DC Speculation -- how will layoffs affect the Bat books?

[DurararaFTW]

I'm speaking from the perspective of a writer. All characters are based in archetypes because all stories are following the same structure, especially in genre stories. The conversation in the last page or so is getting a bit hung up on the fictional biographies as justification for why something "can't" happen, which is extremely pointless, because anything can happen. Especially for fictional characters, and characters work best when they have their traits contrasted with another. This is why Batman vs Joker is interesting, why Damian is more interesting with Dick Grayson, and why Nightwing & Red Hood would make the great core of a team -- precisely because they are opposites.

Have they moved away from Cyclops/Wolverine? I thought they re-centered that dynamic again recently in some kind of complicated love triangle scenario. But I don't know, I haven't actually read the X books since the 90s and mostly just check-in on the characters when there's a news story about it.

And I hear you too. I know what you're saying of not wanting the characters to "regress" and keep telling the same stories. Dick & Jason have rarely been teamed together. It's rare to have two Robins on the same time in general... happened a few times with Dick + Tim, Dick + Damian, but not often and not for long. Only a few stories, including the live-action DCU Titans show, have really bothered trying to explore Dick & Jason together as teammates and how that would affect a team. And if you've watched the Titans show, you can see how much fun it is. Given that Dick is always going to be "bright and talented" and Jason is always going to be "grim and ruthless" -- they're always going to clash like Dick & Damian -- but instead of being mentor/student, they'd be equals.

Stories need conflict between characters. I dunno how granular to get here. This is a reliable dynamic and it's in a bazillion more stories than the ones I've mentioned. To me, it's like, there's a lot of redundancy in the "Robin" IP and it's tricky to look at it and try to find the most "value" and cut down on confusion/redundancy as much as possible.

There's no one perfect answer! But I am in favor of whichever solution allows the most amount of characters to co-exist... and a bunch of fans have already come up with the idea, because IMO it's a good one, that it would be cooler to group the Robins and Batgirls together, to have them play off of each other, which also helps to differentiate them.

I'm not saying it can't happen. Just think it shouldn't. You think they'd be clashing all the time, why would Jason agree to be on a team under Dick's leadership if he disagrees with everything he stands for and every way he deals with a problem. Why is Nightwing letting him be on the Titans if Red Hood keeps doing stuff he disagrees with and is unwilling to change. It's different with Damian or Ravager or Jason in the tv series, there they are younger people that Dick is taking under his wing, to teach and help them. As equal adult heros, I don't think that works.

Now on a Gotham Knights, Batman Eternal or Batman Inc. book it's a different story. Jason is an adult but Bruce was his fatherfigure, he gave him a home in Wayne Manor, is responsible for his induction into crimefighting and what happened to him and Jason generally grew up in Gotham to begin with. Batman might not like his methods but that doesn't mean he gets to take Jason home and family away from him. This puts Red Hood in proximity with Batman and Nightwing who disagree with his means of fighting bad guys. That all makes sense. Thus they clash. Titans is different, it's Nightwing's team, why would he want Red Hood on it. There's no leadership above Nightwing in the Titans that gets to tell him he has to do this, like Professor X for Cyclops or Dick himself for Tim/Cassie in Damian/Rose's case. Red Hood can only be on a Titans team with Nightwing, by Nightwing's grace, so their disagreements can't be that significant.

[Zaresh]

Just want to point out, Jason doesn't disagree with everything Dick, Bruce or Tim stand for. He disagrees in how to deal with certain criminals. That's not everything, at all.

[gregpersons]

I'm not saying it can't happen. Just think it shouldn't. You think they'd be clashing all the time, why would Jason agree to be on a team under Dick's leadership if he disagrees with everything he stands for and every way he deals with a problem. Why is Nightwing letting him be on the Titans if Red Hood keeps doing stuff he disagrees with and is unwilling to change. It's different with Damian or Ravager or Jason in the tv series, there they are younger people that Dick is taking under his wing, to teach and help them. As equal adult heros, I don't think that works.

Now on a Gotham Knights, Batman Eternal or Batman Inc. book it's a different story. Jason is an adult but Bruce was his fatherfigure, he gave him a home in Wayne Manor, is responsible for his induction into crimefighting and what happened to him and Jason generally grew up in Gotham to begin with. Batman might not like his methods but that doesn't mean he gets to take Jason home and family away from him. This puts Red Hood in proximity with Batman and Nightwing who disagree with his means of fighting bad guys. That all makes sense. Thus they clash. Titans is different, it's Nightwing's team, why would he want Red Hood on it. There's no leadership above Nightwing in the Titans that gets to tell him he has to do this, like Professor X for Cyclops or Dick himself for Tim/Cassie in Damian/Rose's case. Red Hood can only be on a Titans team with Nightwing, by Nightwing's grace, so their disagreements can't be that significant.

