DC Speculation -- how will layoffs affect the Bat books?

[gregpersons]

Red Hood will become bigger than Robin, or Nightwing, or Batgirl. It could be argued he already is there, but Jason is getting a ton of media and fan focus, and in a streamlined version of DC, I can't imagine him being used less. I think they're looking at him like the DC version of Wolverine or Punisher, and he's going to start becoming equally as visible in books and merchandise.

Harley Quinn has the potential to become bigger than the Joker, or at least as popular in the culture. It depends, they haven't quite found the exact right set of circumstances for her to really blow up -- either the thing is good and nobody sees it, or its not so good and everybody sees it. I can definitely see this character becoming the #1 most popular DC character in the right situation. I know that sounds preposterous given BOP's performance! I'm buying in on this hot take while the stock value is low.

[DurararaFTW]

Like, I think having Nightwing & Red Hood both as Titans makes a ton of sense, I am sort of like -- why aren't they already the backbone of the team, as a yin/yang ex-Robin dynamic?

Because Nightwing is in charge in Titans books, and it's pretty out of character for Red Hood to take Nightwing's orders. Their yin-yang kinda relies on the fact that Batman and Nightwing disapproves of Red Hood's methods and Red Hood thinks Batman & Nightwing's methods aren't the best way to deal with things. Red Hood was who the Joker was before he came into contact with Batman for the first time. The whole Jason chose the identity as a indictment of Batman. Pre-death Jason, like in the TV series is a different story.

[gregpersons]

Oh yeah, that was the series he got after coming back from the dead I think? Still, I don't get why not just a Robin titled series like there is a Batgirl and Nightwing one. You figure the Robin brand would be strong enough for it.

I mean, I agree. I have no idea what DC is thinking, or AT&T, or whoever ultimately decides these things and hopefully it changes to a new view. Because for the last... I mean I think really everything since the 80s, the original splitting of the atom, breaking "Robin" out into "Robin and Nightwing"... the overall treatment of "Robin" as an IP has been all around messed up. When "Robin" stopped being synonymous with one individual, it's what allowed the "Death of Robin" to stick in a way that "Death of Superman" can't ... they didn't replace Kal-El with a new Kryptonian who happened to look the same, Kal-El just came back from the dead.

They probably see "Dead Robin" as better business than "Robin" ... but it just seems like they're embarrassed by the mere idea at Robin as anything other than a joke, like how DC was with Aquaman until recently.

Anyway I don't get it because anybody who read the Robin series pre-52 loved it, and it seems clear that "Robin" should just be "Spider-Man" to Batman's Tony Stark. The ongoing series got that really right.

[gregpersons]

Because Nightwing is in charge in Titans books, and it's pretty out of character for Red Hood to take Nightwing's orders. Their yin-yang kinda relies on the fact that Batman and Nightwing disapproves of Red Hood's methods and Red Hood thinks Batman & Nightwing's methods aren't the best way to deal with things. Red Hood was who the Joker was before he came into contact with Batman for the first time. The whole Jason chose the identity as a indictment of Batman. Pre-death Jason, like in the TV series is a different story.

Yeah. I mean that's why it would be an interesting dynamic for a team. It's basically Cyclops and Wolverine, or the younger version of Superman and Batman. You've got the boy scout and the rebel. It's a great dynamic. You can get any story contrivance to justify it.

Edit -- Plus I mean they're "brothers" by having the same ninja mentor. I think Dick & Jason would be like the Bat version of Leonardo and Raphael in TMNT

[DurararaFTW]

Yeah. I mean that's why it would be an interesting dynamic for a team. It's basically Cyclops and Wolverine, or the younger version of Superman and Batman. You've got the boy scout and the rebel. It's a great dynamic. You can get any story contrivance to justify it.

Cyclops and Wolverine are different beings, differently trained with different powers but both mutants, to whom the X-Men profess to open their doors too. What Wolverine is, happened/was done to him and is irreversable. He can't just leave his claws and berserker rages at home. Gotham's doors are not open to Superman pitching in to help whenever he wants, let alone anyone that is stone cold unwilling to follow Batman's rules. Nightwing and Red Hood are both human, have the same training and the same options available. Red Hood choses to bring guns and lethal force into it. That's a status quo that works for occasional team ups, but if Red Hood is on a team that Nightwing is in charge of, coming on missions, shooting villians, Nightwing complaining but unable or unwilling to do anything about month in, month out, it's pretty different.

