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  1. #106
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    For the usual (overgrown) adolescent male power fantasy, of course. A lot of people who read superhero comics, especially X-Men, do so not out of resonance or engagement with the moral lessons superhero comics attempt to impart, but for scenes of their favorite characters "being badass," which all too often precludes deeper engagement with the story and the ethos presented by said story. As such, these people don't take very kindly to having their vicarious power fantasies "interrupted" or "sidetracked" by questions of more complex morality that might force them to examine their own deep-seated beliefs and biases.
    Yup, I agree. For some it's not the character but the power trip.

  2. #107
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Yup, I agree. For some it's not the character but the power trip.
    And the vicarious power trip, for a lot of readers, is connected to being able to identify with the badass hero in question, so taking that away for some also takes away their reason to invest, financially or emotionally, in the comic itself, so even less motivation to try to engage with the moral messaging implicit or explicit in the comic, especially if they perceive it as coming at the expense of the character they originally identified with.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Characters get can't development if they don't get used and having diverse creative talent brings in different perspectives and may have ideas on how to elevate poc mutants. Writers tend to choose to develop characters they feel comfortable writing or have some ideas they they want to explore.

    One sure fire way to do it is use the character and use them often and to give serious development in meaningful ways. Wolverine was almost a throwaway character in an Incredible Hulk story until somebody thought he was a character that they could flesh out and give more development to. They promoted him very heavy to the point where he was on nearly every team in Marvel.

    As far as Twitter/tumbler etc. and the crybabies who are afraid of different, what the hell are they reading the X-Men for?
    Look I’m a Gambit fan. If you ever show up in the Gambit appreciation thread we are constantly talking about writers hated Gambit and never wanted to write him. And yeah people say one thing that really hurt Gambit was getting stuck with writers who did not want to write him to his potential. The amount of people crapping on Excalibur for how it treats Gambit and Rogue is quite a bit. So yeah I fully understand having a variety of voices gives characters a better chance to succeed.

    As for what you said about twitter/tumblr I think youÂ’re viewing it a bit too biasedly. Twitter and tumblr have this issue of everything being black and white in mortality. I think you maybe are viewing it based on political side is toxic but the fact is so many writers in comics right now write based on trending twitter and tumble and other social media sites.And these sites lack depth. Especially when it comes to trending. Part of me wishes comic writers could be blocked from using social media because then their writing wouldnÂ’t be influenced by the trending section of twitter and maybe could give some depth to an issue.

    I use the example of the Boys. A show that is clearly making fun of right wing patriotic people but yet is still loved by right wing people. Sometimes just having smart writing regardless of race or gender is possible

  4. #109
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    Frenzy? Monet? Cecelia Reyes?

    I mean the answer is probably because the overwhelming majority of comic buyers/producers have been of caucasian origin. And their (un?)conscious biases towards that are reflected here. It is changing over time of course.
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

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  5. #110
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripstir View Post
    Look I’m a Gambit fan. If you ever show up in the Gambit appreciation thread we are constantly talking about writers hated Gambit and never wanted to write him. And yeah people say one thing that really hurt Gambit was getting stuck with writers who did not want to write him to his potential. The amount of people crapping on Excalibur for how it treats Gambit and Rogue is quite a bit. So yeah I fully understand having a variety of voices gives characters a better chance to succeed.

    As for what you said about twitter/tumblr I think youÂ’re viewing it a bit too biasedly. Twitter and tumblr have this issue of everything being black and white in mortality. I think you maybe are viewing it based on political side is toxic but the fact is so many writers in comics right now write based on trending twitter and tumble and other social media sites.And these sites lack depth. Especially when it comes to trending. Part of me wishes comic writers could be blocked from using social media because then their writing wouldnÂ’t be influenced by the trending section of twitter and maybe could give some depth to an issue.

    I use the example of the Boys. A show that is clearly making fun of right wing patriotic people but yet is still loved by right wing people. Sometimes just having smart writing regardless of race or gender is possible
    It certainly is and they should give opportunities to poc so that they can prove that it can be done.

    I'm not saying that poc creators should write poc characters exclusively but when they aren't even getting opportunities to write any characters, you have to wonder. I would say it has begun to change recently but I think most poc creators are opting just to do their own thing instead of waiting around to be slowly brought in.

