DC Speculation -- how will layoffs affect the Bat books?

[DurararaFTW]

Red Hood and the Outlaws, the resurrected Robin that chose his identity based on Batman's failings and choses means that are more ruthless then Batman, Damian, the really young Robin who has a hostile disposition and treats everyone with contempt due to his upbringing and even Cassandra Cain, the mute/near mute that has only known fighting and has lacked a proper upbringing are all character concepts that cast Batman in the role of neglectful fatherfigure so these characters can preserve their edge/base character concept while still being in a heroic role.

Tim, who has parents of his own and isn't really ever meant as such a dark, tortured character, should be easy to make work without demonising Bruce.

[Restingvoice]

Honestly I could do without Damian, he brings nothing to the mythos other than being a club his fans use to beat Batman with. All you ever hear is Batman is the worst father/parent/ect... And it's like they expect Bruce to change his whole world for Damian, as if it's Damian and not Bruce who is the central figure in the franchise. I would say the true family is Bruce, Alfred and Dick with Gordon having an honorary spot. Barbara isn't necessary or essential as she usually does her own thing and is often judgemental of Bruce. But yes these days it seems the family and their fans only exists to rag on Bruce and make him the biggest bastard in the DCU. The guy as been called everything from a jerk to an outright villian, so it's easy to see why Batman fans wouldn't mind the family disappearing.

Dude, changing your world for them is what happened if you have a kid. If they don't want to do that, if they want things to stay the way they are then yeah, they shouldn't add him, but they did, and they're keeping him. So they need to make the stories make sense. Adjust to the change. Don't just ignore things and expect people to not react.

[Konja7]

Honestly I could do without Damian, he brings nothing to the mythos other than being a club his fans use to beat Batman with. All you ever hear is Batman is the worst father/parent/ect... And it's like they expect Bruce to change his whole world for Damian, as if it's Damian and not Bruce who is the central figure in the franchise. I would say the true family is Bruce, Alfred and Dick with Gordon having an honorary spot. Barbara isn't necessary or essential as she usually does her own thing and is often judgemental of Bruce. But yes these days it seems the family and their fans only exists to rag on Bruce and make him the biggest bastard in the DCU. The guy as been called everything from a jerk to an outright villian, so it's easy to see why Batman fans wouldn't mind the family disappearing.

I don't see Barbara more judgemental than Dick. And Dick is currently an independent hero who does his own thing too.

The case of Barbara is curious, unlike Robin, Batgirl started as a more independent hero from Batman. However, many retcons had happened to her relationship with Batman, now Batman was a mentor for Barbara too (the first time she was Batgirl).

[Konja7]

Red Hood and the Outlaws, the resurrected Robin that chose his identity based on Batman's failings and choses means that are more ruthless then Batman, Damian, the really young Robin who has a hostile disposition and treats everyone with contempt due to his upbringing and even Cassandra Cain, the mute/near mute that has only known fighting and has lacked a proper upbringing are all character concepts that cast Batman in the role of neglectful fatherfigure so these characters can preserve their edge/base character concept while still being in a heroic role.

Tim, who has parents of his own and isn't really ever meant as such a dark, tortured character, should be easy to make work without demonising Bruce.

In this forum, Tim fans are one of the groups that least complain about Batman. I think it is partially because most of the current problems of Tim aren't related to Bruce (and Tim has been disconnected from Batman editorial).

That said, Tim doesn't seem to have parents anymore and the story of Tim is continuation of the killed Robin (Jason). So, I don't think it is so easy to make Tim work without demonize Batman anymore.


PS: Recently, I've discovered that fans of Cassandra also seem to have their fair share of complaints towards Batman.

[Aahz]

In this forum, Tim fans are one of the groups that least complain about Batman. I think it is partially because most of the current problems of Tim aren't related to Batm

I think it is also to a large part since Tim has not much interaction with Bruce, and there has not been much drama between them.

[dietrich]

I think Tim the kid with a family who Bruce endangered by putting in the same situation that killed his own kid [without tim's parents knowledge] demonises Bruce as well.

As a Damian fan, I do find it frustrating at times when Damian fans equate the lack of Damian in the Batman books as neglect. The book is called Batman. It's Batman's title, for telling Batman's story.

