DC Speculation -- how will layoffs affect the Bat books?

[Zaresh]

Honestly, I would forget most details of this continuity about Jason, since I suspect DC will forget too.

They will keep the general aspectos, but details abot his family and other aspectos are likely changed or retconned.

Jason was an orphan and lived on the streets until he met Batman. He became Robin and was killed by the Joker. He was resurrected by the Al Ghul. He become an antihero.

This is pretty traumatic.

Well, it's pretty much the same, but shorted. I would add feelings of betrayal and manipulatio to the summary, but, yeah. Quite traumatic however you choose to tell the story. And a reason for him to choose his choices as a vigilante.

I still want the mysterious resurrection witn the coffin scene. I'm not sorry. It's pretty intense and traumatic and baddass and B movieish and I love it. Anyone gets to be resurrected by the pit nowadays. So boring.

[dietrich]

Well, it's pretty much the same, but shorted. I would add feelings of betrayal and manipulatio to the summary, but, yeah. Quite traumatic however you choose to tell the story. And a reason for him to choose his choices as a vigilante.

I still want the mysterious resurrection witn the coffin scene. I'm not sorry. It's pretty intense and traumatic and baddass and B movieish and I love it. Anyone gets to be resurrected by the pit nowadays. So boring.

I don't think anyone else in the comics has been resurrected by the pit since jason

[Digifiend]

There was that Super Sons OGN but nobody likes those because they pick people who know nothing about them... I don't know if they ever continue it.

That Super Sons OGN is actually a trilogy. Only two other OGNs in that range have earned sequels - the Teen Titans one, which started with Raven, has Beast Boy in the follow up and is then meant to have them together in a third, and Dear Justice League, which was followed up by a villain counterpart.

If Nightwing and the Titans Tower by some (massive) contrivance is the only Jason can have a home it would then make sense to take him in. This takes serious agency away from Jason, an adult, independent hero. Going on missions is still a different matter, taking his guns with him to kill people with is a concious decision Jason makes every individual time, Nightwing, as leader should have something to say about that. As does everyone else on the team that doesn't consider lethal force as part of the Ttans mission statement.

Having Red Hood on the team and not hold him up to same rules he holds himself too would be a massive detriment to Nightwing's character, joining Nightwing's team and following his rules would be massive detriment to Red Hood's character. I don't see how this would serve either of them really.

If you want to see what a comic Titans with Jason on the team is like, read the digital comic Titans: Titans Together.

[Rakiduam]

Yeah. I mean that's why it would be an interesting dynamic for a team. It's basically Cyclops and Wolverine, or the younger version of Superman and Batman. You've got the boy scout and the rebel. It's a great dynamic. You can get any story contrivance to justify it.

Edit -- Plus I mean they're "brothers" by having the same ninja mentor. I think Dick & Jason would be like the Bat version of Leonardo and Raphael in TMNT

Cyclops and Wolverine and the younger version of Superman and Batman are different dynamics. "The boy scout and the rebel" is a very reductive dynamic anyway, and this kind of typecast is one of the many reasons why they shouldn't be around each other, much less in the same team where they would apport same basic skills.

[Twice-named]

I don't think anyone else in the comics has been resurrected by the pit since jason

Kate Kane was resurrected in the pit in Morrison’s Batman & Robin.

[gregpersons]

Cyclops and Wolverine and the younger version of Superman and Batman are different dynamics. "The boy scout and the rebel" is a very reductive dynamic anyway, and this kind of typecast is one of the many reasons why they shouldn't be around each other, much less in the same team where they would apport same basic skills.

I'm speaking from the perspective of a writer. All characters are based in archetypes because all stories are following the same structure, especially in genre stories. The conversation in the last page or so is getting a bit hung up on the fictional biographies as justification for why something "can't" happen, which is extremely pointless, because anything can happen. Especially for fictional characters, and characters work best when they have their traits contrasted with another. This is why Batman vs Joker is interesting, why Damian is more interesting with Dick Grayson, and why Nightwing & Red Hood would make the great core of a team -- precisely because they are opposites.

[gregpersons]

Well, it's pretty much the same, but shorted. I would add feelings of betrayal and manipulatio to the summary, but, yeah. Quite traumatic however you choose to tell the story. And a reason for him to choose his choices as a vigilante.

I still want the mysterious resurrection witn the coffin scene. I'm not sorry. It's pretty intense and traumatic and baddass and B movieish and I love it. Anyone gets to be resurrected by the pit nowadays. So boring.

I like how his origin has been revised so far in "The Adventures Continue" and I'm curious to see how his "resurrection" plays out there, especially since that continuity already has a Robin being tortured by Joker and turned against Batman in ROTJ.

