Why do people hate Ultimate Marvel?

[Agent Z]

As for the thread. I liked Ultimate Spider-Man. Ultimate X-Men and Ultimatum not so much. The Ultimate Universe had good ideas and bad ideas same as everything else.

[Dboi2001]

They are mostly from Romania hence why they’re called Romani. They were only called Gypsy because people thought they were Egyptian. Romani is more of a culture than a race like Jewish. Even then he was born in Latveria which is in Eastern Europe and neighbors Romania

You really believe people would confuse a villain with an 80s action star? JCVD isn’t even all that famous these days so I doubt most people really know who JCVD is

[Dboi2001]

Literally the first article I find about Cardi B is “Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion new video should be celebrated not scolded.” Yes there are still people who have decency however the majority of society especially with the youth think that men and women can have sex with as many people they want and be as sexualized as much as they want

[Iron Maiden]

They are mostly from Romania hence why they’re called Romani. They were only called Gypsy because people thought they were Egyptian. Romani is more of a culture than a race like Jewish. Even then he was born in Latveria which is in Eastern Europe and neighbors Romania

They are throughout Europe and are not just in Romania. Rom happens to be part of their language and it means "man" so this is what they call themselves, not just because they live in Romania.

You really believe people would confuse a villain with an 80s action star? JCVD isn’t even all that famous these days so I doubt most people really know who JCVD is

Sure they would. It's not like you can't find his movies on cable or streaming.

[Dboi2001]

My argument is that the 2000s should be examined and scrutinized the same way we examine and scrutinize the "1940s". (Which incidentally is the point of Watchmen which literally compares heroes from the 40s with heroes from the 60s and by the end of the comic, both generations of superheroes tend to be f--ked up dinosaurs in their own way).The argument that the past has values that are no longer acceptable and worth revisiting and re-examining ultimately extends to the values and ideas of the present as well. The 2000s are certainly more progressive a place to live and be in than the 1940s but that doesn't mean that the works made in that era get a free pass or shouldn't be scrutinized. And in general Ultimate Marvel is pretty vaunting in most respects. To the extent it identifies a flaw in the classic Marvel era, it doesn't offer many improvements or alternatives.

And you think in 10 years things that are Ok now will be disgusting?

Fans of Ultimate Comics just don't like people making fun and calling them out the way Ultimate Marvel made a play at calling out the '60s and the '40s. That's what we call hypocrisy.

I don't have an issue with outdated themes and characterization from the 40s and 60s. I don't care that Dr Doom is a gypsy mystic or that the Maximoffs are gypsy circus performers but you are taking this grandstand about how the Ultimates is outdated and a sign of the times but ignoring that much of 616 is just that like Sue falling in love with Reed when she was a child and he was a grown ass man or even the fact Pym fell in love with his science partner's daughter. Today that would be a little weird but then an older man and younger woman wasn't uncommon and it doesn't bother me

Right after Black Widow turned evil, Stark gets over her by asking an assistant to bring women across the street to him and the next comic has him sleeping with interns. The former is a kind of "droit du seigneur" feudal fantasy (is it any surprise that Joss Whedon whose Age of Ultron has Tony casually mentioning that he'll bring primae noctis, is now effectively cancelled?) and the latter is the creepy behavior that led to #MeToo.

So you think women are either too stupid or too incompetent to say no? Like Monica Lewinsky never claimed Clinton manipulated her to have sex with him she did it on her own accord. Does the definition of consent mean something else now?

Ultimate Spider-Man kept Spider-Man in high school for some 150 odd issues whereas the originals had Peter graduate in Issue #28. It was a pretty big deviation yet people do like Ultimate Spider-Man. So no, it's simply not true that people dislike Ultimate Marvel just for deviating slightly. Disliking the Hulk for being a Cannibal, and Steve Rogers for being a Neocon, is not at all equivalent to having an issue that the costume doesn't have the same pattern as the original.

But the idea of Peter being a kid superhero remained and he still spent a ton of time in college. Again Rogers was not a neocon he lamented at how black people were oppressed during his life

Ultimate Captain America somehow being a neoconservative is based on an incorrect understanding of the 30s and 40s (which were far less conservative than the 50s, and there's a reason why American right-winger focus on going back to the "50s" rather than the "40s") by a dude from Scotland whose idea of America is based on prejudices and old movies.

No he wasn't. He disagreed with invading the middle east and agreed with Colonel Al Rhaman that the US was hurting ordinary people. And FDR was a homophobe

I think people want to replicate the 50s because that was when most american industries were at their peak and the standard of living greatly improved. The 40s was also the decade of the recovery that FDR dragged out and WW2 so you really wonder why people don't say things should be like the 40s? And no the 50s were not more conservative

regardless this isn't a political discussion please try not to turn it into that

[Dboi2001]

Ok but like I said Doom was from Latveria which neighbors Romania so him being German is unlikely. I really doubt people gave a crap that Dr Doom had the same name as a washed up 80s action star. As long as Dr Doom isn't an online internet troll persona I don't think people will care too much

[Billy Maximoff]

I really liked the Ultimate Universe in the beginning, but a lot of fan-favorite characters started permanently dying in pretty horrible ways.

