Why do people hate Ultimate Marvel?

[Dboi2001]

I’ve seen a lot of people hate on the Ultimate Marvel imprint that lasted from 2000 to 2011 saying that it was overly edgy and has aged horribly but I just don’t see it. I recently got comiXology and say the Ultimates vol 1 was free and read it and I absolutely loved it. This really got me into the other Ultimate titles and have loved all of them so far. I’m currently working my way through Ultimates 2 and am loving it so far. I just don’t get the hate for it. I’ve heard bad things about Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum but I see people specifically target Mark Millar’s titles. I know Millar isn’t the most popular guy and I’m not usually a fan of his but I’ve enjoyed a lot of his marvel work including Civil War and Ultimate X-Men.

I see people say the Ultimate versions of the characters are just assholes of beloved heroes but I disagree. Sure they have flaws some more than others but I wouldn’t call them assholes by a long shot. On top of that people have a tendency to take parts out of context without looking at the entire story or even just the context. The biggest offender is the “You think this letter stands for France?” Yes it was a stupid and cheesy thing to say but Cap admit that later on. I guess you could criticize Millar for writing something stupid to backtrack later on but it isn’t like these things go unnoticed in the story. And because of one line that Cap admit later on people say he was a bigot and conservative. It’s like they boil these characters to the most negative traits and say that is all their characters were

So I just don’t get the hate for the Ultimate Marvel line. Am I upset it ended? Eh a little but I guess you could say it ran its course not to mention it was never built to last forever unlike the regular marvel universe. Part of the appeal was it was more grounded and death was mostly permanent which wouldn’t work with serialized titles that go on forever. In many ways I think it is what DC should’ve done for the New 52 just create a separate rebooted universe, leave the main universe and then eventually merge the more popular elements to the main universe. It was honestly a brilliant idea by marvel to bring in new readers and basically saved the company from bankruptcy

[Lee Stone]

I liked the Ultimates.
During the first run it was something akin to Joe Jusko doing the Marvel Masterpieces cards. It raised the bar so high that anybody just doing regular quality stuff was going to pale in comparison.
And eventually, the Ultimate books did start looking just like other Marvel comics.

I think one of the problems with a line like Ultimates is that everyone enjoys it at the start, when the universe is still new and unexplored. But once it gets past a certain point, it becomes just an alternate Marvel, with the same levels of complexity and barriers to entry.

It's very hard to not go too far with building the universe if you want the books to succeed. If you don't expand at least a little bit, people will think the imprint is doomed (Strange Tales, for example).

[charliehustle415]

People hate parts of the Ultimate Universe.

Ultimate Spidey is probably one of the best Spidey books ever written, not only did it revamp and update Peter but it introduced Miles to the world.

People really hate what Loeb did with the universe and Millar's stereo typical writing style (but I liked the his Ultimates & X-Men).

Once the big guns left the only title that was consistently good was Ultimate Spider-Man because Bendis was the only writer on the book which is quite historic.

There were some stand out runs after Loeb, Hickman's New Ultimates were pretty good which allowed him to go on to write the 616 Avengers book.

[Riv86672]

Like they said above, I like PARTS of Ultimate Marvel/liked it at the beginning.

Ultimate Spider-man was a great re-imagining, I just have to stop reading the series at a certain point and it’s gold.

Ultimates was another re-imagining I enjoyed. A twisted version of some of my favorite heroes that I was really entertained by, and really glad wasn’t 616 canon! Again, just need to stop reading before the inevitable over milking of the cow.

Both Ultimate Spidey and Ultimates gave us things that made their way onto the big screen, which says a lot about the impact the books had at one point.

[Morgoth]

I really adored Ultimate line-up, sometimes I liked it even more than main universe. But then Ultimatum happened. So... I guess you see what I mean

[Tony Stark]

As others have said people hate some parts of the UU. Personally I adored the UU. I was beyond happy to have another Tony to read. I miss it and hope they bring it back. Ultimate Tony was a force of nature and I love that Warren Ellis got to write him a few times.

[Dboi2001]

Well sure I hate parts of 616 that’s inevitable. But I just see a lot of hate for the ultimate universe. Like I really don’t see how the Ultimates were assholes which is the biggest criticism of the book

[Shinglepants]

I obviously can’t speak for everyone but I was a big fan of the early Ultimates stuff until Loeb completely derailed it. Outside of Ultimatum....

I think many people have a problem with Millar as he’s not exactly the most nuanced writer. I guess his portrayal of many favourites was too big a departure for many.

