Why do people hate Ultimate Marvel?

[Dboi2001]

You obviously have an issue with "political correctness" and that explains the nostalgia for an era which trafficked in taboo-crossing crude taste storytelling.

I have an issue when political correctness hurts a story or argue it is bad. And you act like the 2000s were the 1940s

I think he watches too much Southpark.

That is ad homenin attack

Because of the power differential in the workplace. When Stark seduces his interns, he has soft power and other exercising over them while also contributing and perpetrating a workplace culture where women are seen as arm candy first and as coworkers and colleagues second.

Stark didn't date interns he dated celebrities and models and later engaged with Black Widow. At best he passed a wink and nod to them.

Why do people and fans assume that Lee and Kirby were some kind of morons who lacked sophistication and intuition?

I don't but during the silver age and the 60s comics were just serial adventures for younger audiences. Sure some of them had some subtle messages like the Uncanny X Men but for the most part they were just fun adventure books. If you want a sophisticated story don't name your villain Dr Doom (who wasn't even a real doctor and they had to retcon it later that he granted himself a PhD). His backstory about his family didn't become a thing until 2006. Yes it was an interesting idea of having Latveria being a perfect country and wanting to replicate that for the world did reel him in and somewhat justify his goal of world domination but he certainly was never a hero type. He was the definition of giving up freedom in favor of safety. Even in his 2006 origin they make it clear he was a sociopath because of his mother's death (and btw his father was Romani)

Did showing that Doom was an effective albeit authoritarian fascist who did turn his country from a tiny backwater country to a thriving utopia and just wanted that for the world? Yes but at the end of the day he was still a fascist megalomaniac who wanted total world domination even if he promised peace and prosperity. The idea of Doom being a sympathetic villain and a potential hero didn't really take off until the 90s because at the end of the day he was still a fascist dictator

MCU took inspiration from everything. Avengers 2012 mashed together the first ever Avengers issue where Loki harasses the Avengers and makes them all team up against him, while borrowing the name and concept of a Chitauri army from Ultimates (albeit changing their powers and abilities to no longer make them Skrull knockoff). But in general, its borrowings from The Ultimates is just from Vol. 1 and even then fairly surface. In general Bryan Hitch, the artist behind the look of the Ultimates was far more influential than the writer Mark Millar. In the grand scheme of things, the MCU evolved and centered on franchises like Guardians of the Galaxy and Black Panther who weren't heavily featured in the Ultimates. The version of Thor we see in the movies is drawn from 616 (JMS' run for the first movie, Simonson's, Kirby's, and Aaron's run for the third). The overarching storyline of the MCU is Jim Starlin's THE INFINITY GAUNTLET which is 616.

The Chitarui were the Skrulls in the Ultimates. Skrull was another name they were called. However I will concede that point.

[shooshoomanjoe]

I liked the entire line, even Ultimatum. But I read it several years after the line ended so I didn't have years of caring about how the characters were fleshed out.

[Agent Z]

Here's what Jack Kirby said about the Hulk and the core of the character:

GROTH:The next character, if I remember correctly, was The Hulk. If I remember correctly you drew a six-issue run of that, then it was cancelled for a little while, then Steve Ditko started it in an anthology book called Tales to Astonish. Can you talk a little bit about how you were involved in creating The Hulk?
KIRBY: The Hulk I created when I saw a woman lift a car. Her baby was caught under the running board of this car. The little child was playing in the gutter and he was crawling from the gutter onto the sidewalk under the running board of this car — he was playing in the gutter. His mother was horrified. She looked from the rear window of the car, and this woman in desperation lifted the rear end of the car. It suddenly came to me that in desperation we can all do that — we can knock down walls, we can go berserk, which we do. You know what happens when we’re in a rage — you can tear a house down. I created a character who did all that and called him the Hulk. I inserted him in a lot of the stories I was doing. Whatever the Hulk was at the beginning I got from that incident. A character to me can’t be contrived. I don’t like to contrive characters. They have to have an element of truth. This woman proved to me that the ordinary person in desperate circumstances can transcend himself and do things that he wouldn’t ordinarily do. I’ve done it myself. I’ve bent steel.

Hulk is meant to embody the strength and determination that exists within us that comes out in extreme situations.Cannibalism isn't that at all.

