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  1. #31
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Can you tell me what you like about it? No jokes, and no bashing here. There are some parts of the story I find interesting (I think the opening issue is fine for the most part).
    I'll try. I'd have to re-read it to figure out where my favorite parts are, so here are some thoughts on the overall story.

    1) The story is very character-driven, like much of the JMS run. Its a personal preference of mine. He writes so much that way, that I think he can get tunnel vision at times where the character interactions kind of become larger and better than the story itself. But in this case I felt the story lived up to the character depictions.

    2) Sins Past took an honest and kind of modern approach at the Gwen Stacy character and theorized some new tendencies and vulnerabilities which we had not seen before. Usually she never had problems and is just such a blah, static being. Is the Sins Past approach a bit icky? Yes. But I can deal with icky better than yet another "Gwen is this perfect angel from heaven" story.

    3) MJ is really the driver behind the story. Its really about Peter and her relationship, and a secret she has that she has never shared previously and how they deal with that secret as a couple. I felt MJ was treated respectfully. I admit when first reading this I wanted JMS to leave things in doubt as to whether she was a reliable narrator. I still feel that would have been an improvement, just to leave doubt and introduce further story possibilities. But I can understand why he didn't - he thought this whole story would have been retconned away when he wrote it.

    4) I respect the boldness of the story and enjoy that it punches me in the gut. Not many stories do that authentically. Its an engaging work, certainly moreso than almost any other Gwen-based story, even Blue which is decent but where I could see where they were going from the very first page. Every single fricking Gwen story is like that except for Spider-Gwen, which isn't even the same character. Sins Past was a real page-turner for me and, while I could have done without some of the imagery, the pseudo-realism of Deodato was a gut punch that works in context. I mean if you are going there anyhow, I respect a writer going all the way and embracing where he is headed.

    There's probably more. The twins actually being around, I'm kind of on the fence about. Feel like it would have been better to have killed them off at the end of the story.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    I'll try. I'd have to re-read it to figure out where my favorite parts are, so here are some thoughts on the overall story.

    1) The story is very character-driven, like much of the JMS run. Its a personal preference of mine. He writes so much that way, that I think he can get tunnel vision at times where the character interactions kind of become larger and better than the story itself. But in this case I felt the story lived up to the character depictions.

    2) Sins Past took an honest and kind of modern approach at the Gwen Stacy character and theorized some new tendencies and vulnerabilities which we had not seen before. Usually she never had problems and is just such a blah, static being. Is the Sins Past approach a bit icky? Yes. But I can deal with icky better than yet another "Gwen is this perfect angel from heaven" story.

    3) MJ is really the driver behind the story. Its really about Peter and her relationship, and a secret she has that she has never shared previously and how they deal with that secret as a couple. I felt MJ was treated respectfully. I admit when first reading this I wanted JMS to leave things in doubt as to whether she was a reliable narrator. I still feel that would have been an improvement, just to leave doubt and introduce further story possibilities. But I can understand why he didn't - he thought this whole story would have been retconned away when he wrote it.

    4) I respect the boldness of the story and enjoy that it punches me in the gut. Not many stories do that authentically. Its an engaging work, certainly moreso than almost any other Gwen-based story, even Blue which is decent but where I could see where they were going from the very first page. Every single fricking Gwen story is like that except for Spider-Gwen, which isn't even the same character. Sins Past was a real page-turner for me and, while I could have done without some of the imagery, the pseudo-realism of Deodato was a gut punch that works in context. I mean if you are going there anyhow, I respect a writer going all the way and embracing where he is headed.

    There's probably more. The twins actually being around, I'm kind of on the fence about. Feel like it would have been better to have killed them off at the end of the story.
    I think the thing that's most jarring about Sins Past is that Norman is the father. This is ridiculous for a myriad but mostly because Norman should've still had his memories damaged at that point. Why did he decide to have sex with Gwen?

    It's been a while since I've read so my memory is a little murky on the details.

  3. #33
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    The entire Clone Saga. I loved it and it made me a Ben Reilly fan for life.