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member Spinster Sinister's Avatar
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    I actually didn't realize this was a spin-off lol...


    The questions

    1. The point might have true about the Male characters but is it true about the female characters? Is there a female black character you think has really caught on that makes this question not correct? Is there a female minority character other Storm and Jubilee that has really caught on?

    No the thread is correct.

    2. Is the love of Storm to blame for some of the lack success other characters? Does X-men franchise and fans lean to heavily on Storm as representation?


    Yeah, tokenism probably played into it for a long time. A product of those times that should be done away with in 2020.

    3. Is there female minority character that you think is just some focus away from being successful mainstay? Which character if you had power to push would highlight and why is it important for that character to be highlighted?

    Specifically Black women: Blink because of AoA. Cecilia Reyes I think can become a mainstay in the same way Cypher / Beast are. Monet, Bling!, and Shard have good chances with a killer redesign. Would love to see Tempo or Cipher beat the odds!

    Other minorities: If they can define a unique personality for them: Armor, Kwannon. Moonstar is a fantastic character, but I think has some design flaws and her iconic imagery is so *not it*.

    Wish we had more Latinx rep. Cecilia Reyes, Wind Dancer, Angel, Tatiana, Risque, Tores, Creep? Weird that Wind Dancer can be one of the most prominent characters of a category of mutants.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    It certainly is and they should give opportunities to poc so that they can prove that it can be done.

    I'm not saying that poc creators should write poc characters exclusively but when they aren't even getting opportunities to write any characters, you have to wonder. I would say it has begun to change recently but I think most poc creators are opting just to do their own thing instead of waiting around to be slowly brought in.
    PoC have been brought in though. There’s a lot of writers who are getting put on fairly big books with not a lot of experience. So what I was saying with twitter and tumblr is that POC on twitter and tumblr don’t always represent the communities of POC as a whole. I myself grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood and I can tell you the twitter Poc are way different than regular folks. And if they keep higher people from the twitter/ tumblr sphere you aren’t going to get characters who have representative quality as well as crossover appeal.

  8. #113
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripstir View Post
    PoC have been brought in though. There’s a lot of writers who are getting put on fairly big books with not a lot of experience. So what I was saying with twitter and tumblr is that POC on twitter and tumblr don’t always represent the communities of POC as a whole. I myself grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood and I can tell you the twitter Poc are way different than regular folks. And if they keep higher people from the twitter/ tumblr sphere you aren’t going to get characters who have representative quality as well as crossover appeal.
    I can honestly say that I don't do any of the social media stuff(other than CBR ) because it's not that interesting to me. I don't follow anyone on Twitter nor do I tweet, Tiktok or Instagram. Just not my thing. And I did say that more poc creators are being brought in but not every creator comes from social media nor do they all let social media influence how they write their comics. A lot do interact on social media but not all or even most of them let what others post on platforms dictate what they do. However I'm sure there are some that do.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    THIS! Obviously it's harder to elevate a character these days but given them even a few decent story arcs will create a fan base.

    I think it's so funny when I see fans post about hating "SJW X-Men" because what have y'all been reading this whole time?
    Obviously not the book that had Prodigy as a lead and his arc where he was the president. Nor the arches of Generation X with Synch.

    Probably they read the books that excluded us.


    It's more business related now where characters they want to bring into the MCU will get 5 books even with low sales.
    You mean MOON KNIGHT???? Where his book getting axed again was a JOKE in She Hulk's book once.
    Because aside from Black Panther, Miles Morales & Luke Cage-most POC don't have more than 1-3 volumes of books.
    Why do people wave the banner of business when it comes to POC? They don't wave it at all the white guys who FAIL.


