DC Speculation -- how will layoffs affect the Bat books?

[prepmaster]

Bruce main point is to make sure that what he suffered doesn't happen to everyone else. I'm not sure if that means that he has to be a father figure to anybody, but that is his mission stament.

Suffering from what? The pain of losing one's parents. The pain was so great that it motivates him to become a crime fighter to protect the lives of others instead of just going only after the few criminals that were responsible for his parents' death. Whether he would feel like being a father to orphans or not doesn't matter, as a character Bruce has soft spot for orphans he comes across. I don't think the guy has gotten over such pain of losing his parents, which is why he is so motivated to fight crime.

[Konja7]

But on some adaptation movie Son of Batman concept is not even needed nor mentioned. For example on Batman vs TMNT even with Ra's as main villain, there's no mention that Damian is related by blood with Batman or Ra's, non-comic fans viewer only know that when Damian called Bruce 'father'. Or on Batman Unlimited: Mech vs. Mutants, the only thing that told us the Robin is Damian is his nightmare about Ra's. So as Damian fans who loves him because of his personality and not because 'Son of Batman' status, I don't understand why they want to use Damian if they will removed his personality and rarely mentioning about his relation with Batman. Why not use Tim? Damian can be used on particular Son of Batman movie just like Jason is only used on UTRH storyline.

Grant Morrison originally want to kill Damian on his first four issue (with torpedo), but then other writers want to use him like on Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul, and BfTC. Then Morrison continued to use him, and in the end planned to kill him, with DC and Synder prepared Duke as replacement, but WB against it. Priest wanted to make him permanent Deathstroke's son if allowed. Now they tries to make him villain, who knows, after Damian's saga on animated movies were ended, maybe now DC will be able to get rid of Damian for real.

*I am on acceptance stage with self-pain post*

I think Damian will mantain Robin mantle. Honestly, I don't think DC has much interest in Tim as Robin again.

Detective Comics #1027 has varíant covers where Batman appears along other characters. Damian appears in one of the varíant covers, Tim didn't.

In Joker War, Tim uses the Robin suit, but he seems to still use the Drake name (according to Nightwing #73).


PS: What is the interview where is said that Duke would be Robin, but WB wants Damian? I heard that in this forum, but I don't see the source.

[Morgoth]

Now they tries to make him villain, who knows, after Damian's saga on animated movies were ended, maybe now DC will be able to get rid of Damian for real.

They will never completely get rid of any of the Robins, it's obvious. Each of them has their own fanbase, each of them belongs to Batman, they are not idiots after all. Even in the case of Damian's current storyline, well, it is clear that this will not lead to any villainy and he will still be pulled out into the light, this is a child in the end. He is now one of the main characters of one of their best-selling titles at the moment, it does not seem that he is hated so much and they're dreaming of how to get rid of him.

[J. D. Guy]

Dude, changing your world for them is what happened if you have a kid. If they don't want to do that, if they want things to stay the way they are then yeah, they shouldn't add him, but they did, and they're keeping him. So they need to make the stories make sense. Adjust to the change. Don't just ignore things and expect people to not react.

This post deserves emphasizing.

[J. D. Guy]

But on some adaptation movie Son of Batman concept is not even needed nor mentioned. For example on Batman vs TMNT even with Ra's as main villain, there's no mention that Damian is related by blood with Batman or Ra's, non-comic fans viewer only know that when Damian called Bruce 'father'. Or on Batman Unlimited: Mech vs. Mutants, the only thing that told us the Robin is Damian is his nightmare about Ra's. So as Damian fans who loves him because of his personality and not because 'Son of Batman' status, I don't understand why they want to use Damian if they will removed his personality and rarely mentioning about his relation with Batman. Why not use Tim? Damian can be used on particular Son of Batman movie just like Jason is only used on UTRH storyline.

