucks because Spider-Man is the senior character. He was an active superhero before Iron Man, before the formation of the Avengers. Way back in Roger Stern's run on the Avengers, he had him point out this inconvenient fact:

    "Hey, I'm Spider-Man, Remember? I was sticking to walls when you guys were still looking for a clubhouse, I'm no green rookie!"
    -- The Avengers #236

    I think being in the Avengers certainly elevated him. Not in fame but in status among the MU.
    As to saving the day off the top of my head He got the PF out of Colossus and Magic. He was the science guy in the Luke Cage Avengers figuring out the deal with the AofA guns. His leading the heroes in Spider Island does not happen if he has not first proven himself in the Avengers.

    He did get mentored by Cap and Stark but Cap has more experience on teams and stark in a lab. Same things happens when he is with Reed.

    The avengers are the elite team within the MU. Elite characters should be on it. After decades of teamup Spiderman earned a spot on a team. I know he is not allowed to grow much but that much is true.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbus View Post
    Well there was that one JMS story in Amazing with Hydra's Avengers doppelgangers.
    As you said, in Amazing, i.e. Spider-Man's own title Amazing Spider-Man. But in the Avengers title, Spider-Man never gets a comparable moment.

    Remember a big appeal of the character is that he's an underdog both as Peter Parker and as Spider-Man.
    Well the point of the underdog is that when they win and save the day it feels special. But in the Avengers, Spider-Man never wins. An underdog who doesn't win is not an underdog he's a--hole who gets hit by a truck, and basically is there just to prop up the ego and reputations of the other Avengers.

    In other words, in the Avengers, Spider-Man is "noob noob".




    What real reason would there be for a Spider-Man fan to follow his adventures in the Avengers? What great moments are there for them to follow these titles if their investment is never going to be rewarded?
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 08-10-2020 at 05:48 AM.

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