Why do people hate Ultimate Marvel?

[Marvel Forever]

Marvel needs to do the sensible thing and bring some of the Ultimate Universe characters over into the 616 Marvel Universe.

[PCN24454]

Marvel needs to do the sensible thing and bring some of the Ultimate Universe characters over into the 616 Marvel Universe.

I already think that they shouldn't have ported over anybody. I hate when alternate universes bleed into each other too much.

[Marvel Forever]

I am not asking for a wholesale bleeding of the Ultimate Universe into the 616, but perhaps 10-20 characters.

[Iron Maiden]

I can't come up with 10 or 20 that are worth it. We have Miles and the Maker and I think that should be about it.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Marvel needs to do the sensible thing and bring some of the Ultimate Universe characters over into the 616 Marvel Universe.

But they've already done that.

They brought over Miles Morales, the Maker, and more recently Ultimate Goblin. A while back in one of the X-Men spinoff titles they brought some of the refugees of Ultimate X-Men over and had 616 Sinister kill them off, save for Jimmy Hudson, Ultimate Wolverine's son who I think is still around though hasn't been seen since for ages.

Marvel also replaced classic Nick Fury with a Sam Jackson Fury of their own -- Nick Fury Jr. So there's not much room for Ultimate Fury which is good because that guy's a war criminal several times over.

Who else is worth it bringing over to 616? No one.

[Jack The Tripper]

I am not asking for a wholesale bleeding of the Ultimate Universe into the 616, but perhaps 10-20 characters.

I feel like most Ultimate characters people would like to bring over are just versions of 616 characters, so I personally don't see the point. I could be wrong though, there could be better characters out there but I'm still left sour by Jimmy Hudson being a thing lmao

[Ultimate Captain America]

I can agree with this. Ultimatum was very much the kind of thing the Ultimate Universe was built on. However, I can just picture the people at Marvel sitting around afterwards and thinking "Okay.... so now what do we do?" There's a reason why big crossovers don't have huge body counts.

"What do we do?" Miles Morales, Hickman's Ultimates, the Maker, post-Ultimatum X-Men...

The issue is they killed characters that were never explored.

Why kill Dr. Strange?

To be fair, Dr. Strange (in general) was a bit of an obscure and forgotten character before Bendis included him in "New Avengers".

Except for the fact that the crossover event of Ultimatum was conceived as, and approached with, the spirit of waste disposal. Jeph Loeb and others were told to clear house with Ultimatum and change stuff for titles and characters that were considered dead ends or uninteresting.

Again with whataboutism...why can't Ultimate Marvel defenders accept that the comic wasn't perfect that many parts of it were filled with flaws and that there are valid reasons why that entire line fell out of fashion and dropped out of the mainstream. Even when you admit flaws you have to take shots and claim other stories are worse as if that's somehow a saving grace to be boasted off proudly.

That's a misunderstanding. I'm not pointing that pretending it makes Ultimatum look good. I'm pointing that to illustrate the double standard. There are many bad stories and runs out there, but the usual reaction of the superhero fandom is to reject only those, and not the characters or franchises themselves. For example, consider Aaron's She-Hulk: most people don't like her, but do not think that She-Hulk, in general, sucks. She had great stories and runs in the past, she will likely have others again in the future with other writers, and they will likely check the TV series. But with Ultimate Marvel, the same rule is not followed. It had great stories and characters before Ultimatum, it also had after it; but somehow Ultimatum ruins the whole thing.

Or better yet, what about you? You like Spider-Man, but that character gave you the Clone saga, One More Day, Sins Past, One Moment In Time, Dan Slott, Superior Spider-Man... do you reject the whole of the Spider-Man franchise because of it? And if not, why not?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

To be fair, Dr. Strange (in general) was a bit of an obscure and forgotten character before Bendis included him in "New Avengers".

Luke Cage was an obscure and forgotten character before Bendis included him in "New Avengers" but Doctor Strange was always a more well known figure, always ranking as the top magic guy in the Marvel Universe, and likewise boasting Steve Ditko's most experimental art in the '60s which made him a cult favorite among hippies.

