Why do people hate Ultimate Marvel?

[Snoop Dogg]

I once tried to read Ultimate Spider-Man and I just despised it... read the first two volumes.

This is TOTALLY unfair on my part, since I haven't read that far -- but I kind of hate Bendis's Gwen without having seen it and I hate his Mary Jane already. He's roll reversed them, as the Raimi movies did. He made MJ the brainy pretty girl and Gwen the adventurous, punk hot chick. When in the originals, it was Gwen who was the pretty brainy girl and MJ who was the wild hot girl. I understand Gwen being insipid in the original -- and I can see wanting to deepen her -- but what's the point of SWITCHING their rolls?

Likewise, I hate what he's done to Harry and Flash. He didn't deepen them for a modern audience, he just changed them to entirely different characters. It shows... to my mind... a lack of respect. And for me if a property is worth rebooting, it's worth respecting.

And I wasn't wild about Uncle Ben either, frankly. I totally get that he's built up so you care about him. And Ben didn't bother me as much as some others, but again I felt like it was somebody else's Uncle Ben. Not Peter's.

Oh, and I hate Peter. And I don't understand why everybody doesn't know he's Spider-Man.

And, although I like Norman, I completely agree with you about Goblin. And his transformation has NO internal logic for me whatsoever.

I look at Ultimate Spider-Man as a guide in how not to update Spidey for a modern audience. The Spectacular Spider-Man animated series was the way to do it.

because the point of an alternate universe running parallel to your mainline books is that you should do things differently in order to give your book a reason to be read instead of trying to regurgitate stuff that hasn't even gone away because it's still part of the other spider-man books being published

[Ultimate Captain America]

This is TOTALLY unfair on my part, since I haven't read that far -- but I kind of hate Bendis's Gwen without having seen it and I hate his Mary Jane already. He's roll reversed them, as the Raimi movies did. He made MJ the brainy pretty girl and Gwen the adventurous, punk hot chick. When in the originals, it was Gwen who was the pretty brainy girl and MJ who was the wild hot girl. I understand Gwen being insipid in the original -- and I can see wanting to deepen her -- but what's the point of SWITCHING their rolls?

Too bad, because Gwen is now a punk, and that's the way she will stay.

[Iron Maiden]

First off Dracula isn’t infamous in Romania.

Of course he is, in both the RW and in the fictional world of comics. How would he not be???

Second it is disputed later if he is a descendant of Vlad Dracula later on.

Disputed by who? If you are talking about the UFF Van Damme ancestry, Victor's father had detailed knowledge of the family. I don't recall it ever being retracted in the Ultimate line so you will have to cite your sources.

Third it was his ancestor not a distant relative. Last the Dracula clan began to spread across Europe and married many different peoples including gypsies

We only see mention of one marriage with a "gypsy". We have no clue as to the rest of the family lineage and how they connect. Distant relative and distant ancestor are almost negligible at this point.



The Ultimate Universe has a Dracula....he was named as the father of Ultimate Morbius but I don't recall him making an on panel appearance. One would have to assume he is a from a branch of the family that Victor Van Damme's father mentions.

Sorry I don’t know every single fantastic four book off the back of my hand.

Then don't make declarative statements of something of which you have no knowledge. When you make statements that is easily proved to wrong like this:

Also Victor Von Doom’s father being loving and dying for him was introduced until 2006. UFF 7 showed Damme’s origin in 2004

Then don't complain about being called out on it. Doom's origin was told long before 2006 and has had reprints in very versions. Byrne revisited it during his Fantastic Four run, mostly retelling the Lee/Kirby story in FF annual #2. It was evident back then how much Werner Von Doom cared for his son. He wrapped him in his own clothing to keep in warm. I would even argue that his father's death effected Victor more so than his mother's. The life long rage against the world started with his father's death.

Regardless I don’t see what’s wrong with making Doom’s father bad. As someone else said Dr Doom has a draco in leather syndrome.

It never works to claim that a character that has been around 6 decades is influence by a far more recent creation....and Doom doesn't wear leather. Even when he did it was long before Harry Potter was created.