It's not Batman and family.
Batman might have a family but DC clearly likes pushing him as the badass hero rather than as a family guy. So do a lot of creators and that's fair.

I do however question why some writers only ever explore the family dynamic in a negative way. Bruce is a hero. He shouldn't be beating his kids and crap. That is on the writers not the fans.

[Konja7]

I think Tim the kid with a family who Bruce endangered by putting in the same situation that killed his own kid [without tim's parents knowledge] demonises Bruce as well.

I think the point is Tim fans won't demonize Batman for this aspect. After all, why Tim fans would demonize Bruce for the basic background of their favorite character.

That's why you don't usually see Dick or Jason fans complaining about the problematic in Robin concept or demonizing Bruce for having a Robin as a partner either.

They don't mean how a story could demonize Bruce. They mean how fans of a particular character demonize Bruce for his actions in a story.


That said, as it was mentioned, the lack of complaints from Tim fans is likely because the lack of interactions. If the writers make more interactions where Burce is a jerk with Tim (to create Tim's development) complaints from Tim's fans towards Batman will likely return.

Recently, Dick doesn't have much interaction with Batman either. However, DC still treats Dick pretty poorly (to develop Bruce's story), so a good amount of Dick's fans blame Bruce for this.

[Korath]

Dude, changing your world for them is what happened if you have a kid. If they don't want to do that, if they want things to stay the way they are then yeah, they shouldn't add him, but they did, and they're keeping him. So they need to make the stories make sense. Adjust to the change. Don't just ignore things and expect people to not react.

Quite true !

[The tall man]

It's Damian that benefits from the father/son relationship, not Bruce. DC should've had the balls to make Damian turn out to be Slade's son in Deathstroke vs Batman. That would have been the perfect solution to the Bruce/Damian drama that is currently being played out. Giving Batman a biological son was one of the worst mistakes DC ever made, as a character he is not suited to be a real parent; unlike Superman. I look at his relationship with Dick, Jason and Tim as more of a mentor/teacher/guardian than a parent. Damian is like a anchor dragging him down, an unwanted burden to have to deal with when he has his mission to fulfill. Having Damian be Slade's or anyone else's son would have been preferable than being the example all the Batman haters use to villifie Bruce. Of course Damian fans don't want that because Damian's prominence and recognition comes from being Batman's son. So it's a case of having one's cake and eating it too, hate on Batman while enjoying Damian's popularity because of Batman.

[Konja7]

It's Damian that benefits from the father/son relationship, not Bruce. DC should've had the balls to make Damian turn out to be Slade's son in Deathstroke vs Batman. That would have been the perfect solution to the Bruce/Damian drama that is currently being played out. Giving Batman a biological son was one of the worst mistakes DC ever made, as a character he is not suited to be a real parent; unlike Superman. I look at his relationship with Dick, Jason and Tim as more of a mentor/teacher/guardian than a parent. Damian is like a anchor dragging him down, an unwanted burden to have to deal with when he has his mission to fulfill. Having Damian be Slade's or anyone else's son would have been preferable than being the example all the Batman haters use to villifie Bruce. Of course Damian fans don't want that because Damian's prominence and recognition comes from being Batman's son. So it's a case of having one's cake and eating it too, hate on Batman while enjoying Damian's popularity because of Batman.

I've understood that DC wants to kill Damian (that was the original plan of Morrison), because they don't really want Bruce to be a father.

Damian returned because he was too popular. I read that WB also wants Damian.

That said, it is true that Damian benefit from the "Son of Batman" concept. That's why he is chosen as Robin in adaptations even when they need to totally change his personality for that story.

[prepmaster]

I look at his relationship with Dick, Jason and Tim as more of a mentor/teacher/guardian than a parent. Damian is like a anchor dragging him down, an unwanted burden to have to deal with when he has his mission to fulfill.

You tell me the guy who lost his parents when he was a child and trained himself to be a crime fighter to avenge the death of his parents & protect the lives of other kids' parents would not want to be a father figure to the orphans, kids that need a father figure? What do you think his mission is all about?