[Rise]

You forgot to mention the part where Jason was tortured and killed when he was just a kid. He didn't wake up someday and suddenly decided to kill, people, he is the way he is because of what happened to him. He is still responsible for his actions same way Wolverine is.

[DurararaFTW]

You forgot to mention the part where Jason was tortured and killed when he was just a kid. He didn't wake up someday and suddenly decided to kill, people, he is the way he is because of what happened to him. He is still responsible for his actions same way Wolverine is.

If Nightwing and the Titans Tower by some (massive) contrivance is the only Jason can have a home it would then make sense to take him in. This takes serious agency away from Jason, an adult, independent hero. Going on missions is still a different matter, taking his guns with him to kill people with is a concious decision Jason makes every individual time, Nightwing, as leader should have something to say about that. As does everyone else on the team that doesn't consider lethal force as part of the Ttans mission statement.

Having Red Hood on the team and not hold him up to same rules he holds himself too would be a massive detriment to Nightwing's character, joining Nightwing's team and following his rules would be massive detriment to Red Hood's character. I don't see how this would serve either of them really.

[Rise]

Uh, what? I'm simply pointing out the double standards of your argument regarding Wolverine. You are the one who taking the agency from Wolverine (who is much older than Jason and I said that BOTH of them are responsible for their actions). Jason was in worse situation than Wolverine and didn't have any home before the outlaws become his family.

I don't actually care about Titans nor I necessary want Jason in the team, but your excuses are just excuses and your Wolverine justification make zero sense.

[DurararaFTW]

Uh, what? I'm simply pointing out the double standards of your argument regarding Wolverine. You are the one who taking the agency from Wolverine (who is much older than Jason and I said that BOTH of them are responsible for their actions). Jason was in worse situation than Wolverine and didn't have any home before the outlaws become his family.

I don't actually care about Titans nor I necessary want Jason in the team, but your excuses are just excuses and your Wolverine justification make zero sense.

Wolverine had motives to stay with the X-Men beyond just generally feeling like hanging out. He believes in fighting for Xavier's dream, and initially wanting help regaining his memories it then went on to become a home for him. Before that the members of X-Men were nobody to him, and Xavier's approached him for help with the captured X-Men. Jason has barely set foot, it does not have an equivalent mission statement like the X-Men do about fighting for mutant rights (a group that Wolverine specifically belongs to), but he does have preexisting problems with Batman and by extention Nightwing. The whole reason for the Red Hood identity is wrapped up in being contrary to Batman's ways. Wolverine was just a superhero in canada that Xavier found on Cerebro because he's a fellow mutant. They are not in the same boat.

[Zaresh]

At this point Jason's life is a trauma conga line, when you take into account most of the stuff that's currently kind of in continuity. This is not something that forgives him of his behaviour (or takes away his choices and agenda), but it counts for extenuating circumstance, I think. Edit: It explains why he does sheet so to speak.