That's fun! And that's what I mean -- it only needs a bit of an explanation to justify it, same as Grayson becoming a spy. No great reason other than a pretty decent answer to "what do we do with this extra character?" And then in just a couple of sentences you gave us a nice outline of how it might work. I'd read it!

Another pitch -- I think the way I would do it is adapt the good ideas from the Titans DCU show and streamline it. I don't want to see a bunch of bickering between them for drama sake, I want it for comedy -- like a buddy cop team -- an ongoing source of tension between brothers who want to prove to each other they're better than their father figure. Tonally, I like Dick & Jason in the same way I like Dick & Damian... they need to be solidly on the same team, but not for the same reasons. Dick & Jason are interesting together because they're both new "alpha" males terrified of regressing to "beta" status. They would lock horns, but ultimately, they are brothers and they're sharing common cause. They also share common trauma, and could/should bond more over how ridiculous Bruce/Batman can be.


So let's say it's something like... In the aftermath of some major event that rocked Gotham to it's core (also known as Tuesday), Batman and his allies are once again looking to rebuild the city but their shaky trust -- naturally it was some old secret of Bruce Wayne's that set in motion the latest disaster.

Nightwing/Dick Grayson decides to leave town and reform the Titans, starting with his core friends, but also adopting new members along the way. Grayson is a bleeding heart. He can't stop himself from wanting to save everyone... it's a similar drive as his mentor, but expressed in a more nurturing way instead of so masochistically. He decides to finally prove himself as his own man by fully committing to the Titans full-time, non-stop, and any future aid provided to Batman will be with the Titans. He becomes fiercely, rebelliously committed to being a team player, as a kind of "screw you" to Batman's secrecy.

Perhaps he starts with Kor'i/Starfire, or any of the Outsiders, as his first recruitment, and as he's explaining the "big tent" approach to team building this time -- no more secrets! (but you wear a mask) from each other! -- they come across Jason Todd/Red Hood in need of help. He's dealing with fallout from the big event, on the run from somebody that isn't Deathstroke or Talon but someone like that.

Just want to point out, Jason doesn't disagree with everything Dick, Bruce or Tim stand for. He disagrees in how to deal with certain criminals. That's not everything, at all.

Yeah exactly. Jason is the bad boy, but he's still on the team.

Batman = Splinter/Prof X
Nightwing = Leonardo/Cyclops
Red Hood = Raphael/Wolverine

Except in the case of the pitch above, the two eldest brothers have moved on from their mentor to do things differently (but even when he's not there, he's still a presence).

[gregpersons]

I know that people are worried that their favorite characters will disappear in limbo - and currently, there isn't a lot of comfort to give because there isn't a lot of information. We all have to wait and see how things are going to turn out.

Batgirl and Outsiders already had their final issues announced in the last solicitations. Nightwing, Red Hood and Batman Beyond are going to follow, it's only a matter of time. Teen Titans probably too. I don't know how DC is going to handle Young Justice as part of the Wonder Comics line.

But these are all changes that were known/expected before the layoffs were announced. In the meanwhile, a Punchline oneshot and The Other History of the DC Universe have just been announced (and the end of the Aquaman run). So at the moment, business is proceeding as usual and will so for the next few months.

But the bat-franchise is the safest franchise a character can be in. Not just because of Bruce Wayne/Batman but because of a lot of other valuable IPs. And judging by current - sparse - information that's more people talking and interpreting than actual hard facts about DC's future as a comic publisher, as far as I can see it, IPs are what the higher-ups are the most interested in.

And to be honest, a push for the international market and the reduction of monthly floppies in favor of other formats that are easier accessible for people sounds like a very good thing.

I agree. I am optimistic the changes will be for the best. I think we will probably see an expanse of creator-driven limited series and less emphasis on never-ending monthlies. That's going to be better for the reader.

I'd happily drop 99% of the ongoing monthlies for more OGNs and mini-series like "White Knight" or "Batman Year 100"

[The tall man]

That's fun! And that's what I mean -- it only needs a bit of an explanation to justify it, same as Grayson becoming a spy. No great reason other than a pretty decent answer to "what do we do with this extra character?" And then in just a couple of sentences you gave us a nice outline of how it might work. I'd read it!