    But the problem is Twitter is a heavy influence on the movies so Twitter and even some of tumblr is determining how characters are written.
    REALLY????? So what is Cyborg's EXCUSE? Comic Cyborg is not like Doom Patrol or TT Go version. He still cries about his Daddy not loving him.
    Black Lightning is nothing like his tv version and doesn't have his KIDS.
    Vixen can't be like her tv version because she does not appear in comics.
    Where is Rayshaun Lucas? Falcon's kid? He does not match his Marvel Rising version because he was NEVER in the books.
    Miles is not dressing like his movie version and movie Miles does not have a baby sister.
    Alex Wilder is not with the Runaways like he is on Hulu.
    Netflix's Luke Cage doesn't have a daughter or wife like his comic version.
    The cartoon version of Aqualad became gay because of the COMIC.
    Where is Malcolm Duncan and his wife Bumblebee at? Tv does more with them than the comic.
    Monica is not a little old girl like she is in the Cap Marvel.
    I don't see a black Johnny Storm running around.
    Deathstroke by Priest is not like the tv version.
    Bronze Tiger is a TIGER and not looking like Michael Jai White.
    Mr Terrific is a straight man in comics and not gay like on Arrow.
    Luke Fox is NOT Batwing on Batwoman like he is in comics.
    Batwoman is not a black woman in comics.
    Where on Tumblr or Twitter did they tell Eve Ewing to use Midnight Fire in Ironheart. A villain only HARDCORE Warrior fans would know. Who have not been active in 20 years.
    Twitter nor Tumblr told Young Justice to have Static on it and all he does is say I need a girlfriend.
    They also did NOT say create yet ANOTHER set of Green Lanterns.
    Yet they treat Storm, Cyborg, Duke Thomas, John Stewart and Jason Rusch with way more respect than the comics they spawned from.
    They are not screaming for MORE Batman books.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    I can honestly say that I don't do any of the social media stuff(other than CBR ) because it's not that interesting to me. I don't follow anyone on Twitter nor do I tweet, Tiktok or Instagram. Just not my thing. And I did say that more poc creators are being brought in but not every creator comes from social media nor do they all let social media influence how they write their comics. A lot do interact on social media but not all or even most of them let what others post on platforms dictate what they do. However I'm sure there are some that do.
    I get what you're saying and I actually agree with part of it, but social media does affect the comic book industry and who they are hiring atm. Especially when it comes to promotion and also learning about current trending topics. It's why I said I wish there was a way to block comic writers from viewing social media while writing. Just so they didn't feel pressured to write stories or characters to be role models, but rather to be interesting. That's one of the biggest things holding back POC representation, the characters are meant to be someone to inspire people but that can be so disingenuous. I can only speak for myself as a PoC but my favorite characters are not even nice people. They are flawed and most importantly they seem to fit into the group. One of my biggest pet peeves is token diversity where everyone is a different race. It's so inauthentic and written by people who don't understand the strong community bonds within POC areas. Like I will say this, living in POC areas if people actually lived here you would understand the don't trust outsiders morality is engrained in here. And there's a certain mentality you have to have that, like i said, POC on twitter and tumblr are not able to empathize with.

    Plus I do have to recognize that comics are hard to write POC for demographics. Comics are not movies or sports. It's a solitary thing so people who aren't POC are going to spend their money on comics where they can't see themselves in there. Nobody reads comics to support other people. Comics is something you read for your own pleasure. And when it comes to population it's hard to make characters that speak to enough people to buy. Again this goes back to the thing I said before that tribalism in POC communities is very rampant so just because one group has representation doesn't mean all the other Poc races will support it

    Although I did just realize something while typing this the word Term POC is fairly racist. Because it categorizes every single brown and black person into a box when we are all unique. I think the fact people use one term to define all of us is in fact a racist thing to do. I'm not calling you a racist or anything I want to be clear especially since I'm also guilty of using the term. it's just a thought that kinda popped into my head just now
    Last edited by Gripstir; 08-13-2020 at 12:00 AM.

  11. #116
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    So here is the thing it is a MYTH that no new character can surpass or equal the O5, All new all different and Blue/Gold Era teams characters. We literally live in a era where MHA is kicking the crap out of everything in terms of sales. But it is a Manga right? Yeah it is a Manga but manga have shown us over and over that new "classic" characters can be created over and over. If I asked someone the age of who these products are marketed at who Spiderman, Superman, Batman they would know them but if also asked who Goku or Naruto they would also know, I would also bet large amount know who the leads of My Hero Academy,One Punch Man and Demon Slayer are as well. If those manga can become popular and find audience so could new comic characters.

