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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    "Random characters who happen to exist at the same time" is closer to the condition of reality than everything being tied and connected directly to one another. In real life Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, and Roosevelt all existed at the same time but they were all random people unconnected to each other individually whose own choices and different social structures put them on a collision course in World War II.
    That is literally a false equivalence those men were from different corners of the world the marvel universe exists solely on NYC and let’s be real if superheroes were cultivating in just one city people would have conspiracies of the US manufacturing superheroes


    Why not cultivate a poetic sensibility among readers where the cosmopolitan culturally diverse and adventurous world of real-life NYC finds a metaphor as a superhero city in comics?
    I don’t even know how to respond to that. all i will say is is there any reason why NYC isn’t the safest city in America when they have a dozen or so superheroes protecting or why the Avengers never deal with Magneto or the sinister six or even the fact the avengers and F4 are celebrities but hate Spider Man and the X Men

    This is whataboutism and picking at straws and a cheap and childish dodge. You asked about why people dislike Ultimate Marvel right. The fact is that you have to defend and excuse this, rather than cite plenty of countervailing and alternate moments of positive behavior to commend and defend.
    All i’m asking is do you base your opinion of the main marvel universe off the bad aspects? Like are you OK with Wolverine having sex with Squirrel Girl who until recently was like 16? Yes the Ultimates has bad elements but they don’t define the majority of it

    Actually one of the screenwriters behind Black Panther condemned that and said that it's one of the things wouldn't fly today. And the later MCU movies as per RDJ's request made Pepper Tony's only love interest and had Tony settle with her which isn't the case with the comics at all. RDJ asked for that partly out of friendship with Gwyneth Paltrow to make sure she would have an expanded role in the MCU. That actually went against director's Jon Favreau's original plan to have Happy and Pepper get hitched like in the comics and Tony to jump girl to girl a la James Bond.
    yeah because it’s not PC anymore. If a woman has sex with multiple guys she’s a strong sexually liberated woman but a man has sex with multiple women he’s a woman hater. So i guess you think James Bond is outdated?

    Look that’s one guy’s opinion. I think you’re looking too deep into this

    That was Ultimate Thor (not that it made him interesting) who came off as the nicest of the Ultimates.
    You have yet to back your claim that Ultimate Cap was consistently an asshole

    No he isn't. You literally don't understand the purpose of the character to claim this.
    I meant that was the point for ultimates Hulk

    For one thing the names don't flow well. Victor Von Doom has an assonance because of the increased stress of the "O" sound. "or"/"on"/"oom" It flows outward, sonorously. Whereas with Victor Van Damme, "or"/"an"/"am" lacks music, it's a mix of o and a vowels and that breaks the alliterative assonance. There's a reason why Stan Lee used alliterative named and why they work, because the sound it creates conveys a dimension of character. Having a character with a first name "Victor" which is actually a name you would expect of a hero with a surname called "doom" expresses something fundamental about the character that Victor and "Damme" don't and before you say "Damme" means "Damn", the name actually means "of Dam" it refers to Flemish people who live near dams. Where Stan Lee is direct and in your face, Ultimate Doom relies on America's ignorance and lack of knowledge of other cultures to work.
    You can have your opinion but to me Victor Van Damme doesn’t sound nearly as corny as Victor Von Doom. He may as well call himself and Evil Badguy. Gee I wonder which character will be the villain probably the one with literal Doom in his name. Not to mention Doom means fate yet he has nothing to do with fate

    The very first origin of Doom in Fantastic Four Annual #2 by Stan and Jack, portrays him as a member of an oppressed and persecuted minority in Latveria.
    Do you know how little that narrows it down? And again his parents were mystic Romani. Great representation may as well give Luke Cage gold chains and have him speak in slang

  2. #47
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Doom's name is already cheesy. Doom's shades of grey have always been greatly overstated by his fans, going into what tv tropes would call "draco in leather pants" territory. And his Romani heritage is handled so stereotypically that it is a thousand times more offensive than making him related to Vlad the Impaler. But then again, superhero comics in general have a lousy track record with Romani representation.

    IF you're referring to the origin story in FF annual #2, that was 1964 so is not a big "gotcha" to say it is dated. It reminds you of the depictions of "gypsies" in the old Universal horror movies. I think it is unfortunate that writers don't delve into his Romani heritage and maybe there is some reluctance there.

    But remember this. Jack Kirby served in the army during WWII, in fact in one of General Patton's divisions that were pushing there way through France. Since he could draw they used him as an advance scout to map out what lay ahead. One thing that shocked him was when he was scouting and came across a stockade of prisoners left behind from the retreat of the German forces in the town. So I'd say Kirby probably saw a lot of the country sides in those years when he was in the service and it's not that much of a stretch to surmise that he used his first hand view of Europe in those days back in 1943-1945. I think he and Stan both treat the Romani characters respectfully in that brief origin and it's my belief that they shared authorship on this as Stan frequently would have Jack block things out for him to script.