Another pitch -- I think the way I would do it is adapt the good ideas from the Titans DCU show and streamline it. I don't want to see a bunch of bickering between them for drama sake, I want it for comedy -- like a buddy cop team -- an ongoing source of tension between brothers who want to prove to each other they're better than their father figure. Tonally, I like Dick & Jason in the same way I like Dick & Damian... they need to be solidly on the same team, but not for the same reasons. Dick & Jason are interesting together because they're both new "alpha" males terrified of regressing to "beta" status. They would lock horns, but ultimately, they are brothers and they're sharing common cause. They also share common trauma, and could/should bond more over how ridiculous Bruce/Batman can be.


So let's say it's something like... In the aftermath of some major event that rocked Gotham to it's core (also known as Tuesday), Batman and his allies are once again looking to rebuild the city but their shaky trust -- naturally it was some old secret of Bruce Wayne's that set in motion the latest disaster.

Nightwing/Dick Grayson decides to leave town and reform the Titans, starting with his core friends, but also adopting new members along the way. Grayson is a bleeding heart. He can't stop himself from wanting to save everyone... it's a similar drive as his mentor, but expressed in a more nurturing way instead of so masochistically. He decides to finally prove himself as his own man by fully committing to the Titans full-time, non-stop, and any future aid provided to Batman will be with the Titans. He becomes fiercely, rebelliously committed to being a team player, as a kind of "screw you" to Batman's secrecy.

Perhaps he starts with Kor'i/Starfire, or any of the Outsiders, as his first recruitment, and as he's explaining the "big tent" approach to team building this time -- no more secrets! (but you wear a mask) from each other! -- they come across Jason Todd/Red Hood in need of help. He's dealing with fallout from the big event, on the run from somebody that isn't Deathstroke or Talon but someone like that.




Yeah exactly. Jason is the bad boy, but he's still on the team.

Batman = Splinter/Prof X
Nightwing = Leonardo/Cyclops
Red Hood = Raphael/Wolverine

Except in the case of the pitch above, the two eldest brothers have moved on from their mentor to do things differently (but even when he's not there, he's still a presence).

This pitch just sounds like a stealth hit piece on Bruce. Is the only way members of the batfamily can operate together as a cohesive team is in their opposition and rejection of Bruce? People complain that Batman is too much of a jerk but then want him written as such. I'm sure Dick and Jason can find common ground and work together beyond just their negative feelings towards Bruce.

[DurararaFTW]

Just want to point out, Jason doesn't disagree with everything Dick, Bruce or Tim stand for. He disagrees in how to deal with certain criminals. That's not everything, at all.

Jason disagreeing with how Nightwing fights crime is pretty significant point when it comes to having Red Hood as a willing teammember to Nightwing's crimefighting team. That's kinda everything that's relevant, no?

[gregpersons]

This pitch just sounds like a stealth hit piece on Bruce. Is the only way members of the batfamily can operate together as a cohesive team is in their opposition and rejection of Bruce? People complain that Batman is too much of a jerk but then want him written as such. I'm sure Dick and Jason can find common ground and work together beyond just their negative feelings towards Bruce.

Because all of the Robins are rebels, and all of them have complicated feelings toward Bruce, so it's a natural bonding agent between them. He's not necessarily a jerk even. He's just being Batman and he is mysterious. It's tough to live in that shadow.

Anyway I don't know why I am bothering. I am just repeating myself. I'm advocating for the Bat Family to be a team book, and a team concept. And that you don't need to kill characters just because there's not a clear editorial purpose for them at the moment. And you can even have Batman the individual still be the loner. All of the Family characters work well with teamwork.

It doesn't matter. Forget it, lol. Short of writing out a pitch or script, it's something that has to be shown. You can't be like "it'd be cool if Dick Grayson were a spy" on a fan board. Of course he can't be a spy, that's stupid.

[Zaresh]

Jason disagreeing with how Nightwing fights crime is pretty significant point when it comes to having Red Hood as a willing teammember to Nightwing's crimefighting team. That's kinda everything that's relevant, no?

Yes, it's important, but it's not all there is. Jason approach uses preventive killing, but all the other points? They're basically the same. It's not much different from Huntress, for example. And then you have Dick working with her as far as she follows the no killing rule.

[Konja7]

The problem is that when (ex) Robins are together, they end up reduced to certain characteristics to make it easier the contrast of characters.