There is nothing wrong with the ultimate universe going a different direction with Doom. They made him more intimidating and stronger and I honestly liked his horse legs. Besides he still takes over Latveria and turns it into the 9th richest country just like 616. The only difference is Damme has a self entitled ego because he’s the descendant of the legendary prince

Different isn't always better. We currently have an Eisner nominated series of a Doctor Doom who doesn't have goat legs (it has connotations to Lucifer and this is why Ellis used it) who came from humble beginnings and staged a successful coup of Latveria. He made himself king by right of conquest, in the good old medieval style.

There's been no fan interest to see the return of Ultimate Doom. I wouldn't mind if he did return and they forgot about the one we did get from Millar/Bendis/Ellis and others.

On top of that having him get his powers through the transporter accident which he caused instead of magic stays more in line with the F4 theme of being more sci fi than mystical. And likewise if Doom was a scientist why would he trust mystic arts? Regardless you also claim a problem with Victor Van Damme is born evil when his mother cursed him (probably mentioned before Book of Doom like everything else here) so don’t act like Von Doom wasn’t born evil. I actually like the inverse of Damme and Doom. Van Damme only became a self entitled prick because of his father while Von Doom became a self entitled prick despite his father

Doom didn't get any powers from the accident. He went to college to gain his skills in science that are on par with Reed despite not having the advantages of a wealthy father like Reed. He studied the mystical arts first from his mother's books, then from the mysterious sect in Tibet and from various experts over the years like Caligostro, Morgan Le Fey and Doctor Strange. Doom seems magic as just as another field of study....and why not? So does Doctor Strange (who studied medicine) Jericho Drumm (MD of psychology)

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Don't people mostly love Ultimate Spidey though? I know i do.

And i'm not one who usually praise Bendis about anything lol.

I can't say i miss the rest of the line though.

Ultimate Spider-Man is liked and valued in general. To the extent people have issue it has more to do with its influence than its content. Bendis-Bagley's run on USM is the most influential take on Spider-Man in the 21st Century, nobody else comes close -- not JMS, not Slott -- and overall you can say Bendis is the most influential voice on Spider-Man after Lee/Ditko/Romita. Every adaptation of Spider-Man that came after 2000's Ultimate Spider-Man, every game, every movie, every cartoon in some way and form was influenced by Bendis' run on USM. The drive to make Spider-Man exclusively a high school teenage superhero which wasn't a thing before, can be traced to Bendis. Remember that originally Lee-Ditko's Peter Parker graduated in issue 28, and even then most of the issues of Lee-Ditko's run focused on Peter working at the Daily Bugle and very little of it dealt with high school. Bendis is essentially the creator of high school Spider-Man and to the extent people think that Peter is a high school superhero, Bendis is far more the author of that than even Stan Lee is. He wrote a more immature and incompetent version of Peter than existed in Lee-Ditko's run.

That bit about how everyone in Ultimate Spider-Man immediately thinks Spider-Man is a teenage kid and learn his secret identity...well in the original comic, Goblin had to create a special gas to dial away Peter's spider-sense since that always warned Peter whenever someone was about to find his secret...and Goblin's reaction on learning who Spider-Man was is pretty telling:

ASM #39 - Norman finds ID.jpg

Goblin's thought bubbles reacting in surprise to Spider-Man being so young, implies and confirms that Spider-Man was fairly competent and capable at convincing bad guys that he was older than he was. So the negative influence of Bendis on the depictions of Spider-Man is definitely a thing. The stuff that happened in the Garfield movies, all that Richard Parker stuff and so on can be traced to Bendis making Richard the creator of Venom. Spider-Man in the MCU being a shoeshine boy for Iron Man also has its seeds there. Having said that, a work can be good and excellent and still have a negative influence and Ultimate Spider-Man has been misread and misunderstood by people...like for instance people saying Bendis' Ultimate MJ is closer to classic Gwen are pretty ignorant (mostly because Bendis hated classical Gwen, which he said openly). And in the grand scheme of things, Bendis' begat Miles Morales, who is Peter's legacy character and as in ITSV he's a positive beacon. The issue is that people keep drawing from the well of Bendis rather than going back to the Lee-Ditko era or the 616 Era and so on.

High school Spider-Man had a novelty and freshness when Bendis did it in 2000, but it's not cool when it literally starts to overwrite the original classic version of Spider-Man which at the end of the day sold more and was read more than Bendis' run on USM was.

[TheCape]

So in essence, Ultimate Spider-Man is for Spider-Man fans what post crisis is to Superman fans.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So in essence, Ultimate Spider-Man is for Spider-Man fans what post crisis is to Superman fans.