    Overstated shade of gray? I question that too. Things frequently happen in cycles in comics. You'll have some bat shit crazy stuff going on with Doom or you will get something different like when Gerry Conway writes him in Astonishing Tales #8 or in the arc with MODOK in his Sub-Mariner run. Gerry Conway has said in an interview piece for the Masterworks edition of his Sub-Mariner story that he views Doom as more of an anti-hero. His Doom is definitely more introspective. And you can't dismiss Roger Stern's GN Triumph and Torment either.

    We could go on to the Doom 2099 or Infamous Iron Man but this sidebar is enough for now since this is not the main topic. These shades of grey have been deliberately painted by various writers over the years


    I really miss the days when they had thought balloons because sometimes they would act as a counterpoint to a character's actions. We could go on to the Doom 2099 series but this sidebar is enough for now since this is not the main topic.



  3. #48
    Fantastic Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post

    All i’m asking is do you base your opinion of the main marvel universe off the bad aspects? Like are you OK with Wolverine having sex with Squirrel Girl who until recently was like 16? Yes the Ultimates has bad elements but they don’t define the majority of it
    I think it's a lot easier to do this for the Ultimate Universe because it only ran for 15 years and had a significantly smaller pool of talent working on it. If Peter Parker does something terrible in a comic that comes out today I can pull from over 50 years of material and say "Peter is actually a great guy and this was out of character!" If he did something terrible in the Ultimate line, than you have a limited number of issues to pull from to prove that the character isn't actually a bad person.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    I think it's a lot easier to do this for the Ultimate Universe because it only ran for 15 years and had a significantly smaller pool of talent working on it. If Peter Parker does something terrible in a comic that comes out today I can pull from over 50 years of material and say "Peter is actually a great guy and this was out of character!" If he did something terrible in the Ultimate line, than you have a limited number of issues to pull from to prove that the character isn't actually a bad person.
    Agree with this. I think what's also difficult about this is that in this concentrated amount of time, there were a lot of weird "mature" ideas being put to paper. Again, I'd place most of this on Millar being the kind of writer that he is. He's very much the Michael Bay of comics where things are done to be cool and edgy (which is fine). I personally think there were too many of these negative aspects, turning what could have been a well written, deconstructive take on the superhero genre into something overblown and tasteless. Sorry to use another X-Men comparison, but for that stuff Morrison's New X-Men and Milligan's X-Statix scratch that itch more than enough for me!

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    I think it's a lot easier to do this for the Ultimate Universe because it only ran for 15 years and had a significantly smaller pool of talent working on it. If Peter Parker does something terrible in a comic that comes out today I can pull from over 50 years of material and say "Peter is actually a great guy and this was out of character!" If he did something terrible in the Ultimate line, than you have a limited number of issues to pull from to prove that the character isn't actually a bad person.
    Thank you. You concisely expressed in a single paragraph what I spent epic length posts trying to convey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    yeah because itís not PC anymore.
    I think I am starting to get the appeal Ultimate Marvel has for you.

    You have yet to back your claim that Ultimate Cap was consistently an asshole
    He's generally quite brusque and curt in his interactions with fellow Ultimates. He's also rude and dismissive towards Spider-Man on a level that 616 Cap would never be. 616 Cap have had far more friendly moments and Peter has said multiple times that Steve Rogers is the only person he has met who reminds him of his Uncle Ben. 616 Cap also at times saw Spider-Man as a replacement goldfish or substitute for Bucky Barnes (before Brubaker's run of course).

    I meant that was the point for ultimates Hulk
    You defended Ultimate Hulk by claiming that the original Hulk was supposed to be some cannibal psycho. He was not.

    Do you know how little that narrows it down? And again his parents were mystic Romani.
    Only his mother was, and she was an outlier in her community for her practice of sorcery. His father Werner was a kindly doctor and simple person. In the Ultimate Marvel, they made Doom's father evil when the original character sacrificed his life to save his son from the cold. The whole point of Doctor Doom was that he had a good upbringing and good parents and in most respects his origin story resembles any hero's origin story, but somewhere along the way the same journey took him to the other side.