1. Criminal father and addict mother. Parents were fighting (domestic violence is implied) and he mayhap was hit now and them, besides having to take care of his mother at certain point onwards. Turns out now that the father started to go into higher, riskier criminal jobs because Jason needed medical assistance when he was a baby. He learns about this very late on for more angst in a very touching issue. Father was ultimately "killed" by the villain of the week one way or another (this is something constant whatever the continuity is). Not good role models to properly learn from, didn't stick for a lot, and the environment at home was a mess.
2. Orphaned, stays by himself in the street for what I guess was a short time. Ends resorting into stealing stuff. Eventually gets catch by the Batman and sent to some corrupt dickensian home for street teens. Before the New 52, it was kind of insinuated that he did darker stuff than stealing. Or had to witness it. It's not in continuity anymore. He now had deals with some teen gans, though (I think). Not a nice environment either.
3. Because he has his heart in the right place (this is me being biased, but it's true, it's true), he ends up helping Batman catching the mafiosi grandma and stopping the illicit business and the other criminal teen trainees at the home. Bruce take him in.
4. These are quiet days for a while. Not much of Dick around (because he was being the star in the Teen Titans and Titans office and Batman office weren't getting along a lot, I think. But I digress. In any case...). By New 52 / Rebirth continuity, Dick and Jason had initial frictions, but amended soon. In old continuity, Dick and Jason didn't see each other a lot because reasons. Also, because COIE was a year long and stuff happens, you know? Whatever. The point is, not much of Dick around, Barbara was kind of off the radar too. Not his own teen of sidekick friends like the Titans or the JY. Not other teen vigilantes to work with. Mostly, only Bruce and Alfred. Not a lot of characters giving him support in helping with his already messed up upbringing. Still, he was lovely and kickass, if post-Crisis is still canon in that regard.
5. If The Cult is still in continuity, that was the first time Bruce emotionally broke big time. It also was the times when Bruce started to operate more internationally, and started to fail now and them. This is the context for that "diplomat son" story everyone knows about, that has, iirc, Jason finding the victim of a rapist hanging herself because she couldn't bear the guy getting away and out the country. Afterwards, he gets benched. I don't know if that's still in continuity. I think it's not in cont, but I don't recall anything explicit retconning it out of cont now.
6. Enter the Joker. Or, well, if you follow the New 52 continuity. the Joker was in the game all along from day one. Ehhhh... In any case, Jason finds out that his mother (being Catherine or Sheila) is still alive, goes find her and, in the end, is beaten up, tortured and killed by the Joker. He was 16 in the current cont, and 14 in the old one, I think.
7. But because he's such a toy for the Universe, he wakes up in his coffin, six feet under, and has to dig himself out his grave. Yeah, this is still in continuity. And I like it. Sue me.
8. Talia finds him. Because reasons. Now he's a plaything for the al Ghuls. Well, New 52 Talia at least isn't as manipulative as post-Crisis. Jason is clearly holding a serious grunge against his old fam at this point. I mean, being a revenant sure does marvelous things to your psyche; and she tried to tame him in this new cont, and delay him in the old one. She also seems to care for him both times. But she also used him, clearly. To what degree he was aware of her manipulating him, and how much she was controlling his already distorted perception, is something I think it's up to debate. This is a powerful cult with strong indoctrination techniques. Working a teenager with serious issues who is already writing his own, very personal agenda coloured by hard experiences, grief and what they choose to tell him. A thing I like about the all-caste is that they do give Jason some decent role model before he reaches his 18, even when he leaves them.
9. He comes back to Gotham, and something like Under the Hood happens. And you know how it more or less follows.

So, er, I guess it's not worse than Cassandra or Damian's own stories, but he didn't have much of a support system to help him behaving, growing up, maturing much different. There's a story why he's how he is to also go with a strong personality.

[Rise]

Yes, "ways". Red Hood isn't contrary to Batman in his goal and motivation because they both want to protect the innocent and fight criminals.

If someone decided to write a story with Red Hood as part of Titans (which already happened btw), it's not impossible as you make it to be. Like Cyclops and Wolverine, Nightwing and Red Hood were both orphans, taken by the same person, fighting for the same thing and fought in the same team (Jason did team up with the titans when he was a robin). Their ways are different, but not their goals.

[Ascended]

Why would Jason be in limbo when he has a live action appearance (where he was very well received), game appearances and a movie coming soon?

Same with Kate and Tim. Even without a book, Kate still show up from time to time and unlike Dick and Barbara, she actually had her own tv show (even if it was a bit of disaster). I also doubt Tim will be limbo since he is a former Robin and I think Cass has more likely chance to have book now than before.

Bear in mind, I'm just talking about Jason's solo book in the direct market. If I remember right, Red Hood sells somewhere around 20K. That's not great; the book is a critical darling everyone loves but it doesn't sell well. Jason will stick around of course, but I'm guessing it'll be in someone else's title or in a team. Maybe they'll tweak the Outlaws into more of a team title so some C-listers have a home (propped up with bigger names of course), maybe Jason will join the Squad, or hang out in 'Tec or a Batfam book, who knows? But the odds of the Red Hood book surviving in the direct market, unchanged from its current design, seem low to me; DC is downsizing so why keep a title that doesn't sell well? At best they'll change the way they handle the title, at worst they'll cancel it. Jason will still appear somewhere regardless.