I guess. There's a difference because with DC, whenever they do their Ultimate Universe, that actually replaces the existing universe. Superman in the Golden Age is not the same character as Silver Age Superman who isn't the same as Post-Crisis Superman who isn't the same as New 52 Superman. In a sense the Silver Age DC Universe was the Ultimate Universe of its day. Take a bunch of characters reboot them with contemporary '50s concerns, and more up-to-date costumes (Barry Allen and Hal Jordan broke the cape ceiling and became the first hit heroes without capes). What DC did however was make the Silver Age into a separate continuity and universe in the famous Flash of Two Worlds story, whereas Marvel is quite insistent that everything happens in 616 Continuity. Among DC fans of a certain type, the Silver Age version has a kind of glory and so on but to be honest it wasn't different from Post-Crisis and I actually prefer the Post-Crisis DC Universe, circa Tower of Babel, more than the earlier versions.

With Post-Crisis Superman, he eventually came to be accepted as "the" comics Superman, the only one with legitimacy. The Superman of Byrne's The Man of Steel who fought Doomsday and died, came back to life, married Lois, led the Justice League in Grant Morrison's run, humiliated the Elite, sang to Darkseid in Final Crisis, and then came back with Lois, and their newborn kid Jonathan. Lot of continuity real-estate is tied to this version of Superman which simply can't be replaced or traded away. Which is why New 52 crashed and burned. Visually New 52 felt very inspired by Ultimate Marvel and it sucked majorly. Whereas Ultimate Spider-Man never displaced 616 Spider-Man. To an extent, BND Spider-Man was influenced by Ultimate Spider-Man and they cited Bendis' run as a touchstone but it's not quite the same thing because BND Spider-Man misread Bendis (well misread everything to be honest).

At the end of the day, Ultimate Spider-Man is a terrific comic and worth reading but it should be accepted and liked for what it is, and shouldn't be the only influence and guiding light on Spider-Man. It's a product of the late 90s and early 2000s and that's that.

[Dboi2001]

Of course he is, in both the RW and in the fictional world of comics. How would he not be???

Because in Romania he is seen as a good king? I'm talking about the historical Vlad the Impaler not the fictional vampire prince "Dracula"

Disputed by who? If you are talking about the UFF Van Damme ancestry, Victor's father had detailed knowledge of the family. I don't recall it ever being retracted in the Ultimate line so you will have to cite your sources.

I remember reading somewhere that Dracula being related to him was disputed. IDK Maybe it was like Ultimate Iron Man being retconned

We only see mention of one marriage with a "gypsy". We have no clue as to the rest of the family lineage and how they connect. Distant relative and distant ancestor are almost negligible at this point.

OK what is your standard for for how romani he has to be? And he said she was an ancestor

It never works to claim that a character that has been around 6 decades is influence by a far more recent creation....and Doom doesn't wear leather. Even when he did it was long before Harry Potter was created.

You didn't answer my question why it was a mistake to make Victor's father bad? And again you really do you honestly expect a character literally named Dr Victor Von Doom? And for the most part Dr Doom's gray morality is overstated

Different isn't always better. We currently have an Eisner nominated series of a Doctor Doom who doesn't have goat legs (it has connotations to Lucifer and this is why Ellis used it) who came from humble beginnings and staged a successful coup of Latveria. He made himself king by right of conquest, in the good old medieval style.

Didn't say it was also doesn't make it bad either just different. It is not like the main Dr Doom got goat legs Ultimate Fantastic Four is an alternate universe. Even then 1610 Dr Doom also became ruler of Latervia and turned it into one of the most prosperous countries

There's been no fan interest to see the return of Ultimate Doom. I wouldn't mind if he did return and they forgot about the one we did get from Millar/Bendis/Ellis and others.