[TheCape]

You tell me the guy who lost his parents when he was a child and trained himself to be a crime fighter to avenge the death of his parents & protect the lives of other kids' parents would not want to be a father figure to the orphans, kids that need a father figure? What do you think his mission is all about?

Bruce main point is to make sure that what he suffered doesn't happen to everyone else. I'm not sure if that means that he has to be a father figure to anybody, but that is his mission stament.

With that said, he definetly was like a father to both Dick and Jason when they started as Robin, Tim is more debatable i think that it least more to teacher/student but i heard different opinions. Thougth with DC closing the gap in age, they seen to be more comfortable in presenting Bruce and Dick as brothers (you could make an argument that they are both father-son, big/little brother, but is clear that DC is pushing more from the later with him).

[Light of Justice]

I've understood that DC wants to kill Damian (that was the original plan of Morrison), because they don't really want Bruce to be a father.

Damian returned because he was too popular. I read that WB also wants Damian.

That said, it is true that Damian benefit from the "Son of Batman" concept. That's why he is chosen as Robin in adaptations even when they need to totally change his personality for that story.

But on some adaptation movie Son of Batman concept is not even needed nor mentioned. For example on Batman vs TMNT even with Ra's as main villain, there's no mention that Damian is related by blood with Batman or Ra's, non-comic fans viewer only know that when Damian called Bruce 'father'. Or on Batman Unlimited: Mech vs. Mutants, the only thing that told us the Robin is Damian is his nightmare about Ra's. So as Damian fans who loves him because of his personality and not because 'Son of Batman' status, I don't understand why they want to use Damian if they will removed his personality and rarely mentioning about his relation with Batman. Why not use Tim? Damian can be used on particular Son of Batman movie just like Jason is only used on UTRH storyline.

Grant Morrison originally want to kill Damian on his first four issue (with torpedo), but then other writers want to use him like on Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul, and BfTC. Then Morrison continued to use him, and in the end planned to kill him, with DC and Synder prepared Duke as replacement, but WB against it. Priest wanted to make him permanent Deathstroke's son if allowed. Now they tries to make him villain, who knows, after Damian's saga on animated movies were ended, maybe now DC will be able to get rid of Damian for real.

*I am on acceptance stage with self-pain post*

[Light of Justice]

It's Damian that benefits from the father/son relationship, not Bruce. DC should've had the balls to make Damian turn out to be Slade's son in Deathstroke vs Batman. That would have been the perfect solution to the Bruce/Damian drama that is currently being played out. Giving Batman a biological son was one of the worst mistakes DC ever made, as a character he is not suited to be a real parent; unlike Superman. I look at his relationship with Dick, Jason and Tim as more of a mentor/teacher/guardian than a parent. Damian is like a anchor dragging him down, an unwanted burden to have to deal with when he has his mission to fulfill. Having Damian be Slade's or anyone else's son would have been preferable than being the example all the Batman haters use to villifie Bruce. Of course Damian fans don't want that because Damian's prominence and recognition comes from being Batman's son. So it's a case of having one's cake and eating it too, hate on Batman while enjoying Damian's popularity because of Batman.

I really don't know this because I've never been dealt with human (not pet) adoption in real life, what's the difference between guardian relationship and parent relationship? I always thought that it's the same thing. And I think Dick and Jason robin era have parental relationship with Bruce, even more than Damian. The only time I remember Batman and Damian father-son relationship is on Batman and Robin with Damian was dead near half the book, and Supersons with Batman just occasionally there. Both are written by Tomasi, so that means on DC only Tomasi who was on board with Batman-Damian parental relationship.

[TheCape]

I really don't know this because I've never been dealt with human (not pet) adoption in real life, what's the difference between guardian relationship and parent relationship? I always thought that it's the same thing. And I think Dick and Jason robin era have parental relationship with Bruce, even more than Damian. The only time I remember Batman and Damian father-son relationship is on Batman and Robin with Damian was dead near half the book, and Supersons with Batman just occasionally there. Both are written by Tomasi, so that means on DC only Tomasi who was on board with Batman-Damian parental relationship.

Functionally there isn't one, mentally it comes down to the people involved and how they see their dynamics.