[Godlike13]

Bear in mind, I'm just talking about Jason's solo book in the direct market. If I remember right, Red Hood sells somewhere around 20K. That's not great; the book is a critical darling everyone loves but it doesn't sell well. Jason will stick around of course, but I'm guessing it'll be in someone else's title or in a team. Maybe they'll tweak the Outlaws into more of a team title so some C-listers have a home (propped up with bigger names of course), maybe Jason will join the Squad, or hang out in 'Tec or a Batfam book, who knows? But the odds of the Red Hood book surviving in the direct market, unchanged from its current design, seem low to me; DC is downsizing so why keep a title that doesn't sell well? At best they'll change the way they handle the title, at worst they'll cancel it. Jason will still appear somewhere regardless.

In Jason's case, while he'll stick around the direct market in some fashion but probably not as a solo star, I think he's got really good odds of a Red Hood digital series or OGN. People do love the character and his book has had great reviews, and in those other formats he might easily find the sales success he's missed in the direct market. It's not that DC will stop using or pushing him, and more that they'll do it in formats other than the direct market where he has better odds of selling well.

And if the current Red Hood book sells better than I'm thinking it does, that obviously increases the odds of surviving the culling.

And the same applies to the others; many of the Bats will find a book in the direct market, but as part of a team or as a supporting cast member; they'll still appear in the direct market to some degree but probably not headline any solo's. But in other formats, they could easily get projects.

Keep in mind; losing a direct market book does not equate to DC abandoning the characters. They're narrowing their direct market focus down to their biggest stars and best books, but they're also increasing their efforts in digital and (presumably) OGN's, so the company and their IP's are less dependent on the small, broken direct market. So if the Red Hood title is cancelled and Jason gets stuck as a secondary character somewhere, that's not a big deal because he'll almost certainly get a OGN or digital series. Same with the rest; Kate might only appear as an occasional guest star in the direct market or something, but could get effort and focus in other formats with her own digital books or bookstore trades.

In the direct market Red Hood's book existed to facilitate Lobdell. It wasn't a critical darling, it just lost most of its general audience after two panned relaunches and had very low expectations, and even 20k became a struggle. Its continual existence was already a bit perplexing as it is. Outside of comics Jason isn't used as Outlaws use him. I think he'll still be around but if it does comes to bare minimum it'll be like how he is used in other media, in the Under the Red Hood and Arkham Knight like role to challenge Batman or others.

[Godlike13]

I'm speaking from the perspective of a writer. All characters are based in archetypes because all stories are following the same structure, especially in genre stories. The conversation in the last page or so is getting a bit hung up on the fictional biographies as justification for why something "can't" happen, which is extremely pointless, because anything can happen. Especially for fictional characters, and characters work best when they have their traits contrasted with another. This is why Batman vs Joker is interesting, why Damian is more interesting with Dick Grayson, and why Nightwing & Red Hood would make the great core of a team -- precisely because they are opposites.

Nightwing & Red Hood are only opposites though because of what they have them do. Put Jason on the Titans, have him stop hunting bad guys, and they stop being opposite of each other. As characters they have quite a bit of overlap as Dick was the archtype Jason was originally created from.

[Ascended]

In the direct market Red Hood's book existed to facilitate Lobdell. It wasn't a critical darling, it just lost most of its general audience after two panned relaunches and had very low expectations, and even 20k became a struggle. Its continual existence was already a bit perplexing as it is. Outside of comics Jason isn't used as Outlaws use him. I think he'll still be around but if it does comes to bare minimum it'll be like how he is used in other media, in the Under the Red Hood and Arkham Knight like role to challenge Batman or others.

I thought it had fairly positive reviews, after the initial disaster of the New52? Well, if I'm wrong then I'm wrong and Jason's odds of sticking around after the culling in a solo title are that much lower. I'm sure he'll still be used in the direct market though, he's a quality character with a decent fanbase. And I have no doubt he'll get some use in digital, he'd probably do better there than in the regular market.

[Rakiduam]

I'm speaking from the perspective of a writer. All characters are based in archetypes because all stories are following the same structure, especially in genre stories. The conversation in the last page or so is getting a bit hung up on the fictional biographies as justification for why something "can't" happen, which is extremely pointless, because anything can happen. Especially for fictional characters, and characters work best when they have their traits contrasted with another. This is why Batman vs Joker is interesting, why Damian is more interesting with Dick Grayson, and why Nightwing & Red Hood would make the great core of a team -- precisely because they are opposites.

It's not that it "can't happen" is that it shouldn't happen. They don't have a fun or good dynamic, is not even an opposite dynamic, as a lot of Jason's path Dick walked it before, and they both are supposed to have avanced beyond a point of antagonism by now. Keep them as opposites for plot sake and we end with a loop where someone as to be an jerk every now and then, for that we already have Batman and his relationship with the family.