In Jason's case, while he'll stick around the direct market in some fashion but probably not as a solo star, I think he's got really good odds of a Red Hood digital series or OGN. People do love the character and his book has had great reviews, and in those other formats he might easily find the sales success he's missed in the direct market. It's not that DC will stop using or pushing him, and more that they'll do it in formats other than the direct market where he has better odds of selling well.

And if the current Red Hood book sells better than I'm thinking it does, that obviously increases the odds of surviving the culling.

And the same applies to the others; many of the Bats will find a book in the direct market, but as part of a team or as a supporting cast member; they'll still appear in the direct market to some degree but probably not headline any solo's. But in other formats, they could easily get projects.

Keep in mind; losing a direct market book does not equate to DC abandoning the characters. They're narrowing their direct market focus down to their biggest stars and best books, but they're also increasing their efforts in digital and (presumably) OGN's, so the company and their IP's are less dependent on the small, broken direct market. So if the Red Hood title is cancelled and Jason gets stuck as a secondary character somewhere, that's not a big deal because he'll almost certainly get a OGN or digital series. Same with the rest; Kate might only appear as an occasional guest star in the direct market or something, but could get effort and focus in other formats with her own digital books or bookstore trades.

[DurararaFTW]

You are the one who taking the agency from Wolverine (who is much older than Jason and I said that BOTH of them are responsible for their actions).

Wolverine is responsible for using lethal force when he uses lethal force, he is not responsible for not leaving his deadly claws behind on missions, nor is Cyclops responsible for not demanding Wolverine leaves his deadly claws behind when going out. Even if they were removed, which is close to impossible, they'd grow back within an hour. Red Hood chooses to not leave lethal force behind at the start of the mission and Nightwing is gonna have to choose to let him. It's not an equal situation to the X-Men.

[Rise]

Bear in mind, I'm just talking about Jason's solo book in the direct market. If I remember right, Red Hood sells somewhere around 20K. That's not great; the book is a critical darling everyone loves but it doesn't sell well. Jason will stick around of course, but I'm guessing it'll be in someone else's title or in a team. Maybe they'll tweak the Outlaws into more of a team title so some C-listers have a home (propped up with bigger names of course), maybe Jason will join the Squad, or hang out in 'Tec or a Batfam book, who knows? But the odds of the Red Hood book surviving in the direct market, unchanged from its current design, seem low to me; DC is downsizing so why keep a title that doesn't sell well? At best they'll change the way they handle the title, at worst they'll cancel it. Jason will still appear somewhere regardless.

In Jason's case, while he'll stick around the direct market in some fashion but probably not as a solo star, I think he's got really good odds of a Red Hood digital series or OGN. People do love the character and his book has had great reviews, and in those other formats he might easily find the sales success he's missed in the direct market. It's not that DC will stop using or pushing him, and more that they'll do it in formats other than the direct market where he has better odds of selling well.

And if the current Red Hood book sells better than I'm thinking it does, that obviously increases the odds of surviving the culling.

And the same applies to the others; many of the Bats will find a book in the direct market, but as part of a team or as a supporting cast member; they'll still appear in the direct market to some degree but probably not headline any solo's. But in other formats, they could easily get projects.

Keep in mind; losing a direct market book does not equate to DC abandoning the characters. They're narrowing their direct market focus down to their biggest stars and best books, but they're also increasing their efforts in digital and (presumably) OGN's, so the company and their IP's are less dependent on the small, broken direct market. So if the Red Hood title is cancelled and Jason gets stuck as a secondary character somewhere, that's not a big deal because he'll almost certainly get a OGN or digital series. Same with the rest; Kate might only appear as an occasional guest star in the direct market or something, but could get effort and focus in other formats with her own digital books or bookstore trades.

That I don't disagree with. I even wish that they would cancel Outlaws all together and give us an OGN with Jason instead.

[Konja7]

At this point Jason's life is a trauma conga line, when you take into account most of the stuff that's currently kind of in continuity. This is not something that forgives him of his behaviour (or takes away his choices and agenda), but it counts for extenuating circumstance, I think. Edit: It explains why he does sheet so to speak.

