Why haven't any of the Black female X-men caught on other than Storm?

[marhawkman]

hmm soooo because I can... looking at X-Statix series:
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Dee_Milo_(Earth-616)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Trois_(Earth-616)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Ms._Fingers_(Earth-616)

Yes two of them technically got killed off, but... well resurrection thingy?

[Kingdom X]

The reason Cecilia doesn't get used more frequently IMO, is that at her core, she's against so much of what happens in these books. At the end of the day, these books are centered around conflict of opposing sides, and Cecilia naturally doesn't want to partake in combat. She will if she has to, but her nature is to do the opposite of what we see: heal people. She's a doctor first and foremost, and going out on missions to beat the crap out of people goes against that. Cecilia wants to save people, not harm them. A book has to use her very specifically, otherwise you're going against what's true to the character. That's why we often see her in a supporting role, and not featured in a roster. This isn't the case 100% of the time, but I feel like more often than naught, it is. She'd be great in like a search and rescue kind of book, where she can use her powers more in defense of helping people, instead of hurting the opposition. Also, Cecilia's new costume is great.

I know it'd be incredibly difficult, but I'd still love to see Shard somehow come back. I've always been a fan of the character.

This is a really good point. I do think there’s a lot of story potential that can come from the conflict of healer vs. fighter but a lot of writers aren’t digging that deep and if they are it’s certainly not with lower-tier characters.

[marhawkman]

Cecilia's also odd in that her skills as a person have nearly nothing to do with her powers. It's like "Hi, I'm professional doctor, but also I have mutant forcefield powers."

In one way it makes perfect sense. She chose to be a doctor and her powers are just.. there, they chose her. But it creates a weird character dichotomy.

[Odd Rödney]

He's still white. The black version is a different character

I really don't like that they did that. How much has Marcus Johnson turned up in comics since he was introduced? They should've just brought Ultimate Nick Fury over when they brought Miles Morales in during Secret Wars.

[marhawkman]

I really don't like that they did that. How much has Marcus Johnson turned up in comics since he was introduced? They should've just brought Ultimate Nick Fury over when they brought Miles Morales in during Secret Wars.

Wasn't the ultimate Nick Fury... the son of the Ultimate counterpart of the original one?

[Odd Rödney]

Wasn't the ultimate Nick Fury... the son of the Ultimate counterpart of the original one?

I don't know but that sentence is inherently confusing, lol. I just think that you had a good, established Nick Fury in Ult. Fury. He was already developed and ready to go. Just my preference is all.

[Havok83]

Cecilia's also odd in that her skills as a person have nearly nothing to do with her powers. It's like "Hi, I'm professional doctor, but also I have mutant forcefield powers."

In one way it makes perfect sense. She chose to be a doctor and her powers are just.. there, they chose her. But it creates a weird character dichotomy.

Mutations arent linked to a person's working profession. With that said, I think hers fits as its purely defensive (despite her eventually learning to use it offensively). Her powers allows her to protect others and shield them from injury, which isnt too far from her sense to help as a doctor

[Grunty]

Speaking of CeCe Reyes
I've Always thought of Marrow as black or Latina etc.
Not because of her "sassy attitude" but more cause of her experiences living on The Hill+Gene Nation manifesto

Are you by chance, comparing her experience of growing up on The Hill and being a member of Gene Nation, to that of young people who grow up in urban slums or war torn areas of developing countries were criminal gangs or paramilitary groups might draw said youths into a life of violence?

Because one could indeed see a bit of parallel between these two situation. However the super natural aspect of The Hill and Gene Nation, combined with the disconnect from the rest of the Marvel Universe and anything linked to the real world, hinders said comparision.

Marrow in general is in a weird position ethnic/cultural identity wise when one thinks about it, since her character is entirely defined by being a mutant above all else.

Born as mutant (possibly in a lab, so without biological parents), she never knew any other kind of existence than being that. Her childhood was entirely based around a sheltered life where the only ethnic/cultural distinctions were between the "normal" looking humans and mutants above ground and the "ugly" mutants in the underground, which also warped her entire perspective on the world in general (see her comment to Kitty in that X-men Unlimited story with Flag Smasher).
On the Hill said disconnected upbringing continued, only now it was hammered into her head that the "normals" were the hated enemy to be fought and killed by the "superior uglies", rather than just an unseen force to be afraid of.

Even after mellowing down somewhat since her return from the Hill and having actualy spend some time in the regular Marvel universe, she can still only define herself as being a mutant and former Morlock.
White, black, latino, asian, those terms were never of much importance to her environment, since it's just "normal" skin colors and appearances, compared to being an "ugly" (disfigured, weird, odd) mutant.

So in universe she is is entirely fused to the mutant minority identity, but only to that, so by real life standards she is just another white character. Hence filling no noteworthy ethnic or cultural identity role.

Gene Nation and Marrow are a bit of a wasted potential in my opinion (a sad pattern with a lot in the late 90's it seems). I remember reading they were created with the idea of second generation morlocks who would rebel against their parents tradition of hiding from the world, by violently lashing out against and getting "in the face" of the normal humans.
Which could have had much more story potential than a bunch of extremist raised in a pocket dimension, with no clue about the regular normal world. Making them like a less interesting version of The Children of the Vault.
Being closer to alien invaders than something comparable to real world issues of violent youths created by poverty, exclusion or oppression.