    Whereas in Ultimate Marvel, it's made out that he was evil from the get-go, he had evil in his blood (Vlad the Impaler or Dracula is his ancestor), his father is evil and so on.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    You can have your opinion but to me Victor Van Damme doesn’t sound nearly as corny as Victor Von Doom. He may as well call himself and Evil Badguy. Gee I wonder which character will be the villain probably the one with literal Doom in his name. Not to mention Doom means fate yet he has nothing to do with fate
    It's kind of still a "total bad guy" name, and he ends up being called Doom exclusively anyways, so...

  7. #52
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    You can have your opinion but to me Victor Van Damme doesn’t sound nearly as corny as Victor Von Doom.
    Victor Van Damme at worst sounds like it's trying to hard to be taken seriously. At worst, it sounds like nothing at all, which perfectly embodies how impactful the character was. Compared to normal Doom, he was nothing.

    Not to mention Doom means fate yet he has nothing to do with fate
    Doom doesn't mean "fate". It means death, destruction, or a horrible fate, and if you don't think that describes Doom then I'm wondering if you know anything about the character at all.

    - That’s just plain false. Cap was the warmest and most pure hearted of the Ultimates. With Widow again I concede that though I still find her turn more interesting than Black Widow normally is
    Being the most pure hearted of the Ultimates is like being the most tamed rabid badger.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Thank you. You concisely expressed in a single paragraph what I spent epic length posts trying to convey.
    Then why do people say Harry Potter The Cursed Child was a glorified fanfic where everyone acts out of character when the harry potter series only lasted what 15 years?

    I think I am starting to get the appeal Ultimate Marvel has for you.
    What exactly is that suppose to mean? You really think Millar is a conservative despite criticizing Bush and the Gulf Wars and the US military complex?

    Even the youíre criticizing Stark for being a womanizer but itís 2020 bro free love. Why canít a man love however many women he wants?

    Letís be real. If there was a billionaire like Stark women would throw themselves at him

    He's generally quite brusque and curt in his interactions with fellow Ultimates. He's also rude and dismissive towards Spider-Man on a level that 616 Cap would never be. 616 Cap have had far more friendly moments and Peter has said multiple times that Steve Rogers is the only person he has met who reminds him of his Uncle Ben. 616 Cap also at times saw Spider-Man as a replacement goldfish or substitute for Bucky Barnes (before Brubaker's run of course).
    Yes he was very brusque and curt when he was concerned for Jan after being hospitalized or when Stark told them he had brain cancer

    Spider Man was also a kid and on top of that Cap is a more by the books guy so of course he wouldnít care for a vigilante swinging around NYC

    You defended Ultimate Hulk by claiming that the original Hulk was supposed to be some cannibal psycho. He was not.
    I think you misunderstood what I said. All i said was that was the point of Hulk as in this Hulk. Heís the opposite of everything Banner isnít in this version. Banner is a vegetarian so Hull is a ďcannibalĒ (i mean is hulk really human?) Banner is an incel Hulk is obsessed with sex. At least this Hulk seems to care about Banner

    Only his mother was, and she was an outlier in her community for her practice of sorcery. His father Werner was a kindly doctor and simple person. In the Ultimate Marvel, they made Doom's father evil when the original character sacrificed his life to save his son from the cold. The whole point of Doctor Doom was that he had a good upbringing and good parents and in most respects his origin story resembles any hero's origin story, but somewhere along the way the same journey took him to the other side.
    You think when Lee and Kirby wrote about a guy literally named Doom they intended him to be a heroís journey gone wrong? BTW what superhero exactly have a happy childhood usually itís a tragic one. Iím sorry but if this was any other discussion youíd be saying Doom is an example of outdated offensive stereotyping. even then Romani are white. It isnít even a race romani is a culture just like how jewish is not a race it is a religion and culture

    Whereas in Ultimate Marvel, it's made out that he was evil from the get-go, he had evil in his blood (Vlad the Impaler or Dracula is his ancestor), his father is evil and so on.
    And again you think when Kirby came up with a villain named Victor Von Doom he intended him to have a tragic backstory?

    And btw no the Ultimates was a bigger inspiration for the MCU than 616

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Being the most pure hearted of the Ultimates is like being the most tamed rabid badger.
    Ok this made me laugth, but i don't know how true it is.

