DC Speculation -- how will layoffs affect the Bat books?

[Ascended]

Sounds like you should be bitching more about DC and the writers than Bruce.

Of course this is on editorial and the writers. Batman's not real and has no agency of his own. Bruce doesn't decide to be an a-hole to everyone, the writers decide that.

But it would take a lot more time to type all that out in every post about the subject. I'm pretty sure it's assumed that when any of us complain about a character, it's not the character we complain about but the way DC handles them. The only exception I can think of is when we discuss a character's basic, fundamental concept; something like Cyborg falling into the "emasculated black man" troupe or something.

However, modern Batman isn't so bad with Dick.

In the case of Dick, his fans are more angry because Dick is held down due to Batman. That probably wouldn't change even if Bruce's treatment to the Bat-family is better.

Yeah, generally speaking I do think things are better with the family now than they were ten, fifteen years ago. Which doesn't mean things are good, but at least there's been some improvement. Did I not say that before? I thought I did?

And yeah, I'd take Bruce being a dick to the family a lot better (and I think a lot of fans would) if the family actually got treated decently by DC instead of being sacrificed at the Bat alter for the sake of Bruce's angst all the time. It's not *just* the dysfunctional family drama it's also the slap in the face insulting way the legacies often get treated on top of the dysfunctional family drama.

I know that, for people who are primarily Batman fans, people complaining about the legacies and the kids and this whole mess is annoying. But just like it's not Bruce's fault that DC writes him like a douche-waffle, it's not our fault that DC treats the legacies like roadkill.

[Godlike13]

Bruce being a-hole isn’t for him.

[The tall man]

The best possible thing that could be done is to dissolve the batfamily, just put an end to it. Family fans seem to think that they get the short end and it sure as hell doesn't do anything positive for Batman. Clean break is what's needed, let Batman do his own thing free from the family, and let the family go off on their own to do their own thing; free of Batman's influence. Batman is the central figure of the bat franchise/mythos, it's not on him to change for the sake of the family. He doesn't exist to serve them nor is he dependent on them. He will be fine without any of them. They on the other hand benefit greatly from being associated with him, having a connection to the bat symbol, being seen as a son of his; particularly in Damian's case. Yet somehow Batman is always portrayed as the bad guy, he's the jerk, the a-hole, the bad father and whatever else people want to throw at him. But despite all that people still complain if the family is not present in his stories. Some are calling for Damian to walk away from Bruce, but where exactly would/will Damian be without Bruce? Would anyone even care about Damian if he wasn't known as the "Son of Batman". Some want it both ways, to criticize and condemn Batman while wanting the family to benefit from his popularity and the bat brand.

[Caivu]

As someone who only saw the previews, Coryana is a pirate paradise for lounging lesbians. Is that why it's boring? ^^

(No, Grammarly, I don't want to correct it to Cortana!)

I didn't think it was boring at all, but it also was never her base of operations (nor is Monster Town, for that matter).

[Badou]

Ehh, if Dick had that writer for 9 years i think they would have a lot to complain about. Just 6 months with that writer gave us Ric as we know it. Though after 9 years of him Nightwing fans might just be completely defeated. But it don't think Dick fans actually complain about Bruce much, its more about how Dick is used as fodder for Bruce and how that effects his directions.

I'm no fan of Lobdell, but Lobdell's 9 year run on Red Hood he never really undercut Jason's character. It is why many Red Hood fans enjoyed Lobdell's work. He nearly always wrote Jason as being in the right and as capable. He gave him deeper DCU connections with characters like Roy, Starfire, Artemis, and Bizarro and even increased his abilities with the All Caste. Basically he always put Jason in a good position and supported the character in that position. If Lobdell had done that for 9 years of Nightwing stories we would be praising Lobdell's work probably.