    It is understood that comic book fans are trained to be traditionalist, The big comic companies train you be like that because they make money on OLD and new stuff. Manga fans are more trained to seek out new good stuff, After you finished your favorite manga you probably started to seek out a new manga. Fans can be "trained" to appreciate new characters it just takes some effort by the publishers. Undoubtedly characters like Wolverine, Cyclops, Storm and Magneto are extremely popular and it is hard to imagine any character equaling or passing them BUT that status does apply to every older character in the franchise. And one of the biggest problem that exists for the X-men is that it treats Banshee, Colossus, Iceman, Havok, Dazzler, and Angel many other characters like they are those first group of characters or fail notice when characters like Beast, Nightcrawler, Gambit, Storm,Kitty or Rogue have grown stagnant in stories and need a long break. X-men books have spent too much time trying recapture old magic than trying create new magic with characters like Sunspot, M, Magik, AoA Blink, Moonstar or X-23 who are on cusp of bigger stardom.

    You can make an argument that hey new characters can't surpass Wolverine and Clops but we have seen characters like Bishop, Gambit,Jubilee and Cable pass or equal Angel, Havok and Dazzler in popularity. We have seen Magik, X-23 and Emma Frost do the same as well in recent history. Magik is easily more popular than Colossus today and it is going to be even bigger after New mutants movie. Magik big growth came as member Bendis X-men run where fans got to see her as real X-man, Emma Frost growth came as member of Morrison X-men where fan got to see her as real X-man. For characters to catch on they need significant roles in significant stories and form significant relationships. The success of Emma and Magik partially comes from interactions with Cyclops. Magik has interesting friendship dynamic with Cyclops that can be explore in stories. No new character is catch on with out a hook to another main character, so every time you see new character put a team and in background it is pointless.

    This current era is doing a good job decentralizing the importance of the team "X-men" and focusing on the importance of the franchise "X-men" that is important to growth of characters because books like New Mutants, Marauders and X-force all are going to carry the big stories. And that is most important thing to growth of characters to grow to level of Cyclops/ Wolverine. In the past recipe was side X-men books built up recognition and a small base for new characters and then good run Uncanny and Adjective-less could build you into a star. The current era main X-men book is an kinda anthology with no team to feel like this is the REAL X-men and everyone else is small fries, So every book is a basically a main book giving smaller characters a chance to grow. This era will do more grow star quality characters than previous eras.


    Characters can catch on if you do the right things.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 08-12-2020 at 10:20 PM.

  12. #117
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    To your overall question other black females haven't caught on because the xmen stories are primarily about white characters, with a few tokens here or there. I think Storm just so happens to be most popular because she was leader of the team during the period they were most post popular which was when Claremont saved the franchise from tanking with the introduction of Giant Size Xmen. Moreover, all the characters during this more popular period, including Phoenix saga, were white with the exception of storm.


    1. The point might have true about the Male characters but is it true about the female characters? Is there a female black character you think has really caught on that makes this question not correct? Is there a female minority character other Storm and Jubilee that has really caught on?

    The unfortunate answer here is no within the xoffices. This again is because the characters that have been given the primary focus are white. The xmen for years and even now have heavily centered around the white characters and their vision for mutantkind. Whether its Xavier/Magneto, the O5, phoenix/dark phoenix, Summers/Grey clan, Magneto Clan, Genosha, Utopia, Schism, Wolverine/Scott and even now with Xavier/Moira/Magneto, the white characters have mostly driven the majority of the xmen stories. We can't blame the characters for this as all the aforementioned is due to the creative minds behind the stories/events.

    2. Is the love of Storm to blame for some of the lack success other characters? Does X-men franchise and fans lean to heavily on Storm as representation?

    Does the love fans have for wolverine impede the lack of success for other white characters such as Emma, Jean, Cyclops, X-23, Kitty, Magneto, Lorna, Betsy. etc? There is room at the table for multiple black female characters to exist and thrive within the same book, as BP&C, World of Wakanda, and Tanehesi Coates Black Panther demonstrated. However, what i find to be the actual issue here and not a fanbase per say is that the creators/editors at the xoffices don't believe these types of stories will sell (whether factual or not) and ultimately go with what has worked in the past, which is to include predominantly white casts with occasional tokens included. In fact, often times the tokens including storm add nothing to the story and only serve as window dressing. All in all, a fanbase shouldn't be the one to blame for the lack of diversity both in stories and those who create them, especially when you consider these factors don't exist with white characters.

