Layoffs at DC?

[Zaresh]

If you want to sell in walmart then you'll probably have to care about what they want.


Overall I think that entire "mature" label is not well defined, what it is exactly? Nudity? Curse words? Gore? Serious subjects? I don't really need to see Batman's penis nor someone getting mutilated in a detailed splash page. For example, I think that Superman Smashes the klan tackles rather serious subject, but it has none of these things.

I, though, for example love horror stories. Most of them are definitely mature, because all those points are tropes and themes and tools used in them. I don't need all my reads to be readable by teens, have no problem with nudity or swearing, or sex, even (I think sex tends to be written kind of ehh, teenagery? Edgy? Not always, but...). The thing that disturbs my reads are stories that show racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. under a good light, advocating for them. Those are the only ones I would put censure upon. The rest just need a propper tagging system, which I thing we all have already, here and there? Adult readership should be mature (hehe) enough to know what the're buying and what not to show or buy for their kids. Just my opinion. Censorship tend to be ridiculous, uncivil and usualy easy to cheat when there's actual intention to push it through it.

[hero talk]

Regardless of how one may feel about DC and the material they turn out, for staffers to get a pink slip in the middle of a pandemic is a dreadful thing I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Meanwhile, could a similar sort of bloodletting happen over at Marvel?

they have Disney there fine

[skyvolt2000]

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up the people who you clearly don't like you shouldn't be giving people you don't like space in your head

I am not talking about those folks. Some of that behavior comes from normal folks.

Who will scream for new talent yet won't give that talent a shot.

You can't keep whining about the current writers (ESPECIALLY Bendis) if new folks are not welcomed.

Can't whine about Lobdell or Johns or Aaron or Ewing writing 50 books, if new folks are not welcomed.

Priest can't get Batman if DC has to worry about not just actual readers but store owners ready to jump ship and not give him a shot (despite already writing him before).


That was the point I was making. I am not worried about the trolls who hasn't touched a comic before folks knew who Al Bundy was.

New blood is coming. So HOW are we the fans going to treat them? Oh resume be DANGED. Coates has a resume and messed up Wakanda. Eve Ewing didn't and she did more for Riri than Bendis. Lets give folks a legit shot.

[HsssH]

The thing that disturbs my reads are stories that show racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. under a good light, advocating for them.

What DC books are doing that?

they have Disney there fine

From what I have read Disney is not fine due to their theme parks not bringing in billions that they usually do.

[hero talk]

wow. I didn't think anyone would agree with me.

things are worse than I thought.

i'm at the depression stage of grief now.

tim will be fine they use him a lot in cartoons and movies they will keep him around

[Lee Stone]

Who wants some self appointed moral guardians of walmarts shelves telling you what you can and cant read.

It happens every time comics go into populus because they are most easily consumed art.

Who thinks oh yeah you know who i like - Alan Moore - but unfettered alan moore just isnt creative enough so it would be better to impose a load of rules on him.

I know what youre saying but that argument doesnt stand up at all. Novelists dont have to put up with it - i dont see why comics writers should either.

If you want to create art with no care if it will sell or not during your lifetime, you can do whatever you want.

But if you're producing entertainment content for money, you're going to have to bend to someone else's standards.
Editors can find someone else, readers can go elsewhere.

If an advertising agency hires you to make a billboard for them, and you create a psychedelic billboard with flaming babies, demonic hordes eating human heads and a topless girl riding a bat to help sell their family hotel on the next exit...
You could cry 'censorship!' when they refused to use it.
But that wouldn't be why they'd turn and go find someone else.

[Zaresh]

What DC books are doing that?.

None of them. Which is why I don't have a problem with what it's been published. It wasn't my point in that post, either.

[hero talk]

I am not talking about those folks. Some of that behavior comes from normal folks.

Who will scream for new talent yet won't give that talent a shot.

You can't keep whining about the current writers (ESPECIALLY Bendis) if new folks are not welcomed.

Can't whine about Lobdell or Johns or Aaron or Ewing writing 50 books, if new folks are not welcomed.