Neither do I because he served his purpose in the Ultimate universe and it'd be redundant and pointless to bring him back

Doom didn't get any powers from the accident. He went to college to gain his skills in science that are on par with Reed despite not having the advantages of a wealthy father like Reed. He studied the mystical arts first from his mother's books, then from the mysterious sect in Tibet and from various experts over the years like Caligostro, Morgan Le Fey and Doctor Strange. Doom seems magic as just as another field of study....and why not? So does Doctor Strange (who studied medicine) Jericho Drumm (MD of psychology)

I'm talking about Van Damme not Von Doom. I know Von Doom didn't get his power from any accident just got a tiny scar (though it should be mentioned Van Damme intended the transporter to go 'wrong' so he would get his powers). And it doesn't make sense because why would Dr Doom trust mysticism? He was a man of science while mysticism is superstition. Dr Strange only went to Tibet because he was desperate and lost the use of his hands and Dr Voodoo is a stereotype. It's obvious Kirby and Lee wanted Doom to be a stereotypical german mad scientist and the character evolved from there. Not to mention the contrast that the Fantastic Four are scientists and their villains are all sci fi based with Dr Doom being straight up magical

[Iron Maiden]

Because in Romania he is seen as a good king? I'm talking about the historical Vlad the Impaler not the fictional vampire prince "Dracula"

I was referring to both actually. Vlad III is infamous because in other countries, and even among modern day Romanians, he is seen as barbaric for impaling thousands of people. Undoubtedly some will see him has heroic because the Ottoman Empire was also considered quite cruel even for the Middle Ages. But Vlad Dracul is certainly not going to be considered for sainthood.

OK what is your standard for for how romani he has to be? And he said she was an ancestor

In this case, the same standard as for Elizabeth Warren. Her claim about having a Native American ancestor was pretty much discounted by most people. One relation many generations back should not gain you the claim of being part of a minority. We can see from Victor Van Damme's ancestral home in those panels I posted that he obviously is surrounded by the trappings of wealth and privilege. Though young Victor Von Doom's situation is framed more like a dark fairy tale setting, is closer to the reality of today's Roma population in Europe.

You didn't answer my question why it was a mistake to make Victor's father bad? And again you really do you honestly expect a character literally named Dr Victor Von Doom? And for the most part Dr Doom's gray morality is overstated

Tell that to the writers like Stan Lee, Jonathan Hickman, Roger Stern, Christopher Cantwell, etc. It is the part that makes Doom more interesting to them. Look up their interviews on the subject. Gerry Conway says he sees him as more of an anti hero. But you have to realize that Doom has been interpreted by many authors so there are always going to be appearances where he is just used as the bad guy guest star of the month to make the lead look good.

It wasn't that I thought making Victor's father an cruel and abusive was bad or a mistake. It just didn't make him terribly interesting and nothing further was done with it after issue #7. Is he still alive? Did Victor kill him or get revenger somehow? Does he still fear him or did he see him in a different light as an adult?

Didn't say it was also doesn't make it bad either just different. It is not like the main Dr Doom got goat legs Ultimate Fantastic Four is an alternate universe. Even then 1610 Dr Doom also became ruler of Latervia and turned it into one of the most prosperous countries

Ah, so a copy of the original. Ellis did try something different by placing Victor Van Damme in a shanty community in Europe, which are still a problem in some areas even today. We have a similar situation in San Francisco for example, with the homeless living in makeshift homes out in the streets. Victor Van Damme went from being a boy living an mansion to living on the streets of Brussels. But then that was all abandoned in later appearances. It seemed like they couldn't make up their minds as to who this other Victor was supposed to be.

I'm talking about Van Damme not Von Doom. I know Von Doom didn't get his power from any accident just got a tiny scar (though it should be mentioned Van Damme intended the transporter to go 'wrong' so he would get his powers). And it doesn't make sense because why would Dr Doom trust mysticism? He was a man of science while mysticism is superstition. Dr Strange only went to Tibet because he was desperate and lost the use of his hands and Dr Voodoo is a stereotype. It's obvious Kirby and Lee wanted Doom to be a stereotypical german mad scientist and the character evolved from there. Not to mention the contrast that the Fantastic Four are scientists and their villains are all sci fi based with Dr Doom being straight up magical

When Stan and Jack introduced Doctor Doom in issue #5, they signaled right off the bat that Doom was a master of both science and magic on the very first page. But it is to be noted that Stan and Jack mostly emphasized his science in his duels with Reed. When we first meet him he amazes Reed with his creation of the time platform. A few issues later we see Reed even dismantles it and takes it back to the Baxter Building to study it. In issue #5, Doom has Namor plant some devices in the Baxter Building that causes it to defy gravity and starts propelling it into outer space. In issue #10, we see Doom develop a shrinking ray to use against the FF. Later we see him build the power siphon that transfers the Surfer's power to himself. Later he builds a deadly robot army. For the most part Doom tries to match Reed science for science with his own skills in that field. We really don't see Doom using conjuring spell magic until Gerry Conway's story in Astonishing Tales #8.