  4. #34
    Spectacular Member JTHM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    What about the arcs before those ones?
    Highs and lows. It really depends on which ones you ask about. Spider-Island was very good imo. Spider-Verse, Brand New Day, The Gauntlet not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_62 View Post
    I can understand that, I feel like I might be of similar mind. He had lots of new ideas but sometimes the actual characterization and things done to get things there didn't work for me a lot of times. Spider-Verse is one I don't enjoy. I was really excited for the event cause it seemed like a no-brainer finally teaming up tons of Spidey's in the comics but the whole thing was a drag with weird choices. It kinda bums me out seeing that story recommended so much on lists mostly from the basis that it's a big story and would influence things like the movie. Thankful the Spider-Verse movie exists to iron out the kinks and distill the comic story into a more airtight package that also simultaneously feels more joyous and appropriate for the character.
    Hard agree. The original Spider-Verse was, imo, a very bloated and simple story that didn't really speak to me for what it should have been: A celebration of everything Spider-Man. It was just "Peter Parker and His Multiversal Friends fight Spirit Vampires" in essence. Into the Spider-Verse was a movie with a different premise, but I can see why you like it more than the actual comic.

    But yeah. As I said Slott is a writer that can have cool ideas on their own, like a lot of the things he introduced to Spider-Man's world were cool, but he usually falls flat with characters. (And considering this is Spider-Man, characters is the one thing he shouldn't fall flat)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHM View Post
    Highs and lows. It really depends on which ones you ask about. Spider-Island was very good imo. Spider-Verse, Brand New Day, The Gauntlet not so much.



    Hard agree. The original Spider-Verse was, imo, a very bloated and simple story that didn't really speak to me for what it should have been: A celebration of everything Spider-Man. It was just "Peter Parker and His Multiversal Friends fight Spirit Vampires" in essence. Into the Spider-Verse was a movie with a different premise, but I can see why you like it more than the actual comic.

    But yeah. As I said Slott is a writer that can have cool ideas on their own, like a lot of the things he introduced to Spider-Man's world were cool, but he usually falls flat with characters. (And considering this is Spider-Man, characters is the one thing he shouldn't fall flat)
    It annoyed me how many story threads that he started but didn't finish, as though people only read comics for the cliffhangers.

  6. #36
    Fantastic Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    It annoyed me how many story threads that he started but didn't finish, as though people only read comics for the cliffhangers.
    I enjoyed Going Down Swinging for the most part, just another one of those ridiculous concepts, but the Emily Osborn is alive retcon was soooo unnecessary.

    I picked up lots of Clone Saga era backissues in the early 2000s and I am fond of that period. I get why it's disliked but there are some legitimately good stories in that period. The Lost Years miniseries is excellent. Amazing 400 is excellent. Some of the stories in there are genuinely pretty enjoyable, like some of the early Spider-Ben adventures.

    I like those early stories with Judas Traveller haha. Especially with JM DeMatteis writing him. Half the time I don't know what the character is getting at or why he cares but I enjoy the philosophical rambling with a seemingly all-powerful being who's just interested in messing with Peter Parker of all people. My friend and I have a super random love for Judas Traveller cause his design is ridiculous and his powers are ridiculous and the whole thing is ridiculous. He even had his own posse.

    Still devastated about the retcon to explain him away. These days it seems like an easier pill to swallow what with people from hell pulling strings behind Spidey's back, and multiversal dealings being a more normal thing for Spider-Man.

  7. #37
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    Probably already been mentioned in this thread, but I’ll defend the 90s Clone Saga as an exciting read until the day I die.

    I also like ASM Annual #5 which gets some grief for making Peter’s parents spies. And I like the post clone-saga/ pre-reboot comics from 96 to 98, which are usually dismissed or completely forgotten about.

  8. #38
    Spectacular Member mikedesil's Avatar
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    Yes I totally enjoyed the Clone Saga.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Probably already been mentioned in this thread, but I’ll defend the 90s Clone Saga as an exciting read until the day I die.

    I also like ASM Annual #5 which gets some grief for making Peter’s parents spies. And I like the post clone-saga/ pre-reboot comics from 96 to 98, which are usually dismissed or completely forgotten about.
    I feel like that criticism is fairly recent since I rarely heard of it before TASM.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member From The Shadows's Avatar
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    I always liked the Makie run with the Jr Jr art in the 90s. I know in the earlier internet days it wasn't considered all that good but I enjoyed it. I was surprised. it was considered so bad but I know Mackie isn't a well loved writer.