[Will Evans]

Are you by chance, comparing her experience of growing up on The Hill and being a member of Gene Nation, to that of young people who grow up in urban slums or war torn areas of developing countries were criminal gangs or paramilitary groups might draw said youths into a life of violence?

Because one could indeed see a bit of parallel between these two situation. However the super natural aspect of The Hill and Gene Nation, combined with the disconnect from the rest of the Marvel Universe and anything linked to the real world, hinders said comparision.

Marrow in general is in a weird position ethnic/cultural identity wise when one thinks about it, since her character is entirely defined by being a mutant above all else.

Born as mutant (possibly in a lab, so without biological parents), she never knew any other kind of existence than being that. Her childhood was entirely based around a sheltered life where the only ethnic/cultural distinctions were between the "normal" looking humans and mutants above ground and the "ugly" mutants in the underground, which also warped her entire perspective on the world in general (see her comment to Kitty in that X-men Unlimited story with Flag Smasher).
On the Hill said disconnected upbringing continued, only now it was hammered into her head that the "normals" were the hated enemy to be fought and killed by the "superior uglies", rather than just an unseen force to be afraid of.

Even after mellowing down somewhat since her return from the Hill and having actualy spend some time in the regular Marvel universe, she can still only define herself as being a mutant and former Morlock.
White, black, latino, asian, those terms were never of much importance to her environment, since it's just "normal" skin colors and appearances, compared to being an "ugly" (disfigured, weird, odd) mutant.

So in universe she is is entirely fused to the mutant minority identity, but only to that, so by real life standards she is just another white character. Hence filling no noteworthy ethnic or cultural identity role.

Gene Nation and Marrow are a bit of a wasted potential in my opinion (a sad pattern with a lot in the late 90's it seems). I remember reading they were created with the idea of second generation morlocks who would rebel against their parents tradition of hiding from the world, by violently lashing out against and getting "in the face" of the normal humans.
Which could have had much more story potential than a bunch of extremist raised in a pocket dimension, with no clue about the regular normal world. Making them like a less interesting version of The Children of the Vault.
Being closer to alien invaders than something comparable to real world issues of violent youths created by poverty, exclusion or oppression.

When Sinister canceled all mutant powers in 1999, as part of a storyline. All weird looking mutants converting to how they looked if they were born normal. Like Nightcrawler.


How did Marrow appear when she was changed to a normal human?

[Triniking1234]

When Sinister canceled all mutant powers in 1999, as part of a storyline. All weird looking mutants converting to how they looked if they were born normal. Like Nightcrawler.


How did Marrow appear when she was changed to a normal human?

You realise Marrow looks like a normal human but with extra bones, right?

[Grunty]

You realise Marrow looks like a normal human but with extra bones, right?

There is also the minor part of her hair and skin pigmentation. Of course colorist have the tendency to not always get it right. But her hair is traditional of a strong pink tone, while her skin color had a pink or purple tint in them (the later gets lost more often than her hair color).

Internaly there is also a second heart, which could point towards even more of her internal biology being mutated.

But besides that, it's all the bone growths yes. Those disappeared during the 1999 storyline btw. but remained after M-Day.

[Havok83]

You realise Marrow looks like a normal human but with extra bones, right?

LOL...yeah. There was hardly a change in her appearance

[Huntsman Spider]

Meanwhile some of those same folks get to star in their own blockbuster Oscar winning movie.

Or have New York Times Best Sellers.

Or tv shows.

Or have trades that outsell folks like Batman.

Or star in blockbuster movies.

Maybe that is indictment of the Direct Market. Who will scream no one wants to see GI Jane Carol Danvers, A King from Africa, A talking road killer and tree, a FAT girl who talks to animals, a biracial Spider-Man and a nerdy black girl and her dino.

Funny what happens when you leave that market.

Maybe stop hiring folks like Coates and retread dinosaurs and get folks who can write.

Good point there. In a way, the direct market has been more harmful to the cause of a more inclusive and representative mainstream comics industry than a lot of people want to admit, because the direct market is (still) dominated by those who prefer an increasingly untenable status quo that nonetheless keeps them and people who resemble them in central positions, both in-universe and in real life. That's what it boils down to in the end, (a lot of) those same people who refuse to give up their sense of dominion over what stories get told, how they get told, and who gets to tell them in the first place.

[Killerbee911]

The reason Cecilia doesn't get used more frequently IMO, is that at her core, she's against so much of what happens in these books. At the end of the day, these books are centered around conflict of opposing sides, and Cecilia naturally doesn't want to partake in combat. She will if she has to, but her nature is to do the opposite of what we see: heal people. She's a doctor first and foremost, and going out on missions to beat the crap out of people goes against that. Cecilia wants to save people, not harm them. A book has to use her very specifically, otherwise you're going against what's true to the character. That's why we often see her in a supporting role, and not featured in a roster. This isn't the case 100% of the time, but I feel like more often than naught, it is. She'd be great in like a search and rescue kind of book, where she can use her powers more in defense of helping people, instead of hurting the opposition. Also, Cecilia's new costume is great.
.