And Bendis including him in New Avengers wasn't the biggest and brightest moment in Strange's publication history.

I'm not pointing that pretending it makes Ultimatum look good.

Glad we agree on this.

I'm pointing that to illustrate the double standard.

It's not a double standard. Fact is that critical judgment doesn't always have a fixed criteria, and different things are judged differently. Not everything is equal or counts for the same.

There are many bad stories and runs out there, but the usual reaction of the superhero fandom is to reject only those, and not the characters or franchises themselves.

Which again is beside the point and irrelevant.

But with Ultimate Marvel, the same rule is not followed. It had great stories and characters before Ultimatum, it also had after it; but somehow Ultimatum ruins the whole thing.

I've said more than a few times that everything in Ultimatum logically proceeds from and is consistent with the worst aspects of Mark Millar's run right from Ultimates Vol. 1 as well as Ultimate X-Men. Ultimatum is not some deviation from Millar everything there flowed logically from the extreme and risible aspects of his run. It's just that Ultimatum brought all that stuff out to see without the great art by Bryan Hitch to distract people and confirmed the rot that was there from the start. In the same way that the final season of Game of Thrones confirmed the flaws and problems in that TV show that had existed for some time but finally confirmed it without anywhere to hide. Ultimatum is the Game of Thrones S8 of comics.

...the Spider-Man franchise...

This thread is about Ultimate Marvel, and Ultimate Marvel is on trial here for its legacy. The legacy of Ultimate Marvel will not be improved by listing all the low points in any other comic title or series. Because that's not how things work.

[Ultimate Captain America]

I've said more than a few times that everything in Ultimatum logically proceeds from and is consistent with the worst aspects of Mark Millar's run right from Ultimates Vol. 1 as well as Ultimate X-Men. Ultimatum is not some deviation from Millar everything there flowed logically from the extreme and risible aspects of his run. It's just that Ultimatum brought all that stuff out to see without the great art by Bryan Hitch to distract people and confirmed the rot that was there from the start.

And what happens in the very first two scenes of an Ultimate comic by Mark Millar after Ultimatum? It's easy to spot the hidden meaning here...

[Anthony W]

Marvel also replaced classic Nick Fury with a Sam Jackson Fury of their own -- Nick Fury Jr. So there's not much room for Ultimate Fury which is good because that guy's a war criminal several times over.

And people still like him more than Marcus...whoops.....Nick Fury Jr

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And what happens in the very first two scenes of an Ultimate comic by Mark Millar after Ultimatum?

Ever heard of the phrase, "doth protest too much". Millar's return to Ultimate after Ultimatum was terrible anyway...characters like Tony's long-lost brother Gregory Stark, a proto-Hulk who was even more rapey and murderous than before..."second verse, same as the first".

It was Hickman who improved stuff when he took over after Fallout.

And people still like him more than Marcus...whoops.....Nick Fury Jr

Who cares? The point is that Nick Fury works best as a peripheral character who gives missions and serves as an instant device to connect and explain stuff for out there stories. Whereas in Ultimate Marvel he was without question the protagonist of the entire universe...and that came at the expense of characters like the actual damn superheroes who should be the focus of these stories. Also Ultimate Fury was a lame stereotype of Samuel Jackson impressions whereas the actual Samuel Jackson being an excellent actor is able to give a more subtle and nuanced performance than a simple record of greatest hits one-liners, closer to his turn as Mace Windu in the prequels (which was Lucas' attempt to have him play a little against type).

[Steel Inquisitor]

It's not a double standard. Fact is that critical judgment doesn't always have a fixed criteria, and different things are judged differently. Not everything is equal or counts for the same.

In media there are no bad characters, only bad writers. It's not the characters faults they're written badly in the Ultimate universe.

Which again is beside the point and irrelevant.

Not really. Ultimate universe being known for its bad things has hurt other fandom accepting it as valid and therefore its characters.