Hulk is meant to be an ambiguous character and that was the core of his popularity in '60s and '70s where he was an anti-establishment hero. It was quite cathartic to see a rage monster go smorgasbord on the military-industrial complex.

The earlier version of the Hulk was really misanthropic and was very similar to Mr Hyde. And frankly, the Hulk has always been more of a danger to normal than the military-industrial complex. Even if he wasn't a cannibal and a rapist.

Whatever the Hulk meant in the 60s and 70s is irrelevant to how he is written now.

[Agent Z]

IF you're referring to the origin story in FF annual #2, that was 1964 so is not a big "gotcha" to say it is dated. It reminds you of the depictions of "gypsies" in the old Universal horror movies. I think it is unfortunate that writers don't delve into his Romani heritage and maybe there is some reluctance there.

But remember this. Jack Kirby served in the army during WWII, in fact in one of General Patton's divisions that were pushing there way through France. Since he could draw they used him as an advance scout to map out what lay ahead. One thing that shocked him was when he was scouting and came across a stockade of prisoners left behind from the retreat of the German forces in the town. So I'd say Kirby probably saw a lot of the country sides in those years when he was in the service and it's not that much of a stretch to surmise that he used his first hand view of Europe in those days back in 1943-1945. I think he and Stan both treat the Romani characters respectfully in that brief origin and it's my belief that they shared authorship on this as Stan frequently would have Jack block things out for him to script.

Overstated shade of gray? I question that too. Things frequently happen in cycles in comics. You'll have some bat **** crazy stuff going on with Doom or you will get something different like when Gerry Conway writes him in Astonishing Tales #8 or in the arc with MODOK in his Sub-Mariner run. Gerry Conway has said in an interview piece for the Masterworks edition of his Sub-Mariner story that he views Doom as more of an anti-hero. His Doom is definitely more introspective. And you can't dismiss Roger Stern's GN Triumph and Torment either.

We could go on to the Doom 2099 or Infamous Iron Man but this sidebar is enough for now since this is not the main topic. These shades of grey have been deliberately painted by various writers over the years


I really miss the days when they had thought balloons because sometimes they would act as a counterpoint to a character's actions. We could go on to the Doom 2099 series but this sidebar is enough for now since this is not the main topic.

I was referring to how most of Doom's stories about his Romani heritage are used to explain his magical powers. Even Kirby and Lee aren't perfect given they still refer to Romani by a racial slur.

As for the image you posted, this type of grandstanding by the writer is less an exploration of gray morality and more a weak attempt to soothe fans' fears that Doom isn't a complete bastard. Catwoman and the Rogues are better examples of gray morality because they're nowhere near the monster Doom is even when they aren't heroic.

[PCN24454]

The earlier version of the Hulk was really misanthropic and was very similar to Mr Hyde. And frankly, the Hulk has always been more of a danger to normal than the military-industrial complex. Even if he wasn't a cannibal and a rapist.

The real issue with Ultimate Hulk.

[Alan2099]

You know I should add that cannibalism is a general theme across Ultimate Marvel. Hulk is a cannibal but Ultimate Magneto talks about raising humans as livestock and mentions offhand that he's eaten humans as a gourmet meal. Ultimate Blob of course ate the Wasp in The Ultimates.

There was a lot of cannibalism in the Ultimate universe.

It was kinda weird.

[From The Shadows]

I never really saw that anyone hated it. I liked it in the beginning. Like X-Men and Spider-man, didn't read any other stuff though like The Avengers.

[From The Shadows]

There was a lot of cannibalism in the Ultimate universe.

It was kinda weird.

That was from Ultimate Avengers right? That and other reasons is why I'm glad I haven't read it.

[scilover]

yeah, that right. Not all ultimate is bad. Only few.

[Ultimate Captain America]

Why do people hate Ultimate Marvel? For a simple reason: some people hate the things that are new, and prefer to read the same comic book story a thousand times, either literally or in "new" stories ("new" between quotation marks) that simply retread the same story once again. The original stuff is treated as the epitome of perfection, and anything that deviates from it is an abomination, simply because it deviated from it. People like this are the majority of comic book readers, including many ones who got to actually work in Marvel and run things. That's why the industry still revolves around characters older than many of us, and no change made after the 1980s (not even death) ever sticks. Some readers do like innovation, but are a minority, and always lose in the end. Ultimate Marvel, the Initiative, married Peter Parker, life-bringer Galactus, time-displaced X-Men, Infamous Iron Man, Old Man Logan, Laura as Wolverine, Jane Foster as Thor, Sam Wilson as Cap, Flash Thompson as Venom, Punisher with War Machine armor, even "I am Groot", etc; all paid the price of deviating from the sacred texts. There are even guys waiting for Krakoa to fall apart...