    I think you misunderstood what I said. All i said was that was the point of Hulk as in this Hulk. He’s the opposite of everything Banner isn’t in this version. Banner is a vegetarian so Hull is a “cannibal” (i mean is hulk really human?) Banner is an incel Hulk is obsessed with sex. At least this Hulk seems to care about Banner
    Never read The Ultimates, but if this is what Ultimate Hulk is supposed to be...this is really the most unapealling take that i have ever heard for the Hulk, i supposed that it does explain the Redneck Hulks from Old Man Logan.
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  10. #55
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    Doom in latin i should’ve said meant fate

    Being the most pure hearted of the Ultimates is like being the most tamed rabid badger.
    So you think Stark, Thor, Wasp, Hawkeye or even Pietro and Wanda were assholes? Hell even Hank was a good guy before he hurt Jan and even after he tried to redeem himself

  11. #56
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    Why does the Hulk need to be appealing? He is a monster? When Banner learned to control the Hulk in Ultimates 2 Hulk was toned down a lot. Even then Hulk only comes out for two fights

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    Why does the Hulk need to be appealing? He is a monster? When Banner learned to control the Hulk in Ultimates 2 Hulk was toned down a lot. Even then Hulk only comes out for two fights
    You think that i'm talking about sex appeal or something?, i'm talking about characther premise and concept. That Banner/Hulk doesn't look like anything compelling to me as a protagonist and frankly it come across as ramdom instead of being a modernization to me, but hey taste differs i'm glad that you enjoyed it, but that's not really a Hulk that i want to read in a monthly basis.
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  13. #58
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    What exactly is that suppose to mean?
    You obviously have an issue with "political correctness" and that explains the nostalgia for an era which trafficked in taboo-crossing crude taste storytelling.

    You really think Millar is a conservative despite criticizing Bush and the Gulf Wars and the US military complex?
    I think he watches too much Southpark.

    Even the youíre criticizing Stark for being a womanizer but itís 2020 bro free love. Why canít a man love however many women he wants?

    Letís be real. If there was a billionaire like Stark women would throw themselves at him
    Because of the power differential in the workplace. When Stark seduces his interns, he has soft power and other exercising over them while also contributing and perpetrating a workplace culture where women are seen as arm candy first and as coworkers and colleagues second.

    You think when Lee and Kirby wrote about a guy literally named Doom they intended him to be a heroís journey gone wrong?
    Why do people and fans assume that Lee and Kirby were some kind of morons who lacked sophistication and intuition?

    And btw no the Ultimates was a bigger inspiration for the MCU than 616
    MCU took inspiration from everything. Avengers 2012 mashed together the first ever Avengers issue where Loki harasses the Avengers and makes them all team up against him, while borrowing the name and concept of a Chitauri army from Ultimates (albeit changing their powers and abilities to no longer make them Skrull knockoff). But in general, its borrowings from The Ultimates is just from Vol. 1 and even then fairly surface. In general Bryan Hitch, the artist behind the look of the Ultimates was far more influential than the writer Mark Millar. In the grand scheme of things, the MCU evolved and centered on franchises like Guardians of the Galaxy and Black Panther who weren't heavily featured in the Ultimates. The version of Thor we see in the movies is drawn from 616 (JMS' run for the first movie, Simonson's, Kirby's, and Aaron's run for the third). The overarching storyline of the MCU is Jim Starlin's THE INFINITY GAUNTLET which is 616.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    You think that i'm talking about sex appeal or something?, i'm talking about characther premise and concept. That Banner/Hulk doesn't look like anything compelling to me as a protagonist and frankly it come across as ramdom instead of being a modernization to me, but hey taste differs i'm glad that you enjoyed it, but that's not really a Hulk that i want to read in a monthly basis.
    You know I should add that cannibalism is a general theme across Ultimate Marvel. Hulk is a cannibal but Ultimate Magneto talks about raising humans as livestock and mentions offhand that he's eaten humans as a gourmet meal. Ultimate Blob of course ate the Wasp in The Ultimates.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    You think that i'm talking about sex appeal or something?, i'm talking about characther premise and concept. That Banner/Hulk doesn't look like anything compelling to me as a protagonist and frankly it come across as ramdom instead of being a modernization to me, but hey taste differs i'm glad that you enjoyed it, but that's not really a Hulk that i want to read in a monthly basis.
    I say appealing as in likable. This Hulk was a monster. And Ultimate Hulk was never a solo character he was always a side character in the Ultimates

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    I say appealing as in likable. This Hulk was a monster. And Ultimate Hulk was never a solo character he was always a side character in the Ultimates
    Well, if he is gonna be a part of the team he is a protagonits, so he has be likable to some extent in order for me to root for him, even an asshole like Wolverine can be likable with rigth touch, if that's not the angle that they are going for then he should be interesting enougth for me to look past his bad behavior, so far nothing that i heard or wacth from Ultimate Hulk fill that requirement.

    You know I should add that cannibalism is a general theme across Ultimate Marvel. Hulk is a cannibal but Ultimate Magneto talks about raising humans as livestock and mentions offhand that he's eaten humans as a gourmet meal. Ultimate Blob of course ate the Wasp in The Ultimates.
    And i thougth that Ultimate Magneto couldn't go lower....Jesus.
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