Then you compare that to the 9 years of Nightwing stories in that time and it is mostly writers undercutting Nightwing, writing Dick as being miserable or manipulated, or having stories where Dick is struggling to get by in nearly every encounter. It makes him seem less capable than he should be. He didn't gain any deeper DCU connections, he mostly lost them over that time, and he didn't gain any abilities or progress at all as a character. He was generally put in a position where he wasn't supported. It's why the Grayson run stood out as he felt a lot more capable in that series and actually gained some DCU connections like with Midnighter, but that didn't last long before being thrown back into the same old pattern.

And I think Dick fans complain about Bruce the most. I'm one and it feels like Bruce is the character that most of the complaints center around. I didn't mean that Dick fans hate Bruce or anything, I think some people in the thread took it as to mean that, but it is more just how Bruce and his stories effect Dick's character and derail his character or progression as a character. So the majority of criticism stems from that, but it is still focused on Bruce.

[Godlike13]

I'm no fan of Lobdell, but Lobdell's 9 year run on Red Hood he never really undercut Jason's character. It is why many Red Hood fans enjoyed Lobdell's work. He nearly always wrote Jason as being in the right and as capable. He gave him deeper DCU connections with characters like Roy, Starfire, Artemis, and Bizarro and even increased his abilities with the All Caste. Basically he always put Jason in a good position and supported the character in that position. If Lobdell had done that for 9 years of Nightwing stories we would be praising Lobdell's work probably.

Then you compare that to the 9 years of Nightwing stories in that time and it is mostly writers undercutting Nightwing, writing Dick as being miserable or manipulated, or having stories where Dick is struggling to get by in nearly every encounter. It makes him seem less capable than he should be. He didn't gain any deeper DCU connections, he mostly lost them over that time, and he didn't gain any abilities or progress at all as a character. He was generally put in a position where he wasn't supported. It's why the Grayson run stood out as he felt a lot more capable in that series and actually gained some DCU connections like with Midnighter, but that didn't last long before being thrown back into the same old pattern.

And I think Dick fans complain about Bruce the most. I'm one and it feels like Bruce is the character that most of the complaints center around. I didn't mean that Dick fans hate Bruce or anything, I think some people in the thread took it as to mean that, but it is more just how Bruce and his stories effect Dick's character and derail his character or progression as a character. So the majority of criticism stems from that, but it is still focused on Bruce.

He did undercut Jason though. I know Lobdell’s defenders are gonna come at me for this, but his 9 year redemption circle just watered down the character and distract from what made the character generally appealing in the first place. He turned Jason into a containment character for himself, and has seemingly filtered out the general audience. Jason series exists for Lobdell. The “deeper” connections he creates only exists under him. Lobdell couldn’t have made it 9 years with Nightwing cause readers wouldn’t have tolerated two Lobdell Nightwing series before anyone said anything even decent. Like with his TT, or well any other book not Red Hood, he couldn’t get away with what he somehow has on Red Hood. He lasted 8 issues on Nightwing before he threw it back at readers for being too stubborn to accept his poor work and ran.

The bar is completely different for Jason then Dick. Connections with characters like Roy, Starfire, Artemis, and Bizarro isn’t as big of a deal for Dick, as Dick has far more history and connections in general over his many years. We have seen that already with Dick. What’s new ground for Jason, is old tread for Dick. They fall into a lot of traps and laziness with Dick, but at least they haven’t beaten readers down so completely to just accept that kind consistent mediocrity as a creator’s fodder book for a decade. The can’t just throw in leftover characters and take from Titans mythos and call it new with Dick. And stuff like throwing a Bat symbol on Nightwing’s chest, and having him role play the Trinity, i don’t believe would go over nearly the same. Yes consistency is nice, but stagnation is an easy trap to fall into with Dick. As he’s been on the treadmill for so long.

The complaints are centered around Bruce because Dick has been so centered around Bruce. Which in lies many Nightwing’s fans problem. But I don’t think those complaints are aimed at Bruce’s character specifically though. Bruce doesn’t have to play the a-hole for Dick as much anymore. Its more about how Dick has to get tied to a chair or shot in the head to feed his man pain. I know myself I can’t stand when the family piles on Bruce.