    3. Is there female minority character that you think is just some focus away from being successful mainstay? Which character if you had power to push would highlight and why is it important for that character to be highlighted?


    Is there a non-white (I do not think the term minority is appropriate as when you consider white people when looking at the world population are in fact the minority) female character that is close to this?? Most certainly. The one that immediately pops up is Monet but I would like to go back to my second point, why settle for increasing focus around one or two black female characters? When we get beyond the point where an all black cast is viewed as racist and is considered just as viable an option as an all-white cast to the xoffices then I believe a lot of the points presented in the OP can truly be addressed.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  13. #118
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post

    2. Is the love of Storm to blame for some of the lack success other characters? Does X-men franchise and fans lean to heavily on Storm as representation?[/b]

    Does the love fans have for wolverine impede the lack of success for other white characters such as Emma, Jean, Cyclops, X-23, Kitty, Magneto, Lorna, Betsy. etc? There is room at the table for multiple black female characters to exist and thrive within the same book, as BP&C, World of Wakanda, and Tanehesi Coates Black Panther demonstrated. However, what i find to be the actual issue here and not a fanbase per say is that the creators/editors at the xoffices don't believe these types of stories will sell (whether factual or not) and ultimately go with what has worked in the past, which is to include predominantly white casts with occasional tokens included. In fact, often times the tokens including storm add nothing to the story and only serve as window dressing. All in all, a fanbase shouldn't be the one to blame for the lack of diversity both in stories and those who create them, especially when you consider these factors don't exist with white characters.
    This is the one I have struggled to talk about the most in this topic because clearly we know what the right answer is but clearly success of Storm has made easy to just use her and not worry about creating another character the quality of Storm. And bringing in the other thread to this discussion Bishop being slight above average as a creation hasn't prompted the creators to create a better character and push them because there isn't a A+ quality black male character. So yes the answer is it is not successful character fault because just good characters like Sunspot and Bishop have prompted them make a better character either.

    100% percent I know the answer is adding more characters and not removing one to add another but I have seen reluctance of comics to make diversity a priority and you at times wonder what if Storm "slot" was given to another character and they use that chance to grow.But like you said there is room at table for multiple characters but of course some creators in the X-universe who made a team with zero minorities that means they just show and up get stabbed in the head for drama.

    Anyways another question for the thread do think Domino should be officially made black character?

  14. #119
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Domino is one of the LAST characters who needs to be black. That's almost as racist as Darwin. Black woman conveniently has mutation that makes her white.

    Again, Darwin already covered skin bleaching to become the "ultimate & final evolution, known as the white man." As the real Darwin often talked about when his "science" proved people of color were not fully evolved & that white skin was the final evolution.

    Plus the only reason most would think she is would be DP II and Marvel needs to stop letting films influence comics.. Some characters had their downfall with that and some have gotten WAAAAY too much favoritism because of it..
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 08-12-2020 at 11:28 PM.

  15. #120
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Domino is one of the LAST characters who needs to be black. That's almost as racist as Darwin. Black woman conveniently has mutation that makes her white. Again, Darwin already covered skin bleaching to become the "ultimate & final evolution -the white man." As the real Darwin often talked about when his "science" proved people of color were not fully evolved humans.

    Plus the only reason most would think she is would be DP II and Marvel needs to stop letting films influence comics.. Some characters had their downfall with that.
    It is not a matter of character "needs" to black, She is character has been portrayed as black on the big screen AND she managed to go years with out them clearly ever defining what her race is in the comics. Yes it is problematic that they are ton of black characters like Bling, Blink, Apocalypse,Darwin, Genesis, etc are black but you can't see that of African descent. So there is bit of here is your representation a character that does not look like you.

    I still think it is problematic as well that editors go yeah this character is "Blue" don't worry about fleshing out their background and embracing their ethnicity because they are blue. I get your point but fleshing Domino racial background would only help the character whatever direction they decide to go with it. And the name Neena Thurman doesn't scream out to me as a white name.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 08-12-2020 at 11:40 PM.

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