Priest can't get Batman if DC has to worry about not just actual readers but store owners ready to jump ship and not give him a shot (despite already writing him before).


That was the point I was making. I am not worried about the trolls who hasn't touched a comic before folks knew who Al Bundy was.

New blood is coming. So HOW are we the fans going to treat them? Oh resume be DANGED. Coates has a resume and messed up Wakanda. Eve Ewing didn't and she did more for Riri than Bendis. Lets give folks a legit shot.

Bendis is awful I think what he did to the superman books was in poor taste I like one of the new writers on superman he only did one issue but its my favorite modern superman book so funny

[Dylan Davison]

I just talked to a friend who owns a comic book store, he made me feel a lot better about this. I don't think this as doom and gloom as people are making it out to be. It sucks and I feel for those who lost their jobs and I hope they find new ones, but I don't think this is the end of floppies or monthly titles. My friend helped me see that. I hope he is right and that things go well.

[Myskin]

If you want to sell in walmart then you'll probably have to care about what they want.


Overall I think that entire "mature" label is not well defined, what it is exactly? Nudity? Curse words? Gore? Serious subjects? I don't really need to see Batman's penis nor someone getting mutilated in a detailed splash page. For example, I think that Superman Smashes the klan tackles rather serious subject, but it has none of these things.

I'll speak just for myself.
When I look at Image - which is generally considered an imprint for "adult" books - the first thing that I notice is not the violence or the sexual content (even if there are both violent and sexually explicit scenes), but the fact that in general the content they present is generally unique, clever and - sometimes - intellectually challenging. It actually takes a little effort to follow the stories and to get captivated by them. Both on a visual and narrative level. They don't try to make the reader comfortable - they challenge him (well, it's a challenge for the standards of US books). If the reader decides to take up the challenge, it is way more satisfying than just reading a standard DC superhero book, in which the way the story develops is always predictable and the tropes and the moral lessons are always obvious.
In that regard, the explicit scenes are a consequence of a more specific, general approach. I am not surprised whenever I see sexual organs or acts in SAGA or Savage Dragon or Prophet, because it is something I have come to expect from these specific creators (also: I think that the way sexuality is depicted is very different in each of these three books. I mean, it's not that sex can be depicted in only ONE way). However, sex or violence is not what makes this books "adult" as far as I am concerned. It is more of a consequence of something more complex at the core of the works.
The problem I have whenever people come up with the need for an "adult" label is that the sexual and violent details become the main focus of everybody's attention rather than a byproduct of a more complex, challenging approach. I actually have no problems with the bat-penis, and I think that the entire controversy about it is ridiculous and it says more about DC management, comic book sites and US audience than anything else. But it is pretty obvious that Batman: Damned is and will forever be the book about Batman's cock and - by extension - I guess that to a degree Black Label (which IMHO was an interesting experiment, but not entirely successful) will be remembered as the imprint of superhero dicks, rather than the label of more complex, challenging superhero stories.

Somehow I think that the need to create differentiated imprints is actually part of the problem rather than the solution. Don't get me wrong, I know that this is the way these companies work and to get something different I should literally escape into a parallel universe, or brainwash the managers AND the readers AND the entire society these books are published in, but in a better world we would get two different DC imprints at the most: one for younger kids with more simplified (but still clever) works and a "normal" one for the general audience, with more complex, challenging stories and - if it is necessary - "adult" moments. Instead what we get - at least, from the main DC line - is generally dumb, predictable stories which are ALWAYS influenced by a misunderstood need for moral lessons and, from time to time, some stories which are considered "adult" because the contain nudity or some violent scenes but without being inherently more clever or challenging than standard stories.

I really don't think that the labelling works. I mean, we have tons of sites about Bruce Wayne PENIS!!!111!, but on the other hand something like Geoff Johns' Infinite Crisis - which IMHO could be among the top 5 dumbest events DC has ever produced - is considered a "standard" comic book even if we get mutilation, ripped arms, decapitation, gouged eyes and an incredibly silly and flawed plot.