[Bat-Meal]

Monster Town being an ongoing thing in Gotham that is not getting Batman's attention is not something I'm all that fond of.

Delegating isn't the same thing as ignoring. She can get along better with some of the monsters, so it makes sense.

[Badou]

He did undercut Jason though. I know Lobdell’s defenders are gonna come at me for this, but his 9 year redemption circle just watered down the character and distract from what made the character generally appealing in the first place. He turned Jason into a containment character for himself. Jason series exists for Lobdell. The “deeper” connections he creates only exists under him. Lobdell couldn’t have made it 9 years with Nightwing cause readers wouldn’t have tolerated two Lobdell Nightwing series before anyone said anything even decent. Like with his TT, or well any other book not Red Hood, he couldn’t get away with what he somehow has on Red Hood. He lasted 8 issues on Nightwing before he threw it back at readers for being too stubborn to accept his poor work and ran.

The bar is completely different for Jason then Dick. Connections with characters like Roy, Starfire, Artemis, and Bizarro isn’t as big of a deal for Dick, as Dick has far more history and connections in general over his many years. We have seen that already with Dick. What’s new ground for Jason, is old tread for Dick. They fall into a lot of traps and laziness with Dick, but at least they haven’t beaten readers down so completely to just accept that kind consistent mediocrity as a creator’s fodder book for a decade. The can’t just throw in leftover characters and take from Titans mythos and call it new with Dick. And stuff like throwing a Bat symbol on Nightwing’s chest, and having him role play the Trinity, i don’t believe would go over nearly the same. Yes consistency is nice, but stagnation is an easy trap to fall into with Dick. As he’s been on the treadmill for so long.

If you think Lobdell undercut Jason then by comparison Dick got his fucking legs chopped off. It isn't even close to me. Since the New 52 Dick's gotten beaten into the ground over and over and has nothing to show for it. No real growth or things you can point to as being a great addition. That isn't putting the character in a position to succeed. It's why I liked the Grayson run so much because it felt like they were actually trying to add to his character. You can not like what Lobdell did with Jason, but you can't argue that he hasn't grown the character's influence. Before the New 52 Jason was in prison or acting as an occasional antagonist for a book staring someone else. Lobdell turning him into more of a standard hero with his own title and new connections hadn't been done before and he gave things to him that will last far beyond his run. Like in Heroes in Crisis where Roy is stated to be Jason's best friend which was separated from Lobdell. Then you also have the character appearing in Bendis' Leviathan story and Johns' Three Jokers story too. Jason as a character is in as good of a place as he has ever been in and that was in part helped by Lobdell nearly always writing to support the character rather than tear him down.

Sure, maybe Lobdell stayed on too long and things got stagnant, but that is expected after 9 years. He left the character in a better state than he got him. Then you look at the 9 years for Nightwing and what does he have to show for it? He got the Owls shoved into his backstory? Is that it? He's in a worse place now than he was before becoming Batman pre-New 52. He's had his influence and his DCU connections stripped away from him with nearly every Nightwing story just writing the character as being miserable. I feel incredibly beaten down as a Nightwing fan. The Ric story has been awful, but we are now on our 3rd villain controlling/manipulating him in just the last 2 years. From Scarecrow, the Owls, and now the Joker. I'd take what Jason has had 10 times out of 10 compared to this. I'd even take it over the dull Bludhaven retread stuff that is completely uninspiring or the miserable New 52 run that was just finding new ways to make Dick miserable. Looking at the 9 years of Nightwing stories it just feels like such a grind to get through.