Because writing a character into too much of a niche wherein it becomes discouraged to use that character outside that niche is extremely limiting creatively. It means that only the same beats are ever used and the character can never grow, evolve and become more nuanced beyond that initial niche.

Jason Todd/Red Hood is an example of how ultimately limiting that mindset can be. Lobdell showed how deep Jason could be if he was allowed in spaces outside and beyond his time Under the Red Hood. Other writers have shown just how shallow their takes of Jason are when they write him as if he was still just fresh off from UtRH.

[J. D. Guy]

Functionally there isn't one, mentally it comes down to the people involved and how they see their dynamics.

There's also an interplay with societal and cultural norms, especially including outdated and harmful ones, and how they play a role in the perceptions and beliefs of the people involved.

[Konja7]

Because writing a character into too much of a niche wherein it becomes discouraged to use that character outside that niche is extremely limiting creatively. It means that only the same beats are ever used and the character can never grow, evolve and become more nuanced beyond that initial niche.

Jason Todd/Red Hood is an example of how ultimately limiting that mindset can be. Lobdell showed how deep Jason could be if he was allowed in spaces outside and beyond his time Under the Red Hood. Other writers have shown just how shallow their takes of Jason are when they write him as if he was still just fresh off from UtRH.

This is true. It isn't good for Jason that WB is just interested in UTRH storyline for him.

That means Jason will only appear as Robin to die and resurrect.

If they want a regular Robin, they will choose Dick, Damian or even Tim before Jason.

[Konja7]

There's also an interplay with societal and cultural norms, especially including outdated and harmful ones, and how they play a role in the perceptions and beliefs of the people involved.

I would say the age difference is another factor.

If Bruce become Dick's guardián when he was 13 or older, it is more difficult they will have a father-son relationship (it also depends on the Bruce's age).

[Ascended]

I do however question why some writers only ever explore the family dynamic in a negative way. Bruce is a hero. He shouldn't be beating his kids and crap. That is on the writers not the fans.

Thank you!

Don't bitch at fans of Dick or Babs or Damian or whoever else because DC is determined to write Bruce as a psychotic bastard who is borderline abusive on his good days.

Like I said at the beginning of this conversation, most of us Bat-legacy fans are *also* fans of Batman. But instead of turning a blind eye to all the stupid sh*t DC pulls with the character, we call them out on it.

I'm a bigger fan of Nightwing than I am of Batman but that doesn't mean I don't like Batman. I do. What I don't like is how DC writes Bruce as this intolerant douchebag who seemingly considers the kids he decided to raise as little more than soldiers, who acts like a complete asshat to his family, friends, and co-workers, and then gets to stomp all over every other character in the DCU because he sells more comics.

Nobody here wants Superman to fly into Gotham, kick Bruce out of the Cave, derail Bruce's story, and fix all of Gotham's problems while Bruce talks about how golly keen Superman is and how nobody else could do what he does and how Bruce is so lucky Superman showed up to save the day. Nobody wants to see Bruce get disrespected like that or written like such a doormat. But this is what happens to every other character in the DCU, and the Bat legacies more than anyone else. That's not Bruce's fault because Bruce isn't real, but it's annoying as f*ck if you happen to be a fan of anybody else.

Batman used to be a fantastic character full of pathos, who fought through his own pain to be not only a better man, but to inspire others to be better. He was the kind of guy you could imagine a little kid looking up to and feeling safe with. Now even his own kids aren't safe with him. Gee, I wonder why people have such a problem with how DC handles Bruce these days?

If DC wanted Bruce to be this broody, angst-filled shell of a person ripped straight from Frank Millar's wet dreams, they shouldn't keep adding kids to his household. Or, alternatively, they could start writing Bruce as a person again, and less like a high schooler's idea of what "cool" looks like. Bronze Age Batman was best Batman.

[J. D. Guy]

I would say the age difference is another factor.

If Bruce become Dick's guardián when he was 13 or older, it is more difficult they will have a father-son relationship (it also depends on the Bruce's age).