[Alan2099]

know Von Doom didn't get his power from any accident just got a tiny scar

That's be retconned, un-retconned, and nre-retconned several times. I don't know what the current status of it is.

And it doesn't make sense because why would Dr Doom trust mysticism? He was a man of science while mysticism is superstition.

It's not superstition to Doom. It's just another skill. Doom's mother was a sorceress and he idolized her. On top of that, when he was still just a young boy and in his learning phase, he had access to must as many magical books as he did science. Why would he not use them?

[Uncanny Mutie]

I've never shared the high esteem that Ultimate Spider-Man is held in. Bendis took 40 years of sweat and blood, cherry-picked the parts he liked, and acted like he created something. The Marvel Adventures Spider-Man did the same thing at the same time with twice the fun and none of the pretension.

I agree 1,000%. I'm glad somebody said this and didn't just go along with popular opinion.

[Iron Maiden]

That's be retconned, un-retconned, and nre-retconned several times. I don't know what the current status of it is.

I don't know about you but I think it's best to completely disregard what Fraction did when he rewrote Doom's accident and surrounding events in his lackluster Fantastic Four run.

[ChaosIncarnate]

care to expand on how Millar’s stuff was edgy garbage?

Hmmmm let’s see.

Wolverine being a sex predator.

Captain America’s portrayal I can understand because he’s being written as a guy that was brought up in a different time, with different culture and values. But he just comes off as an unlikeable asshole, with how he treats Bruce Banner, and his xenophobic portrayal.

Hank Pym’s abusive relationship with Jan was exaggerated to a ridiculous degree. I mean come on he sprays her with bug spray for god’s sake.

Hulk is a rapist cannibal.

Red Skull throws a baby out the window.

Like I’m sorry but it’s kind of hard to go back and read Mark Millar’s work on ultimate marvel. A lot of the stuff he changed might not have seemed that bad for the time period it came out in, but it really does not hold up now. We’ve moved past the need for an edgy universe now. The Ultimate Universe is a product of its time, and is no longer necessary in my opinion. And I say this as someone who used to prefer it over the 616 universe.

[Dboi2001]

Hmmmm let’s see.

Wolverine being a sex predator.

Captain America’s portrayal I can understand because he’s being written as a guy that was brought up in a different time, with different culture and values. But he just comes off as an unlikeable asshole, with how he treats Bruce Banner, and his xenophobic portrayal.

Hank Pym’s abusive relationship with Jan was exaggerated to a ridiculous degree. I mean come on he sprays her with bug spray for god’s sake.

Hulk is a rapist cannibal.

Red Skull throws a baby out the window.

Like I’m sorry but it’s kind of hard to go back and read Mark Millar’s work on ultimate marvel. A lot of the stuff he changed might not have seemed that bad for the time period it came out in, but it really does not hold up now. We’ve moved past the need for an edgy universe now. The Ultimate Universe is a product of its time, and is no longer necessary in my opinion. And I say this as someone who used to prefer it over the 616 universe.

1. How was he a sex predator? Jean Gray was 19

2. How the hell was Steve xenophobic? He showed great admiration for Captain Britain and the other countries Captains. And how he treated Banner? What when he kicked him for injecting himself with the hulk serum and killing 800 people? Keep in mind the people didn't view the hulk and Banner as different people

3. And he is portrayed as being a bad person. He also regretted immediately and more than got his comeuppances. He also only sprayed her because she was zapping him and telling him to drop dead

4. Yes and is depicted as a monster. After Banner escapes SHIELD he is able to control the Hulk and that point is dropped

5. So because a villain does something evil makes him edgy?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

1. How was he a sex predator? Jean Gray was 19

He kept hitting on her all the time even after that, well after she broke it off, and he tried to murder her boyfriend to get into her pants. When he and Peter Parker exchanged bodies, he tried to have sex with Ultimate Mary Jane and likewise ogled cheerleaders at Peter's school.

[Omega Alpha]

1. How was he a sex predator? Jean Gray was 19

Actually, she was originally 17, but on trades Marvel changed it to 19 after complaints.