[Godlike13]

What Jason has had is what Nightwing currently has. Being a fodder book for one of DCs going nowhere creators, to spin their wheels at the bottom of the charts, is Nightwing’s current hell. That’s the last 9 years for a Jason. Acting like becoming more of a standard hero, or having thier own title, or having connections to Titans and Titan like characters is this big improvement or accomplishment but that is stuff that wouldn’t be a much of an accomplishment for Nightwing. That’s what you want, that’s your metric, well guess what Nightwing has had that, and has had that for multiple decades now.
Your basically giving Lobdell a pat on the back for making Jason more like Nightwing, while condemning Nightwing writers for not making Nightwing more then Nightwing. Being more standard is not something that’s gonna garner much praise with Nightwing. It probably shouldn’t even with Jason but Lobdell has established such a low bar that even just being more standard and doing standard stuff is somehow confused into being an accomplishment because Jason hasn’t had it before, and DC pretty much just didn’t care enough to take him off and try something else. What Jason has had gave us Ric as we know it. So enjoy I guess.

[WonderNight]

If you think Lobdell undercut Jason then by comparison Dick got his fucking legs chopped off. It isn't even close to me. Since the New 52 Dick's gotten beaten into the ground over and over and has nothing to show for it. No real growth or things you can point to as being a great addition. That isn't putting the character in a position to succeed. It's why I liked the Grayson run so much because it felt like they were actually trying to add to his character. You can not like what Lobdell did with Jason, but you can't argue that he hasn't grown the character's influence. Before the New 52 Jason was in prison or acting as an occasional antagonist for a book staring someone else. Lobdell turning him into more of a standard hero with his own title and new connections hadn't been done before and he gave things to him that will last far beyond his run. Like in Heroes in Crisis where Roy is stated to be Jason's best friend which was separated from Lobdell. Then you also have the character appearing in Bendis' Leviathan story and Johns' Three Jokers story too. Jason as a character is in as good of a place as he has ever been in and that was in part helped by Lobdell nearly always writing to support the character rather than tear him down.

Sure, maybe Lobdell stayed on too long and things got stagnant, but that is expected after 9 years. He left the character in a better state than he got him. Then you look at the 9 years for Nightwing and what does he have to show for it? He got the Owls shoved into his backstory? Is that it? He's in a worse place now than he was before becoming Batman pre-New 52. He's had his influence and his DCU connections stripped away from him with nearly every Nightwing story just writing the character as being miserable. I feel incredibly beaten down as a Nightwing fan. The Ric story has been awful, but we are now on our 3rd villain controlling/manipulating him in just the last 2 years. From Scarecrow, the Owls, and now the Joker. I'd take what Jason has had 10 times out of 10 compared to this. I'd even take it over the dull Bludhaven retread stuff that is completely uninspiring or the miserable New 52 run that was just finding new ways to make Dick miserable. Looking at the 9 years of Nightwing stories it just feels like such a grind to get through.

Right and all three of those last 3 villains have all been Bruce's villains not dick's.

[Godlike13]

Nevermind.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

As a Batman fan, this forum does make me feel like I'd be fine if the Batfamily just went away, so yeah the Bruce hate is a bit much. I didn't come to the Batman forum to read people hating on Batman. It's weird how Batman is the least popular on the Batman forum. So that has colored my views on the other characters a bit. I love Batman, so going on about how this or that Batfamily character is better isn't going to endear me to them.

I like the Batfamily, but again I'd like them better if not for their fans. But I'm mostly been aware of the Bruce bashing from Dick fans the most.

The best possible thing that could be done is to dissolve the batfamily, just put an end to it. Family fans seem to think that they get the short end and it sure as hell doesn't do anything positive for Batman. Clean break is what's needed, let Batman do his own thing free from the family, and let the family go off on their own to do their own thing; free of Batman's influence. Batman is the central figure of the bat franchise/mythos, it's not on him to change for the sake of the family. He doesn't exist to serve them nor is he dependent on them. He will be fine without any of them. They on the other hand benefit greatly from being associated with him, having a connection to the bat symbol, being seen as a son of his; particularly in Damian's case. Yet somehow Batman is always portrayed as the bad guy, he's the jerk, the a-hole, the bad father and whatever else people want to throw at him. But despite all that people still complain if the family is not present in his stories. Some are calling for Damian to walk away from Bruce, but where exactly would/will Damian be without Bruce? Would anyone even care about Damian if he wasn't known as the "Son of Batman". Some want it both ways, to criticize and condemn Batman while wanting the family to benefit from his popularity and the bat brand.