[From The Shadows]

I never really saw that anyone hated it. I liked it in the beginning. Like X-Men and Spider-man, didn't read any other stuff though like The Avengers.

[lowfyr]

I liked a lot of the Ultimate Universe. The X-Men or Fantastic Four Version was great in the first years to say nothing about Spider-Man.

Somethings not so much. But that happens with everything.

Problems arose later and after Loeb got his fingers on it this was more or less dead. The dark and gritty got out of control with Ultimatum.

[scilover]

yeah, that right. Not all ultimate is bad. Only few.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I’ve seen a lot of people hate on the Ultimate Marvel imprint that lasted from 2000 to 2011 saying that it was overly edgy and has aged horribly but I just don’t see it.

The normalization of incest, the glorification of sexual harassment, the cannibalism.

You don't see that, my dude? There is absolutely no way Ultimate Marvel would be published the same way today.

Your argument makes it seem like Ultimate Marvel was some kind of harmless work that was misunderstood and so on. Well it wasn't. Ultimate Marvel was a popular successful mainstream work in that time and it reflected the aesthetics and "stuff considered cool" elements of its time (2000-2008) and then the moment passed, the culture changed and fans moved on, and Ultimate Marvel proved to have no timeless qualities.

I know Millar isn’t the most popular guy and I’m not usually a fan of his but I’ve enjoyed a lot of his marvel work including Civil War and Ultimate X-Men.

The single best thing he ever wrote for Marvel is MARVEL KNIGHTS:SPIDER-MAN but unfortunately that didn't get him notice, attention, and fame. It's a shame for a talented writer that his most influential work is his worst stuff.

As for Ultimate Marvel as a whole

Ultimate Spider-Man = Good.
Ultimate X-Men = Bad.
Ultimates = Terrrible, until Hickman came along.
Ultimate Fantastic Four = Boring.

Aside from Bryan Hitch's artwork, nothing in Ultimates Vol.1 is good. In most respects it's not very different from Jeph Loeb's run later on, or Ultimatum even.

[Dboi2001]

The normalization of incest, the glorification of sexual harassment, the cannibalism.

You don't see that, my dude? There is absolutely no way Ultimate Marvel would be published the same way today.

I mean 616 has gone down those rabbit holes before. Ultimates 3 was bad I agree. Also if you’re talking about Hulk they depict him as a villain and monster

Your argument makes it seem like Ultimate Marvel was some kind of harmless work that was misunderstood and so on. Well it wasn't. Ultimate Marvel was a popular successful mainstream work in that time and it reflected the aesthetics and "stuff considered cool" elements of its time (2000-2008) and then the moment passed, the culture changed and fans moved on, and Ultimate Marvel proved to have no timeless qualities.

I think people inflate certain issues or things that weren’t even a problem within the context of the story. And yeah the Ultimates are for better or worse very 2000s but I don’t think that’s a problem. Like that’s just comic books in general. For example how was captain America a bigot without the “A is for France.”

As for Ultimate Marvel as a whole

Ultimate Spider-Man = Good.
Ultimate X-Men = Bad.
Ultimates = Terrrible, until Hickman came along.
Ultimate Fantastic Four = Boring.

Aside from Bryan Hitch's artwork, nothing in Ultimates Vol.1 is good. In most respects it's not very different from Jeph Loeb's run later on, or Ultimatum even.

Can you expand on how Ultimates 1 and 2 were terrible? And I enjoyed Ultimate X Men vol 1. Haven’t read F4 yet

[Iron Maiden]

The normalization of incest, the glorification of sexual harassment, the cannibalism.

You don't see that, my dude? There is absolutely no way Ultimate Marvel would be published the same way today.

Your argument makes it seem like Ultimate Marvel was some kind of harmless work that was misunderstood and so on. Well it wasn't. Ultimate Marvel was a popular successful mainstream work in that time and it reflected the aesthetics and "stuff considered cool" elements of its time (2000-2008) and then the moment passed, the culture changed and fans moved on, and Ultimate Marvel proved to have no timeless qualities.



The single best thing he ever wrote for Marvel is MARVEL KNIGHTS:SPIDER-MAN but unfortunately that didn't get him notice, attention, and fame. It's a shame for a talented writer that his most influential work is his worst stuff.

As for Ultimate Marvel as a whole

Ultimate Spider-Man = Good.
Ultimate X-Men = Bad.
Ultimates = Terrrible, until Hickman came along.
Ultimate Fantastic Four = Boring.