I think anything could happend, I don't think any character is safe going on, and the direction DC could take now probably is going to have more to do with the best movie pitch that any comic history, but of all the possibilities in this and other threads this sounds like the most dull. There is a reason why The X-Men moved away from a Cyclop/Wolverine dynamic more than a decade ago.

[Godlike13]

I thought it had fairly positive reviews, after the initial disaster of the New52? Well, if I'm wrong then I'm wrong and Jason's odds of sticking around after the culling in a solo title are that much lower. I'm sure he'll still be used in the direct market though, he's a quality character with a decent fanbase. And I have no doubt he'll get some use in digital, he'd probably do better there than in the regular market.

It was getting more positive reviews from the people that were still around to be reading it, but this wasn’t Eisner contender or true critical acclaim. The audience was filtered down and expectations set very low.

[Zaresh]

I don't think anyone else in the comics has been resurrected by the pit since jason

Cass has, I think? And Oliver Queen too, I think. Then in a roundabout way, it helped Damian in his way back. And there's Ra's using it, then Talia used it too, I think, and more people in the league. Shiva, maybe? I mean... it's a thing people first think now when they think about bringing back someone. Not much fashionable anymore, and definitely not mysterious enough for me by now.

Also, Jason wasn't ressurrected by the pit. Well, he was, but just in the movie.

Edit: for what is worth, last month RHATO did fairly well in Comixology. It sells decently in a digital format. Even if those aren't the figures of an issue in paper.

[gregpersons]

It's not that it "can't happen" is that it shouldn't happen. They don't have a fun or good dynamic, is not even an opposite dynamic, as a lot of Jason's path Dick walked it before, and they both are supposed to have avanced beyond a point of antagonism by now. Keep them as opposites for plot sake and we end with a loop where someone as to be an jerk every now and then, for that we already have Batman and his relationship with the family.

I think anything could happend, I don't think any character is safe going on, and the direction DC could take now probably is going to have more to do with the best movie pitch that any comic history, but of all the possibilities in this and other threads this sounds like the most dull. There is a reason why The X-Men moved away from a Cyclop/Wolverine dynamic more than a decade ago.

Have they moved away from Cyclops/Wolverine? I thought they re-centered that dynamic again recently in some kind of complicated love triangle scenario. But I don't know, I haven't actually read the X books since the 90s and mostly just check-in on the characters when there's a news story about it.

And I hear you too. I know what you're saying of not wanting the characters to "regress" and keep telling the same stories. Dick & Jason have rarely been teamed together. It's rare to have two Robins on the same time in general... happened a few times with Dick + Tim, Dick + Damian, but not often and not for long. Only a few stories, including the live-action DCU Titans show, have really bothered trying to explore Dick & Jason together as teammates and how that would affect a team. And if you've watched the Titans show, you can see how much fun it is. Given that Dick is always going to be "bright and talented" and Jason is always going to be "grim and ruthless" -- they're always going to clash like Dick & Damian -- but instead of being mentor/student, they'd be equals.

Stories need conflict between characters. I dunno how granular to get here. This is a reliable dynamic and it's in a bazillion more stories than the ones I've mentioned. To me, it's like, there's a lot of redundancy in the "Robin" IP and it's tricky to look at it and try to find the most "value" and cut down on confusion/redundancy as much as possible.

There's no one perfect answer! But I am in favor of whichever solution allows the most amount of characters to co-exist... and a bunch of fans have already come up with the idea, because IMO it's a good one, that it would be cooler to group the Robins and Batgirls together, to have them play off of each other, which also helps to differentiate them.

[Sergard]

I know that people are worried that their favorite characters will disappear in limbo - and currently, there isn't a lot of comfort to give because there isn't a lot of information. We all have to wait and see how things are going to turn out.

Batgirl and Outsiders already had their final issues announced in the last solicitations. Nightwing, Red Hood and Batman Beyond are going to follow, it's only a matter of time. Teen Titans probably too. I don't know how DC is going to handle Young Justice as part of the Wonder Comics line.

But these are all changes that were known/expected before the layoffs were announced. In the meanwhile, a Punchline oneshot and The Other History of the DC Universe have just been announced (and the end of the Aquaman run). So at the moment, business is proceeding as usual and will so for the next few months.

But the bat-franchise is the safest franchise a character can be in. Not just because of Bruce Wayne/Batman but because of a lot of other valuable IPs. And judging by current - sparse - information that's more people talking and interpreting than actual hard facts about DC's future as a comic publisher, as far as I can see it, IPs are what the higher-ups are the most interested in.

And to be honest, a push for the international market and the reduction of monthly floppies in favor of other formats that are easier accessible for people sounds like a very good thing.