1. Criminal father and addict mother. Parents were fighting (domestic violence is implied) and he mayhap was hit now and them, besides having to take care of his mother at certain point onwards. Turns out now that the father started to go into higher, riskier criminal jobs because Jason needed medical assistance when he was a baby. He learns about this very late on for more angst in a very touching issue. Father was ultimately "killed" by the villain of the week one way or another (this is something constant whatever the continuity is). Not good role models to properly learn from, didn't stick for a lot, and the environment at home was a mess.
2. Orphaned, stays by himself in the street for what I guess was a short time. Ends resorting into stealing stuff. Eventually gets catch by the Batman and sent to some corrupt dickensian home for street teens. Before the New 52, it was kind of insinuated that he did darker stuff than stealing. Or had to witness it. It's not in continuity anymore. He now had deals with some teen gans, though (I think). Not a nice environment either.
3. Because he has his heart in the right place (this is me being biased, but it's true, it's true), he ends up helping Batman catching the mafiosi grandma and stopping the illicit business and the other criminal teen trainees at the home. Bruce take him in.
4. These are quiet days for a while. Not much of Dick around (because he was being the star in the Teen Titans and Titans office and Batman office weren't getting along a lot, I think. But I digress. In any case...). By New 52 / Rebirth continuity, Dick and Jason had initial frictions, but amended soon. In old continuity, Dick and Jason didn't see each other a lot because reasons. Also, because COIE was a year long and stuff happens, you know? Whatever. The point is, not much of Dick around, Barbara was kind of off the radar too. Not his own teen of sidekick friends like the Titans or the JY. Not other teen vigilantes to work with. Mostly, only Bruce and Alfred. Not a lot of characters giving him support in helping with his already messed up upbringing. Still, he was lovely and kickass, if post-Crisis is still canon in that regard.
5. If The Cult is still in continuity, that was the first time Bruce emotionally broke big time. It also was the times when Bruce started to operate more internationally, and started to fail now and them. This is the context for that "diplomat son" story everyone knows about, that has, iirc, Jason finding the victim of a rapist hanging herself because she couldn't bear the guy getting away and out the country. Afterwards, he gets benched. I don't know if that's still in continuity. I think it's not in cont, but I don't recall anything explicit retconning it out of cont now.
6. Enter the Joker. Or, well, if you follow the New 52 continuity. the Joker was in the game all along from day one. Ehhhh... In any case, Jason finds out that his mother (being Catherine or Sheila) is still alive, goes find her and, in the end, is beaten up, tortured and killed by the Joker. He was 16 in the current cont, and 14 in the old one, I think.
7. But because he's such a toy for the Universe, he wakes up in his coffin, six feet under, and has to dig himself out his grave. Yeah, this is still in continuity. And I like it. Sue me.
8. Talia finds him. Because reasons. Now he's a plaything for the al Ghuls. Well, New 52 Talia at least isn't as manipulative as post-Crisis. Jason is clearly holding a serious grunge against his old fam at this point. I mean, being a revenant sure does marvelous things to your psyche; and she tried to tame him in this new cont, and delay him in the old one. She also seems to care for him both times. But she also used him, clearly. To what degree he was aware of her manipulating him, and how much she was controlling his already distorted perception, is something I think it's up to debate. This is a powerful cult with strong indoctrination techniques. Working a teenager with serious issues who is already writing his own, very personal agenda coloured by hard experiences, grief and what they choose to tell him. A thing I like about the all-caste is that they do give Jason some decent role model before he reaches his 18, even when he leaves them.
9. He comes back to Gotham, and something like Under the Hood happens. And you know how it more or less follows.

So, er, I guess it's not worse than Cassandra or Damian's own stories, but he didn't have much of a support system to help him behaving, growing up, maturing much different. There's a story why he's how he is to also go with a strong personality.

Honestly, I would forget most details of this continuity about Jason, since I suspect DC will forget too.

They will keep the general aspects, but details about his family, life and other aspects are likely changed or retconned.

The basic líneas would be this: Jason was an orphan and lived on the streets until he met Batman. He became Robin and was killed by the Joker. He was resurrected by the Al Ghul. He become an antihero.

Of course, this is still pretty traumatic.