That doesn't really make sense if you think about

1. So we have set away from in universe logic for second and I agree with your point some what. Put yourself in the creators shoes you are creating a character for X-men, are you really creating a character that is NEVER going to grow comfortable with combat in some aspect? The Cecelia you see in books is incomplete because they never finished her journey. They created a great pitch "a character who didn't want to be on the X-men and who views for fighting would clear be different from most" which would make for great drama. It worked before Wolverine and Nightcrawler/Colossus/Ororo who were great together because Wolverine was a savage and they were all different degrees of violence and you see it at times Nightcrawler and Colossus are pretty much pacifists. Anyways the point is Nightcrawler and Colossus are functioning X-men despite their philosophy on violence, Wolverine evolved from being a straight up Berserker as well . Cecilia if given time to develop would have found her philosophy.

2. CeCe powerset is defensive nature and if you look at character like Sue Storm who has similar power. Cecelia when you expand her powers out she has the ability to fight with out harming people. So no Cece can very much go out on mission and

A. Look to help people in danger first
B. Use her powers to protect her teammates
C. Use her powers to nonviolent takeout enemies
D. Straight up refuse to fight and voice her opinion on using violent solutions

She is would be an amazing addition to stories. Wolverine in stories is the voice of every fan who goes " Yeah you should have just killed the Villain right away" Well CeCe in stories would be voice of fans who go "Hey why don't they just talk about the issue instead of fighting". Cecelia very much has the powerset to go out on missions and go rogue as pacifist much in the same way Wolverine goes rogue with violence. It is absolute story gold if Cyclops goes " Hey you need to attack those people" Cece goes "Nope, I am going to just sit here and wait until you guys are done fighting". But like I said at some point she would find her rhythm in combat, She wouldn't want to she her teammates hurt and she wouldn't the bad guys hurting people so she would be forced at some point to be proactive in some form. Cecelia Reyes got removed from the books before they finished her journey and complete her development.

[Soulsword323]

That doesn't really make sense if you think about

1. So we have set away from in universe logic for second and I agree with your point some what. Put yourself in the creators shoes you are creating a character for X-men, are you really creating a character that is NEVER going to grow comfortable with combat in some aspect? The Cecelia you see in books is incomplete because they never finished her journey. They created a great pitch "a character who didn't want to be on the X-men and who views for fighting would clear be different from most" which would make for great drama. It worked before Wolverine and Nightcrawler/Colossus/Ororo who were great together because Wolverine was a savage and they were all different degrees of violence and you see it at times Nightcrawler and Colossus are pretty much pacifists. Anyways the point is Nightcrawler and Colossus are functioning X-men despite their philosophy on violence, Wolverine evolved from being a straight up Berserker as well . Cecilia if given time to develop would have found her philosophy.

2. CeCe powerset is defensive nature and if you look at character like Sue Storm who has similar power. Cecelia when you expand her powers out she has the ability to fight with out harming people. So no Cece can very much go out on mission and

A. Look to help people in danger first
B. Use her powers to protect her teammates
C. Use her powers to nonviolent takeout enemies
D. Straight up refuse to fight and voice her opinion on using violent solutions

She is would be an amazing addition to stories. Wolverine in stories is the voice of every fan who goes " Yeah you should have just killed the Villain right away" Well CeCe in stories would be voice of fans who go "Hey why don't they just talk about the issue instead of fighting". Cecelia very much has the powerset to go out on missions and go rogue as pacifist much in the same way Wolverine goes rogue with violence. It is absolute story gold if Cyclops goes " Hey you need to attack those people" Cece goes "Nope, I am going to just sit here and wait until you guys are done fighting". But like I said at some point she would find her rhythm in combat, She wouldn't want to she her teammates hurt and she wouldn't the bad guys hurting people so she would be forced at some point to be proactive in some form. Cecelia Reyes got removed from the books before they finished her journey and complete her development.

At the end of the day, writers can do whatever they want. They could use her more frequently, but I just don't think it lines up with what the character herself wants. She serves a specific purpose, and that's what writers utilize her for. She's the doctor that comes in, gives some type of medical exposition, and spends the rest of the time with the patient or in the medlab until she's needed again. It's where she's most comfortable. I'd love to see her on a mission or two, and we should, but I just don't think she want's to spend most of her time doing that.

Cecilia does work really well as a foil, and that's what made her addition in the 90s so refreshing, but I think you can only justify her going out there so much. The characters core is very much tied to being a doctor, and that's what makes her unique, and I think unfortunately boxes her in. I'm not saying she was created to never be highlighted, I just think that she needs a team with a more specific purpose than fighting bad guys. She'd be perfect for a team like the current X-Factor. Investigating death could really highlight her medical expertise.

I do agree that we never got to finish her arc though. Her transition from X-Men to Neverland, are all things that no one's bothered to explain or explore. There is a lot of untapped potential, and I hope a writer will take the time to do that with Cecilia.