I've said more than a few times that everything in Ultimatum logically proceeds from and is consistent with the worst aspects of Mark Millar's run right from Ultimates Vol. 1 as well as Ultimate X-Men. Ultimatum is not some deviation from Millar everything there flowed logically from the extreme and risible aspects of his run. It's just that Ultimatum brought all that stuff out to see without the great art by Bryan Hitch to distract people and confirmed the rot that was there from the start. In the same way that the final season of Game of Thrones confirmed the flaws and problems in that TV show that had existed for some time but finally confirmed it without anywhere to hide. Ultimatum is the Game of Thrones S8 of comics.

Except this fails to account for the critically acclaimed Bendis' Spider-man, X-men was ok if inconsistent and the FF was good but not great. It wasn't all about edginess and bad writing. Marvel wanted to get rid of the Ultimate 'verse for years, that was simply an easy route to do it and quality control went out the window. That the event focused on the bad aspects of the writing in the brand didn't erase the good. And like GoT S8 the earlier season weren't all terrible if they were it wouldn't have reached that acclaim.

This thread is about Ultimate Marvel, and Ultimate Marvel is on trial here for its legacy. The legacy of Ultimate Marvel will not be improved by listing all the low points in any other comic title or series. Because that's not how things work.

The example was on topic as it compares there writing of one series/character to another. Trials require evidence and arguments which disrupt false narratives, it's not settled by simple opinion. Except they were referencing Ultimate Marvel's good writing, Ult Cap wasn't the one defining it by the line's bad writing - which every comic does. 616 Spider-man is infamous for it.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

In media there are no bad characters, only bad writers. It's not the characters faults they're written badly in the Ultimate universe.

Ultimate Marvel or rather the Ultimates since that's what defenders seem to equate with the entire line were versions of Marvel entirely configured and developed by writers who had freedom to assert their own personality on them, so in the case of Ultimate Marvel...Millar=Ultimates. Whatever issues were wrong with the characters is a problem with Millar because he developed them that way.

Stuff like Pietro and Wanda being incestuous for instance was hinted in Millar's run, in the Ultimate X-Men issues set in the Savage Land when Cyclops defects and Pietro gets upset about Scott having Wanda's eye, it was also hinted in the forgotten miniseries (not that it was memorable) called Ultimate War (basically Ultimates v. Ultimate X-Men). The cannibalism and weird violence, where the violence just wasn't presented in a tonally appropriated way and seemed there for crude jokes and sensationalism was there at the start with Ultimate Hulk being a cannibal for no reason, Magneto talking about putting humans on a larder. Jeph Loeb didn't write Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum well but again he did write the characters that Millar configured. There's nothing to declare as OOC for Millar's version. Everything that was bad and risible in Ultimatum originated in Millar's run and Millar's take on the characters.

Not really. Ultimate universe being known for its bad things has hurt other fandom accepting it as valid and therefore its characters.

People really need to stop equating the Ultimate Universe with the Ultimates, or rather Millar's Ultimates. Fans accepted Hickman's work on The Maker, and Bendis' work on Ultimate Spider-Man and Miles Morales perfectly fine.

It wasn't all about edginess and bad writing.

Millar's Ultimates certainly was.

The example was on topic as it compares there writing of one series/character to another. Trials require evidence and arguments which disrupt false narratives, it's not settled by simple opinion. Except they were referencing Ultimate Marvel's good writing, Ult Cap wasn't the one defining it by the line's bad writing - which every comic does. 616 Spider-man is infamous for it.

Here's the thing...in the grand scheme of things, the most notable and memorable images of Ultimate Marvel, i.e. the Ultimates and also Ultimate X-Men is "Does this A Stand for France?" as well as "Blob biting the Wasp's ribcage open and chewing her flesh like chicken". Both of these images are full page splashes. What other moment of Ultimate Cap is there that is as defining as that? What positive affirmative moment is there in Ultimate Marvel for Ultimate Cap that exists comparable to the many moments of similar nature for 616 Marvel? The answer is that there doesn't seem to be any. Ultimate Marvel trafficked in exploitation in presenting a very unkind, a very dour, and unfriendly picture of the genre, and it attracted fans by being politically incorrect.