While I like the batfamily just fine, usually in moderate doses, but I’m starting to think they just aren’t a good influence on the big man himself’s character.
Thing is if you have a character who’s in the mentor role, the type fans seem to love the most are the Obi-Wan type. The fun, reliable kind. Batman is not the Obi-Wan, or General Iroh type. Alfred’s got that covered.
Nope, Batman is Mace Windu. And nobody likes Mace Windu. And what is Mace Windu’s role? To be a untrusting, manipulative dick, who gives the student an excuse to lash out.
Now I don’t want Bruce to be more like Obi Wan, that wouldn’t fit at all, this is one of those, it is what it is, situations.
Batman having sidekicks has been part of his character from almost the begining, sure, but there’s probably a reason why Batman’s most successful versions and Batman’s the most successful stories have downplayed that aspect of the character considerably.

[The True Detective]

As a Batman fan, this forum does make me feel like I'd be fine if the Batfamily just went away, so yeah the Bruce hate is a bit much. I didn't come to the Batman forum to read people hating on Batman. It's weird how Batman is the least popular on the Batman forum. So that has colored my views on the other characters a bit. I love Batman, so going on about how this or that Batfamily character is better isn't going to endear me to them.

I like the Batfamily, but again I'd like them better if not for their fans. But I'm mostly been aware of the Bruce bashing from Dick fans the most.

This is me to a T, generally speaking I don't hate the Batfamily but I don't really like most of them either. I'm largely indifferent to them, though like you the fact that their fans hate Bruce so much makes the petty side of me somewhat dislike the characters themselves. It seems like Batfamily fans always have to go out of their way to diss Bruce, they can never just focus on the characters they do like they must throw in a "Bruce is by far my least favorite member of the family."

It it was up to me the Batfamily would be Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Barbara and Damian and that'd be it. I know most of this forum would be estatic if Bruce were to permanently disappear so I don't feel guilty saying this.

[Konja7]

This is me to a T, generally speaking I don't hate the Batfamily but I don't really like most of them either. I'm largely indifferent to them, though like you the fact that their fans hate Bruce so much makes the petty side of me somewhat dislike the characters themselves. It seems like Batfamily fans always have to go out of their way to diss Bruce, they can never just focus on the characters they do like they must throw in a "Bruce is by far my least favorite member of the family."

It it was up to me the Batfamily would be Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Barbara and Damian and that'd be it. I know most of this forum would be estatic if Bruce were to permanently disappear so I don't feel guilty saying this.

Well, many of the people who complaints about Bruce are fans of Dick or Damian. In this forum, some of Dick fans wants Bruce to retire, so Dick is allowed to grow.

So, I don't think you words will affect a lot of Bruce complainers.

[The tall man]

This is me to a T, generally speaking I don't hate the Batfamily but I don't really like most of them either. I'm largely indifferent to them, though like you the fact that their fans hate Bruce so much makes the petty side of me somewhat dislike the characters themselves. It seems like Batfamily fans always have to go out of their way to diss Bruce, they can never just focus on the characters they do like they must throw in a "Bruce is by far my least favorite member of the family."

It it was up to me the Batfamily would be Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Barbara and Damian and that'd be it. I know most of this forum would be estatic if Bruce were to permanently disappear so I don't feel guilty saying this.

Honestly I could do without Damian, he brings nothing to the mythos other than being a club his fans use to beat Batman with. All you ever hear is Batman is the worst father/parent/ect... And it's like they expect Bruce to change his whole world for Damian, as if it's Damian and not Bruce who is the central figure in the franchise. I would say the true family is Bruce, Alfred and Dick with Gordon having an honorary spot. Barbara isn't necessary or essential as she usually does her own thing and is often judgemental of Bruce. But yes these days it seems the family and their fans only exists to rag on Bruce and make him the biggest bastard in the DCU. The guy as been called everything from a jerk to an outright villian, so it's easy to see why Batman fans wouldn't mind the family disappearing.