Aside from Bryan Hitch's artwork, nothing in Ultimates Vol.1 is good. In most respects it's not very different from Jeph Loeb's run later on, or Ultimatum even.

And don't forget goat-legged Ultimate Doom, then again, lets do forget him When Warren Ellis took over the second arc of the UFF I was really looking forward to it. But I think the concept Warren Ellis had for Ultimate Doom just was hard to get one's head around. He had turned the MU origin on its head by making Victor the scion of a wealthy family who then after the transporter accident ended up living in one of Europe's shanty towns and created a legion of followers. The goat legs disappear for a while in the arc with the Zombie FF but return again near the end with a completely loopy version of the character. Didn't Ultimate Doom show up during the incursions too but I can't recall what happened to him. Miles tangled with him but I don't recall any real follow up on that. Maybe God Emperor Doom banished him

Johnny was assumed to be gay IIRC but maybe that was just the weird hair style that Greg Land gave him. Eventually Sue and Ben fall in love in the UFF, another flip on the FF comics where Ben was angry at losing out on a chance to gain Sue's affection, something that was dropped pretty quickly. Later Stan and Jack introduced Alicia anyway. The relationship with Sue and Reed got truly bizarre at the end also when she kind of forced Reed into getting her pregnant IIRC.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And don't forget goat-legged Ultimate Doom, then again, lets do forget him When Warren Ellis took over the second arc of the UFF I was really looking forward to it. But I think the concept Warren Ellis had for Ultimate Doom just was hard to get one's head around. He had turned the MU origin on its head by making Victor the scion of a wealthy family who then after the transporter accident ended up living in one of Europe's shanty towns and created a legion of followers. The goat legs disappear for a while in the arc with the Zombie FF but return again near the end with a completely loopy version of the character. Didn't Ultimate Doom show up during the incursions too but I can't recall what happened to him. Miles tangled with him but I don't recall any real follow up on that. Maybe God Emperor Doom banished him

Johnny was assumed to be gay IIRC but maybe that was just the weird hair style that Greg Land gave him. Eventually Sue and Ben fall in love in the UFF, another flip on the FF comics where Ben was angry at losing out on a chance to gain Sue's affection, something that was dropped pretty quickly. Later Stan and Jack introduced Alicia anyway. The relationship with Sue and Reed got truly bizarre at the end also when she kind of forced Reed into getting her pregnant IIRC.

Ultimate Doom was terrible. But then I don't know if there's a single Ultimate version of any villain (USM, UXM, Ult, UFF) worth salvaging. Well Ultimate Loki had his moments I suppose. The most enduring villain was The Maker.

The Ultimate Fantastic Four comics had a problem in that it was too similar to The Ultimates in looks, theme, and setting. The problem with Ultimate Marvel was that SHIELD was behind everything and everyone. So in Ultimate FF, the Baxter Building was a SHIELD owned and SHIELD aligned project. What that meant was that everything became a SHIELD story and Nick Fury story, and that made everything feel same-y after the time. You'd have the same images of the Triskellion the same beats of Nick Fury insulting and going alpha-male over people, and then doing something horrible only for that to be justified and glamorized, and then everyone strikes cool poses like the latest action movies (where old classic marvel looked like dated action movies) and it stunk. Everyone worked for Ultimate Fury eventually. Millar's Ultimates was serious and humorless (except for the unintentional kind). The UFF was also serious and humorless. Obviously the failure of Ultimate Fantastic Four to catch on ultimately allowed license to do radical stuff with it like having Ultimate Reed go evil as The Maker, and having Sue and Ben Grimm hook up.

Ultimate Fantastic Four is illustrative of some of the failures of the overall Ult. Marvel project. For all the talk and guff about the idea that Ultimate Marvel was a ground-up 21st Century take on these characters, for the most part you still had at the outset mostly the same WASP looking take on heroes. There were exceptions, Nick Fury being the biggest, but if you look at the Fantastic Four where given a golden opportunity to redo the Fantastic Four in the 21st Century rather than try and introduce diversity like even the ill-advised 2015 tried to do, they basically did the same team of 4 from the same background as the first, only with a Ben Grimm that no longer seemed to be Jewish (!). They transplanted a family dynamic based in the 50s on college-teen kids living in a special private school and it felt sillier than anyhing before. It basically showed that Ultimate Marvel was all surface and flash, just a coating of contemporaneity without any deep thought to it. It wasn't until Miles Morales that they actually did something to what it originally promised.