[Captain Nash]

I like the Ultimate Universe until Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum. At that point it was just trash and trashed for shock value.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And you think in 10 years things that are Ok now will be disgusting?

In 10 years, things taken for granted right now, will be re-evaluated, scrutinized and criticized. Stuff fashionable now will be unfashionable then. That's how it works, yeah.

...but you are taking this grandstand about how the Ultimates is outdated and a sign of the times but ignoring that much of 616 is just that like Sue falling in love with Reed when she was a child

That's been retconned out. That bit about Sue having a girlish crush on an adult Reed was done in a flashback in John Byrne's run and was retconned out explicitly during Matt Fraction's run. That's not true anymore.

...or even the fact Pym fell in love with his science partner's daughter.

Given how that marriage ended in 616 Marvel, where during the requisite story arc (Avengers #211-230, aka "the Trial of Yellowjacket" aka "the Hank slaps Janet" saga) this was acknowledged in-page and called out as an example of why Hank and Janet were always doomed to fail, I think 616 Marvel held itself to account on that score.

So you think women are either too stupid or too incompetent to say no? Like Monica Lewinsky never claimed Clinton manipulated her to have sex with him she did it on her own accord. Does the definition of consent mean something else now?

Coercion in the workplace where a power differential exists between you and your superior is a widely acknowledged and accepted part of sexual harassment. The fact is that women who say no and who have their consent accepted on the surface, can face accusations and consequences like say bad recommendations, poor reputation ("she's frigid and cold") and so on. As such women in such situations face pressure to consent or face consequences. Regardless of whether some gallant bosses will accept "no" fairly, the fact is women can't know or trust men in that situation. So that's why stuff like this is a red flag. It also contributes to the corruption of a workplace where women aren't valued as colleagues and co-workers.

So Ultimate Tony Stark, who would indeed qualify as a kind of Clintonian neoliberal libertine type, is to be condemned. And Bill Clinton isn't exactly popular even among democrats these days.

[Mr. White]

While I can't speak for others but I only hate parts of the Ultimate Universe.

Loved it at the onset particularly Ultimates 1 & 2 (which I think every comicbook fan should own), Ultimate Spider-Man and Ultimate X-Men. The "realism"/modernization was highly refreshing.

It was also interesting to see the different iterations of classic characters and the constant sense of "I wonder how they would be different" brought an element of anticipation.

But with many things, Marvel fell back on the old tropes and that realism/freshness/charm was lost; with the Universe becoming a parody of its old self. Of course having creative freedom led creators to go all out with a lot of things being done for shock value.

That said, there are a suprisingly large number of smaller stories that were actually good - all prior to (or taking place prior to) Ultimatum.

Post-Ultimatum - struggling to come up with up to 5 decent stories.

[Marvel Forever]

I do not hate Ultimate Marvel. True, some of the artwork and stories in Ultimate Fantastic Four was lacking, especially in the middle issues. However, the early and late issues were quite promising. I especially was absolutely thrilled with the female Red Ghost issues!

[Snoop Dogg]

Ultimate Doomsday Trilogy, some of Ultimate Comics: X, Death of Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate Fallout, Spencer Ultimate Comics: X-Men, the first and only the first arc of Ultimate Comics: Avengers, Ultimate Comics: Spider-Man before they relaunched it with Marquez, the first arc of Hickman Ultimates, and maybe the Fiakov stuff if you like him.

Post-Ultimatum had richer, more interesting material than the slog the line had become pre-Ultimatum with X-Men and Fantastic Four becoming progressively more painful to read while Ultimates went to **** after reaching the peak of the mountain with 2 and USM just kept being good as usual.

[Dboi2001]

you are actually going off topic and taking fiction too seriously. Sorry the Ultimates aren't perfect angels

[Frontier]

Given how that marriage ended in 616 Marvel, where during the requisite story arc (Avengers #211-230, aka "the Trial of Yellowjacket" aka "the Hank slaps Janet" saga) this was acknowledged in-page and called out as an example of why Hank and Janet were always doomed to fail, I think 616 Marvel held itself to account on that score.

Well, aside from when Busiek wrote them.

[U.N. Owen]

I also dislike the idea of connecting so much to the super soldier program. Mutants? failed super soldiers and their descendants. Hank Pym? Worked on the super soldier program. European heroes? Super soldier program. Mr. Sinister? Super soldier program.

I know people harp on the MCU for connecting everything to Tony Stark, but come on, the Ultimate Universe did this to absurd degrees.