  11. #41
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I will defend Torment to the end of days.

    It was ahead of it time, with a TPB length story that ended ambiguously. It was a good example of a hero pushed to the limit, and while even the writer has disavowed it as an early effort, it depicted the character's desperation pretty well.

    It's one of the first Spider-Man comics I read, and a big reason the Lizard is my favorite Spider-Man villain.
    You just named a few of the reasons why it's my favorite Spider-Man story that I've read. I thought Calypso was a great villain to use with the voodoo and everything.
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 08-14-2020 at 04:46 PM.
    " This is why you're the head of S.H.I.E.L.D, Stark. Because you're stronger than anyone. It's not the armor....and you know it. Your here because impossible things happen, and when they do, They call on you to deal with them. You see the angles, Tony. You always have. You see the possible solutions to things that shouldn't be happening." CAROL DANVERS

  12. #42
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Sins Past is an all around panned story, considered bad, bad, bad. It gets discussed regularly as one of the worst. And its imagery is quite heinous, from Norman's o-face to Peter stabbing Gwen's dead body to get a DNA sample. The timeline is way off and makes no sense with the published comic history. Its the absolute weirdest flex by a Spider-writer since the original Clone Saga came about.

    But I like it.
    Same here. I enjoyed reading it.
    " This is why you're the head of S.H.I.E.L.D, Stark. Because you're stronger than anyone. It's not the armor....and you know it. Your here because impossible things happen, and when they do, They call on you to deal with them. You see the angles, Tony. You always have. You see the possible solutions to things that shouldn't be happening." CAROL DANVERS

  13. #43
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    Yeah, I really like Maximum Carnage as well. It drags on a bit, but is overall lots of fun.

    A mini-series I quite enjoy is Spider-man: Reign. It's my favourite "classic hero but as an old man in a dystopian future"-story I've read from either of the big two.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_62 View Post
    I enjoyed Going Down Swinging for the most part, just another one of those ridiculous concepts, but the Emily Osborn is alive retcon was soooo unnecessary.

    I picked up lots of Clone Saga era backissues in the early 2000s and I am fond of that period. I get why it's disliked but there are some legitimately good stories in that period. The Lost Years miniseries is excellent. Amazing 400 is excellent. Some of the stories in there are genuinely pretty enjoyable, like some of the early Spider-Ben adventures.

    I like those early stories with Judas Traveller haha. Especially with JM DeMatteis writing him. Half the time I don't know what the character is getting at or why he cares but I enjoy the philosophical rambling with a seemingly all-powerful being who's just interested in messing with Peter Parker of all people. My friend and I have a super random love for Judas Traveller cause his design is ridiculous and his powers are ridiculous and the whole thing is ridiculous. He even had his own posse.

    Still devastated about the retcon to explain him away. These days it seems like an easier pill to swallow what with people from hell pulling strings behind Spidey's back, and multiversal dealings being a more normal thing for Spider-Man.
    I don't know how I feel about the "ridiculous" critique because, by nature, comics are "ridiculous". Somehow, Vulture and Doctor Octopus are normal? That might be why I don't dislike Judas as much as most readers.

  15. #45
    Fantastic Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    I think Howard Mackie gets a bad rap on Spidey, he was writing the character pretty well through the mid-late 90s before the reboot stuff. The more crime-centric stuff with JRJR was great. I think he had some health issues around the time he was writing the reboot era stuff which coupled with probably burning out on the character didn't make for a good time for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I don't know how I feel about the "ridiculous" critique because, by nature, comics are "ridiculous". Somehow, Vulture and Doctor Octopus are normal? That might be why I don't dislike Judas as much as most readers.
    He wears like 3 belts and has a bevy of jewelry and rides around with a posse of folks who dress all cool like him, I'd say that's pretty ridiculous- but I love it. I mean more in the sense that he was pretty far beyond what Spider-Man readers were used to for an antagonist in terms of powerset or scope where most of them up til Venom and Carnage were more "grounded" based in science or such.

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