[Ultimate Captain America]

Ever heard of the phrase, "doth protest too much". Millar's return to Ultimate after Ultimatum was terrible anyway...characters like Tony's long-lost brother Gregory Stark, a proto-Hulk who was even more rapey and murderous than before..."second verse, same as the first".

It was Hickman who improved stuff when he took over after Fallout.

That's just your opinion, and it's besides the point. You claim that Ultimatum is the logical consequence of Millar's Ultimates, but Millar himself (via his character Nick Fury, in a metafictional way) says the opposite thing.

Who cares? The point is that Nick Fury works best as a peripheral character who gives missions and serves as an instant device to connect and explain stuff for out there stories. Whereas in Ultimate Marvel he was without question the protagonist of the entire universe...and that came at the expense of characters like the actual damn superheroes who should be the focus of these stories. Also Ultimate Fury was a lame stereotype of Samuel Jackson impressions whereas the actual Samuel Jackson being an excellent actor is able to give a more subtle and nuanced performance than a simple record of greatest hits one-liners, closer to his turn as Mace Windu in the prequels (which was Lucas' attempt to have him play a little against type).

Again, your opinion... and Samuel Jackson himself does not share it.

Ultimate Marvel or rather the Ultimates since that's what defenders seem to equate with the entire line were versions of Marvel entirely configured and developed by writers who had freedom to assert their own personality on them, so in the case of Ultimate Marvel...Millar=Ultimates. Whatever issues were wrong with the characters is a problem with Millar because he developed them that way.

Stuff like Pietro and Wanda being incestuous for instance was hinted in Millar's run, in the Ultimate X-Men issues set in the Savage Land when Cyclops defects and Pietro gets upset about Scott having Wanda's eye, it was also hinted in the forgotten miniseries (not that it was memorable) called Ultimate War (basically Ultimates v. Ultimate X-Men). The cannibalism and weird violence, where the violence just wasn't presented in a tonally appropriated way and seemed there for crude jokes and sensationalism was there at the start with Ultimate Hulk being a cannibal for no reason, Magneto talking about putting humans on a larder. Jeph Loeb didn't write Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum well but again he did write the characters that Millar configured. There's nothing to declare as OOC for Millar's version. Everything that was bad and risible in Ultimatum originated in Millar's run and Millar's take on the characters.

Pietro has ALWAYS been, since Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created him, an overprotective zealot in everything related to his sister. When Loeb made then an incestuous couple, he simply made explicit what everybody already thought about them. Hulk has always been supposed to be a monster; his portrayal in the Ultimates really captures the idea better than the stories that treat him as a misunderstood hero (and don't get me started on that nonsense that "Hulk never killed anybody because Banner subconsciously made calculations to avoid casualties"). As for Magneto, the Xavier / Magneto dichotomy really only works if Magneto is the VILLAIN, not if the Brotherhood is just a secondary X-Men team.

Here's the thing...in the grand scheme of things, the most notable and memorable images of Ultimate Marvel, i.e. the Ultimates and also Ultimate X-Men is "Does this A Stand for France?" as well as "Blob biting the Wasp's ribcage open and chewing her flesh like chicken". Both of these images are full page splashes. What other moment of Ultimate Cap is there that is as defining as that? What positive affirmative moment is there in Ultimate Marvel for Ultimate Cap that exists comparable to the many moments of similar nature for 616 Marvel? The answer is that there doesn't seem to be any. Ultimate Marvel trafficked in exploitation in presenting a very unkind, a very dour, and unfriendly picture of the genre, and it attracted fans by being politically incorrect.

Sorry, I base my opinions on complete works, not on memes.

[Agent Z]

It's always strange to me what some people consider a protagonist. Ultimate Nick Fury being a recurring element across the Ultimate Universe doesn't make him the protagonist anymore that Wolverine was the protagonist of the 616 universe with how often they shoved him into other books and even advertised him on issues where he didn't even appear in the story.