As for the current situation... it's not that it is impossible to get something marketable for a younger audience AND clever at the same time. What I have in mind is not Superman Smashes the Klan but rather TV series like Adventure Time, Avatar The Last Airbender, The Legend of Korra and - to a degree - Samurai Jack. But in order to get something like this we would need an enlightened management and very clever, creative people like Pendleton Ward or Genndy Tartakovsky, perfectly at ease with experimental, original storytelling both with "standard" and "adult" content. I really don't see something like this coming from current DC, especially if what they are aiming at is mainly the merchandise rather than creating something valuable in the first place.

[Rise]

If you want to sell in walmart then you'll probably have to care about what they want.


Overall I think that entire "mature" label is not well defined, what it is exactly? Nudity? Curse words? Gore? Serious subjects? I don't really need to see Batman's penis nor someone getting mutilated in a detailed splash page. For example, I think that Superman Smashes the klan tackles rather serious subject, but it has none of these things.

You said it best. This is why I dislike the majority of so called "mature" content from DC and others. I actually see stories that inculde thoes as immature content.

[iron chimp]

If you want to create art with no care if it will sell or not during your lifetime, you can do whatever you want.

But if you're producing entertainment content for money, you're going to have to bend to someone else's standards.
Editors can find someone else, readers can go elsewhere.

If an advertising agency hires you to make a billboard for them, and you create a psychedelic billboard with flaming babies, demonic hordes eating human heads and a topless girl riding a bat to help sell their family hotel on the next exit...
You could cry 'censorship!' when they refused to use it.
But that wouldn't be why they'd turn and go find someone else.

Be very questuonable whether you could have watchmen in a supermarket so 'no care whether it sells or not' is somewhat disingenuous argument.

Yes you may have to bend to someone else standards but that should not be to non consumers of comics.

And billboard is entirely different to a comic because the first you have no choice wherher you see it or not. The second you have a choice.

[Digifiend]

I wonder if they'll want to turn Action back into an anthology book with all the culling. Normally I'm not a fan of this idea. I've maintained the position for decades that its Superman's book. But with lots of characters no longer having a home, maybe its time to not be stubborn. They could do the same to Detective as well.

Would they make more money having Nightwing, Robin, Batwoman and Batgirl stories in one book (I'm thinking 100 pages here) than in separate ones?

As for this "e-sports" (not a real thing)

lol. Why don't they call it what it really is - video gaming?

[iron chimp]

Novelists absolutely do have to put up with it. Pretty much everyone in some form of entertainment does.

You can go in any bookshop and buy extremely hardcore fiction no problem from Georges Bataille to Burroughs to marquis de sade to de Quincy to iceberg slim to whoever. They all won their argument in court decades ago and now bookshops and literature publishers are largely immune to the crap comics has had to put up with for decades.

Music fought off the censors and Tipper Gores crusade. You can buy NWA in a supermarket now next to fresh produce aisle. Good luck publishing a comic book of the life of eazy-e for the supermarket tho.

Publishers of novels and barristers go to bat for their work in the courts and fight to get it on the shelves. Comics crumbles like a house of cards at first sign of faux outrage.

I can guarantee if any company puts their focus on newstand distro then you could form a pressure group to seize control of the content of their books. You cannot do that with Penguin or Random House or DefJam or whoever.

Nothing wrong with family friendly comics in newsstand - good - should be something for all ages - who doesnt enjoy a high quality all ages comic. But you will be very limited in what content you can do compared to in the comicshop if that is your main focus going forward. Thats no alan moore, no grant morrison doom patrol, no peter milligan etc. Thats a big chunk of your prestige output in 90s that got you into the literary pages of newspapers and on tv.

[HsssH]

Would they make more money having Nightwing, Robin, Batwoman and Batgirl stories in one book (I'm thinking 100 pages here) than in separate ones?

I'm not sure if we really need 100 page anthology here or all of them appearing in every issue. If it was up to me I'd just do Batman ongoing as it is now, while Detective is for various Batman related projects that are "worth" it. So maybe do high quality 3 issues story with Batgirl and then 2 issues with Nightwing and so on. Now DC has to publish lots of Batman family comics just because and quality suffers a lot.

Heck, even something like White Knight probably could have been published in Detective, would have at least made that title relevant.