Following general beliefs and stereotypes, then probably. That likely falls under the outdated and harmful norms. It's where the whole passing over teens and older adolescents for adoption happens.

[Konja7]

Thank you!

Don't bitch at fans of Dick or Babs or Damian or whoever else because DC is determined to write Bruce as a psychotic bastard who is borderline abusive on his good days.

Like I said at the beginning of this conversation, most of us Bat-legacy fans are *also* fans of Batman. But instead of turning a blind eye to all the stupid sh*t DC pulls with the character, we call them out on it.

I'm a bigger fan of Nightwing than I am of Batman but that doesn't mean I don't like Batman. I do. What I don't like is how DC writes Bruce as this intolerant douchebag who seemingly considers the kids he decided to raise as little more than soldiers, who acts like a complete asshat to his family, friends, and co-workers, and then gets to stomp all over every other character in the DCU because he sells more comics.

Nobody here wants Superman to fly into Gotham, kick Bruce out of the Cave, derail Bruce's story, and fix all of Gotham's problems while Bruce talks about how golly keen Superman is and how nobody else could do what he does and how Bruce is so lucky Superman showed up to save the day. Nobody wants to see Bruce get disrespected like that or written like such a doormat. But this is what happens to every other character in the DCU, and the Bat legacies more than anyone else. That's not Bruce's fault because Bruce isn't real, but it's annoying as f*ck if you happen to be a fan of anybody else.

Batman used to be a fantastic character full of pathos, who fought through his own pain to be not only a better man, but to inspire others to be better. He was the kind of guy you could imagine a little kid looking up to and feeling safe with. Now even his own kids aren't safe with him. Gee, I wonder why people have such a problem with how DC handles Bruce these days?

If DC wanted Bruce to be this broody, angst-filled shell of a person ripped straight from Frank Millar's wet dreams, they shouldn't keep adding kids to his household. Or, alternatively, they could start writing Bruce as a person again, and less like a high schooler's idea of what "cool" looks like. Bronze Age Batman was best Batman.

To be fair, Batman fans in this forum bitch fans of Dick or Babs or Damian or whoever else, because many of these fans don't complaint only about DC, they complaint a lot about Batman.

Sometimes they have wanted Bruce to grow old and retire so that Dick is allowed to grow.

So both sides don't seem to direct their anger enough at the real culprit.

[Jcady59]

Thank you!

Don't bitch at fans of Dick or Babs or Damian or whoever else because DC is determined to write Bruce as a psychotic bastard who is borderline abusive on his good days.

Like I said at the beginning of this conversation, most of us Bat-legacy fans are *also* fans of Batman. But instead of turning a blind eye to all the stupid sh*t DC pulls with the character, we call them out on it.

I'm a bigger fan of Nightwing than I am of Batman but that doesn't mean I don't like Batman. I do. What I don't like is how DC writes Bruce as this intolerant douchebag who seemingly considers the kids he decided to raise as little more than soldiers, who acts like a complete asshat to his family, friends, and co-workers, and then gets to stomp all over every other character in the DCU because he sells more comics.

Nobody here wants Superman to fly into Gotham, kick Bruce out of the Cave, derail Bruce's story, and fix all of Gotham's problems while Bruce talks about how golly keen Superman is and how nobody else could do what he does and how Bruce is so lucky Superman showed up to save the day. Nobody wants to see Bruce get disrespected like that or written like such a doormat. But this is what happens to every other character in the DCU, and the Bat legacies more than anyone else. That's not Bruce's fault because Bruce isn't real, but it's annoying as f*ck if you happen to be a fan of anybody else.

Batman used to be a fantastic character full of pathos, who fought through his own pain to be not only a better man, but to inspire others to be better. He was the kind of guy you could imagine a little kid looking up to and feeling safe with. Now even his own kids aren't safe with him. Gee, I wonder why people have such a problem with how DC handles Bruce these days?