It wouldn't be weird for Dick to end up as the "boy scout", while Jason as the "rebel". This would especially incovenient for Dick, since the "rebel" tend to be the cool one.

[DurararaFTW]

Yes, it's important, but it's not all there is. Jason approach uses preventive killing, but all the other points? They're basically the same. It's not much different from Huntress, for example. And then you have Dick working with her as far as she follow the no killing rule.

If you're gonna use Red Hood in a comic, you're gonna have him fire guns on panels. If you're gonna have Red Hood on a teambook, it's leader is gonna be either Red Hood himself or someone that's okay with him bringing guns as a means of dispensing with evildoers. That's not Nightwing. It's different with Huntress, who might promise to be good, no different then Roy or Ollie and proves to be lying at the end of the comic. And Huntress has never been on a team with Nightwing for longer then an issue or two, little different then a temporary teamup. I'm fine with Nightwing/Red Hood team up that are temporary in nature. If Jason is gonna be on a team under Nightwing's command permanently, it stands to reason that he'd be asked to leave his approach to crime fighting behind permanently as well. Why would Red Hood do this?

[Rise]

And that's the real issue here. Everyone is just concerned about their muh favourite and god forbid other character looks cooler than them for one page, but only few care about simply reading a fun story.

[Light of Justice]

The problem is that when (ex) Robins are together, they end up reduced to certain characteristics to make it easier the contrast of characters.

It wouldn't be weird for Dick to end up as the "boy scout", while Jason as the "rebel". This would especially incovenient for Dick, since the "rebel" tend to be the cool one.

Isn't that the opposite? From experience, whenever ex-Robins on an issue together, Jason's character gets damaged the most. Either he was overly hostile, minor character that occasionally throws sarcastic comments, or became comedic relief. Usually on Robins team-up, Dick will be on main spotlight because he will be their leader, like on Batman&Robin Eternal and Robin War. Even on Pennyworth RIP, that goddamn Ric got better treatment than Jason.

[Zaresh]

I just want a fun, well planed story, with characters who develop and behave as they should, following an arc, and a nice mystery or a nice adventure, or a nice conflict to resolve in the story itself. I like character driven stories, and adventure/action/mystery stories. And you can have both in a team book which is balanced. TV shows have been doing it for a while. Sci Fi shows for example: sure, you have your Kirk/Spook/McCoy triad with either the Kirk-role or the Spook as the clear lead, but you also have stuff like Babylon 5, where almost every lead have a well balanced time and importance.

[Konja7]

Isn't that the opposite? From experience, whenever ex-Robins on an issue together, Jason's character gets damaged the most. Either he was overly hostile, minor character that occasionally throws sarcastic comments, or became comedic relief. Usually on Robins team-up, Dick will be on main spotlight because he will be their leader, like on Batman&Robin Eternal and Robin War. Even on Pennyworth RIP, that goddamn Ric got better treatment than Jason.

It depends on the writers, since they also have favorites. However, the point is they are reduced to certain characteristics in Robins team-up.

Although I say that being the "overly hostile" or "rebel" is likely more popular than the "boy scout" or "generic guy".


PS: I don't think many Dick fans like Dick portrayal in Batman&Robin Eternal.

[Digifiend]

I know that people are worried that their favorite characters will disappear in limbo - and currently, there isn't a lot of comfort to give because there isn't a lot of information. We all have to wait and see how things are going to turn out.

Batgirl and Outsiders already had their final issues announced in the last solicitations. Nightwing, Red Hood and Batman Beyond are going to follow, it's only a matter of time. Teen Titans probably too. I don't know how DC is going to handle Young Justice as part of the Wonder Comics line.

But these are all changes that were known/expected before the layoffs were announced. In the meanwhile, a Punchline oneshot and The Other History of the DC Universe have just been announced (and the end of the Aquaman run). So at the moment, business is proceeding as usual and will so for the next few months.

But the bat-franchise is the safest franchise a character can be in. Not just because of Bruce Wayne/Batman but because of a lot of other valuable IPs. And judging by current - sparse - information that's more people talking and interpreting than actual hard facts about DC's future as a comic publisher, as far as I can see it, IPs are what the higher-ups are the most interested in.

And to be honest, a push for the international market and the reduction of monthly floppies in favor of other formats that are easier accessible for people sounds like a very good thing.

The cover for Young Justice 20 shows the whole cast... that looks like a final issue too. We'll know when the solicits come out in two and a half hours.