[Iron Maiden]

I don't but during the silver age and the 60s comics were just serial adventures for younger audiences. Sure some of them had some subtle messages like the Uncanny X Men but for the most part they were just fun adventure books. If you want a sophisticated story don't name your villain Dr Doom (who wasn't even a real doctor and they had to retcon it later that he granted himself a PhD). His backstory about his family didn't become a thing until 2006. Yes it was an interesting idea of having Latveria being a perfect country and wanting to replicate that for the world did reel him in and somewhat justify his goal of world domination but he certainly was never a hero type. He was the definition of giving up freedom in favor of safety. Even in his 2006 origin they make it clear he was a sociopath because of his mother's death (and btw his father was Romani)
Did showing that Doom was an effective albeit authoritarian fascist who did turn his country from a tiny backwater country to a thriving utopia and just wanted that for the world? Yes but at the end of the day he was still a fascist megalomaniac who wanted total world domination even if he promised peace and prosperity. The idea of Doom being a sympathetic villain and a potential hero didn't really take off until the 90s because at the end of the day he was still a fascist dictator

Where do you get your information from? Don't you know that when Brubaker wrote Books of Doom he got all his information from prior works?? We found out the backstory about Doom's family in Fantastic Four annual #2 back in 1963. Brubaker fleshed it out but the fact that his family were Roma or gypsies as they are called in back then had already been established. Brubaker did not create that out of whole cloth. He very cleverly stitched together information from many sources and added more detail. I assure you that Doom killing a Yeti is a Brubaker addition though.

I would hesitate to cast any aspersions on writers working in an unenlighted era. Gypsy was used quite commonly in film and literature in bygone days.

I will let Revolutionary Jack speak for himself but don't pretend like you're telling him something new!



Even if you didn't know that, surely you know this origin was recapped again in Byrne's run in FF#278 when Doom's memories are played back through a device called the remembrancer. Byrne adds scenes with Valeria who was a Larry Lieber/Roy Thomas creation in MSH #20






As for the designation of a fascist dictator, I think we've seen enough of his governance to say it's nothing more complicated than a monarchy. We've seen burgomiesters as town administrators and the like. When we see him spending the day with young Kristoff he gives him a sample of how he handles affairs. Even more recently after Secret Wars ended he stepped away from the role of the monarchy and appointed a General Karadick to take over. But he proved to be corrupt and was profiteering.

[Ultimate Captain America]

As for Doom... yes, using the word "Doom" as an actual last name is one of the corniest things in comic books. He is good character nonetheless, and his awesomeness can mitigate that somewhat, but yes, the name is really corny. It was a wise call to change it to something else that may sound somewhat similar but being a name that a real person may actually have. I hope that the MCU does a similar thing.

[Vordan]

As for Doom... yes, using the word "Doom" as an actual last name is one of the corniest things in comic books. He is good character nonetheless, and his awesomeness can mitigate that somewhat, but yes, the name is really corny. It was a wise call to change it to something else that may sound somewhat similar but being a name that a real person may actually have. I hope that the MCU does a similar thing.

It’s 2020 mate, Marvel made billions off a villain called “Thanos” who was purple and sought magic jewelry that let him cause a universal extinction. People aren’t ashamed of the comic book campiness anymore, if anything the success of the MCU and the failure of the DCEU has shown that the general audience far prefers movies that adhere more closely to the source material. Dr. Doom is a cool name that people love.

[Iron Maiden]

I think most comic book readers just look past that stuff. It's funny that one prognosticator of the finance world had earned the nickname of Doctor Doom for all his dire warnings about the economy

[Ultimate Captain America]

It’s 2020 mate, Marvel made billions off a villain called “Thanos” who was purple and sought magic jewelry that let him cause a universal extinction. People aren’t ashamed of the comic book campiness anymore, if anything the success of the MCU and the failure of the DCEU has shown that the general audience far prefers movies that adhere more closely to the source material. Dr. Doom is a cool name that people love.

The difference is that "Thanos" is a new word, with no meaning before it named a character.