If DC wanted Bruce to be this broody, angst-filled shell of a person ripped straight from Frank Millar's wet dreams, they shouldn't keep adding kids to his household. Or, alternatively, they could start writing Bruce as a person again, and less like a high schooler's idea of what "cool" looks like. Bronze Age Batman was best Batman.

Pushing back against the idea and the continued perpetration that Bruce is this horrible abusive monster and not someone that has been mischaracterized and character assassinated for years for the sake other characters isn’t bitching at Dick and Barbra fans it’s pointing out the ridiculous double standard this fan base has with Bruce.

[Rise]

The problem is that you think Bruce get written as jerk to make someone else looks better which isn't true.

Batman manipulating Jason and taking him to the place where he died (which happened in Batman book) wasn't done to make Jason looks better, it was done for the sake of drama. Batman beating the heck out of Jason over Penguin wasn't done to make the latter looks better either (he looked actually pretty bad with how he just stood there and took it), it was also for drama.

Writers don't do it to make the batfamily looks better, they do it for their cheap drama and neither the Batman fans nor Batfamily fans are happy about this.

[The True Detective]

The problem is that you think Bruce get written as jerk to make someone else looks better which isn't true.

Batman manipulating Jason and taking him to the place where he died (which happened in Batman book) wasn't done to make Jason looks better, it was done for the sake of drama. Batman beating the heck out of Jason over Penguin wasn't done to make the latter looks better either (he looked actually pretty bad with how he just stood there and took it), it was also for drama.

Writers don't do it to make the batfamily looks better, they do it for their cheap drama and neither the Batman fans nor Batfamily fans are happy about this.

Eh, to me Bruce being a jerk to the Batfamily screams of pandering towards Batfam fans. Most writers are no doubt aware of the massive hate the fan base has towards Bruce and make him a dick on purpose so the Batfamily members look more sympathetic. They never come out looking bad when he's being a dick to them, he's the only one who comes out of those encounters worse for wear.

It's like they use him as the big bad to galvanize the Batfamily fans, they all have an obstacle to overcome and persevere against.

And it's ironic to hear how Bruce is supposedly written "like a high schooler's idea of what cool looks like" when some of the Batfamily are written in ways that scream "how do you do fellow kids, aren't these guys hip!" We gonna act like Jason Todd isn't every Edgelord teenage boy's angsty fantasy come true? Guns? Check. Willing to kill? Check. Tragic backstory? Check. Parental figure he doesn't get along with? Check. He ticks all the boxes a kid who "isn't going through a phase mom!" would love.

And then there's Dick, hey kids, this guy's younger and cooler than Bruce, EVERYBODY looooves him, he's the bestest leader ever, OMG look at his ass tee-hee, such a ladies man, super cool flipz and quipz, etc. I love him but yeah, it's pretty heavy handed.

Like, c'mon Bruce is probably the Batfamily they try the least to make seem cool.

[Jcady59]

The problem is that you think Bruce get written as jerk to make someone else looks better which isn't true.

Batman manipulating Jason and taking him to the place where he died (which happened in Batman book) wasn't done to make Jason looks better, it was done for the sake of drama. Batman beating the heck out of Jason over Penguin wasn't done to make the latter looks better either (he looked actually pretty bad with how he just stood there and took it), it was also for drama.


Writers don't do it to make the batfamily looks better, they do it for their cheap drama and neither the Batman fans nor Batfamily fans are happy about this.

That’s is what I’m talking about though, sure I could have expressed it better( but I’m on my phone ), that Bruce is being mischaracterized in ways that go against how he has been written for most of his history and how he should be written for the benefit of an outside force and not his own, Drama or for another character it doesn’t make a difference to me it’s still bad writing.

Then people need to call out DC more often because I could only remember like 1 time in the last few years that there was a unanimous pushback against the shitty Writing here. More often than not most people are willing to jump on the f*uck Bruce band wagon.